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gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 3:10:38 PM
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I know what you mean, Lynda.
This is one time that the word "awesome" is appropriate.
The people who know what they're looking at here, know what a treasure he is. It's just a matter of time....
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Edited by - gabriele on 22 Mar 2008 7:13:01 PM |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 4:55:03 PM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Maranello is a 3/4 brother to US National Champion Enzo...same dam but sire is Magnum Psyche...must be nice? Would think he would be somewhat more elegant, upright with better tail carriage, legs and feet? Lots of color, too. Not a wishy washy chestnut.
Davenport import Haffia is an Abayan Sherrak....
Haidee is a Menaghy...from the desert by Mr. Skene in Aleppo to the UK had only one foal, *Naomi who went to Randolf Huntington...She is prevalent in US pedigrees. A wonderful representative of this line is the US National Champion Mare, NW Siena Psyche, possibly one of the most magnificent and beautiful mares I've ever seen.
A footnote of sorts...I think it was Roger Upton who told me decades ago that thanks to Carl Raswan many people are under the impression that the Menaghys are very fast and very homely-the racehorses of the Arabians. Well, turns out that one of Raswan's best friends in the desert was a deadly enemy of those tribes that bred Menaghys. The horses are fast and considered by many in the desert to be the most beautiful line! Typical example? Ferseyn! *Ferda, Farasin and their descendants.
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Yes Gari, just off of video and pictures I would say Maranello has a brightness about him both in looks and color!!
"Abayan Sherrak" I can't find a whole lot on this strain...where does it come into the mix as in major attributes connected with it? Interesting about the Menaghy definition, definitly agree that decendants of the 3 you listed in no way resemble the look trait associated with the Menaghy strain as defined by Mr. Raswan.
and one more if you don't mind.......tail female... El Dahma? |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 12:08:57 AM
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Originally posted by willowviewOriginally posted by Egbert
Maranello is a 3/4 brother to US National Champion Enzo...same dam but sire is Magnum Psyche...must be nice? Would think he would be somewhat more elegant, upright with better tail carriage, legs and feet? Lots of color, too. Not a wishy washy chestnut.
Davenport import Haffia is an Abayan Sherrak....
Haidee is a Menaghy...from the desert by Mr. Skene in Aleppo to the UK had only one foal, *Naomi who went to Randolf Huntington...She is prevalent in US pedigrees. A wonderful representative of this line is the US National Champion Mare, NW Siena Psyche, possibly one of the most magnificent and beautiful mares I've ever seen.
A footnote of sorts...I think it was Roger Upton who told me decades ago that thanks to Carl Raswan many people are under the impression that the Menaghys are very fast and very homely-the racehorses of the Arabians. Well, turns out that one of Raswan's best friends in the desert was a deadly enemy of those tribes that bred Menaghys. The horses are fast and considered by many in the desert to be the most beautiful line! Typical example? Ferseyn! *Ferda, Farasin and their descendants.
_____________________________________________ Yes Gari, just off of video and pictures I would say Maranello has a brightness about him both in looks and color!! "Abayan Sherrak" I can't find a whole lot on this strain...where does it come into the mix as in major attributes connected with it? Interesting about the Menaghy definition, definitly agree that decendants of the 3 you listed in no way resemble the look trait associated with the Menaghy strain as defined by Mr. Raswan. and one more if you don't mind.......tail female... El Dahma?
Ok, I went into this earlier but the Abayan strain is one of those enjoying a bunch of different spellings...Gazder spells it Abeyeh sherrrakieh others simply Abayyah or Abbeian and even Obeyan in Russia or Poland, if I recall correctly...all depending on the country the horse was exported to and how they spelled the strain PHONETICALLY as of course, they didn't write in Arabic.! In the UK the Abeyan was represented by Queen of Sheba...and in the US a horse that was a good example was Kaborr bred by Deedie Wrigley. Attributes? Elegance would be the most descriptive of the strain, extreme type, very fast and light on their feet. Oh and one more thing...the stallions of this strain are on a par with the mares! Rodania and Dajania also carry that capacity with a slight edge to the stallions of the Dajania strain. They are usually much prettier than their full sisters!
El Dahma is the Dahman Shawan strain. El Dahma is so successful that she is the most overused dam line in the straight Egyptians....very much like Rodania in the UK. It is one of those that a person forgets to outcross for a couple of generations and oops! A very coarse baby is born when it is used for the 9th time (slight exaggeration...ahem!).
Liane and Lynda! Thank you for the kind words!
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Edited by - Egbert on 23 Mar 2008 12:16:55 AM |
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genghiskhan
Junior Member
Netherlands
30 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 06:45:21 AM
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Egbert, I am trying to read myself through the thread of this topic but it takes to long without posting. Really liked your articles and do agree with it.
I am a breeder of Arabians and partbred Arabians. Purpose of breeding of our horses is endurance, without losing treats of the breed. Published some time ago in AHM articles about breeding and Persik.
I do believe in the strength ( and let it be, myth) of the family. It is not only in Arabian horses that some family’s are producing the better horses. But especially in Arabian families there are such strong families. We don’t know the rate of inbreeding and efforts of collecting treats and strength of the founders of our breed. Maybe therefore we don’t understand the strength of some of our dams?
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http://www.genghiskhan.nl |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 11:45:00 AM
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Egbert thank you
Taken Sep 2007 3mths after arriving from uk, and hairy |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 23 Mar 2008 12:38:44 PM |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 12:24:40 PM
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This second pict is of Rusleema, taken by me last Dec ,straight out of the paddock,still shedding a regrown winter coat,with a grass belly, growing again rear end first and with no idea how to pose.
She is by Rusleem- 'Rushan's older brother'- out of Sunne In Silver. Attilio As a footnote Rusleema's sire and dam have Riyala,Ridaa, RoseOf Sharon and finish with Rodania in their 'Tail female line'. I suppose that makes them,and Rusleema "pure in strain "
And she and Antham if put together would go ringa-ding-ding. Bring it on. We spoke abt that ayear or more ago. |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 24 Mar 2008 12:46:54 PM |
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dreammagic
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
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backtobasics
Bronze Member
England
109 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 10:54:48 PM
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Hi Egbert,
I too was told to ask you of my mares breeding, im also looking for her son
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/KYZTARI
my mare is Nakyta, i was also wanting to know of her Crabbet % but dont know ( if im being honest) what im looking for!!
Thankyou
Eve
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 11:07:11 AM
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Eve. This blurry pict is of Fawley Silver Salute A very high % crabbet stallion for whom I bought my filly. His tail female line ends with Dajania .The best part of him is his movement and tail carriage, but overall he is very hard to fault The pict was taken on a glarry winters day last year and he was hairy and filthy.
Your mare has the same tail female as mine and I'd say she is very close to 100% crabbet, whilst mine is only 75%. Don't be too concerned about this as all pure arabians strains are equal, just have a look at the Standard and forget the rest. I saw your mare on another line and your very lucky she is very good. Attilio |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 25 Mar 2008 11:19:33 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 11:43:06 AM
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Hi folks,
My computer crashed ...am using a different one and this keeps erasing anything over two sentences. Hopefully can figure the glitches....
Will try again tomorrow...
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 12:06:30 PM
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 Just one from the front swinging around. What a grub. Attilio |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 25 Mar 2008 12:10:20 PM |
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spirit
Gold Member
England
567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 2:40:03 PM
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Hi Gari, im trying to keep up with the thread!
When you get a chance, will you tell us all about your own horses? Sorry if this has already been discussed.
Thanks and hope your well.  xxx |
     
Cleworth Hall Farm
df.ballerina@googlemail.com
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 3:21:50 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked earlier......what lines are known or noted for their great tail carriage?
Also, forgive my phonetic (sp?) ignorance, is grub a term of endearment in the UK as it looks to be in this case??  |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 7:21:22 PM
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Originally posted by genghiskhanEgbert, I am trying to read myself through the thread of this topic but it takes to long without posting. Really liked your articles and do agree with it. I am a breeder of Arabians and partbred Arabians. Purpose of breeding of our horses is endurance, without losing treats of the breed. Published some time ago in AHM articles about breeding and Persik. I do believe in the strength ( and let it be, myth) of the family. It is not only in Arabian horses that some family’s are producing the better horses. But especially in Arabian families there are such strong families. We don’t know the rate of inbreeding and efforts of collecting treats and strength of the founders of our breed. Maybe therefore we don’t understand the strength of some of our dams?
Hi Genghis!
Exactly. Genetics is still in it's infancy but progressing rapidly. A few years ago we knew that mtDNA was an exchange of energy. Today nearly every university geneticist will be the first to tell you that there is much yet to learn. They have found for instance that certain sire lines interact uniquely with mtDNA, unlike other sire lines; certain sire lines mutate faster for certain characteristics. Clearly in the latter instance out of 50+++ differing sire lines that came to the US only 4 have had a major impact on the halter ring, three of which are particularly strong. Of the original 125+ strains/dam lines that came to the US only 20+ have won a US National halter championship and of those maybe 7 or less have had repeated wins. One thing is certain, certain dam lines/strains are superior in the halter ring. Presumably we see similarities in performance. In the Bedu tradition, various authors have pointed out that certain strains are particularly renowned for certain characteristics, e.g., Menaghy for speed. What is important to realize is that we are dealing with territory that science is only beginning to grasp...and real breeders have understood for centuries. Certainly not with the sophistication of the scientist...but boiling it down...the great breeders understand what works for them-whether dogs, cats, horses, sheep, et. al. Here it is hoped we can come to have a clearer understanding of just what we are dealing with when understanding and breeding Arabians.
Strains seem like a great starting point. Each strain, each dam line brings something different to the mix...We can approach it from two different angles...For example as a great cook would to create a great stew...there are many different types of stew. So selecting the ingredients is critical to making the individual stew as perfect as possible. Same thing with the horses. It can also be approached as a chemistry experiment in much the same way with each strain with their differeing chacteristics acting as a molecule of ingredients.
Remember there are several suppositions
1) Each dam line/strain offers something slightly different to the next.
2) The strength of certain lines is most likely attributable to thousands of years of inbreeding with very little available outcross blood through the centuries coupled with survival of the fittest. From there traits became fixed.
A) Certain characteristics of each strain frequently travel with color;
B) Certain characteristics are recessive or weakened over time but can be recaptured. e.g., Secretariat's speed was clearly recessive yet when his blood is doubled through his get/grandget, i.e., found on both sides of a pedigree, speed seems to come through with greater frequency.
3) Only in the last 150 or so years has the West bumbled into this and because of available stock, paid absolutely no attention to the critical importance of strains. This is GOOD...Because once the characteristics are recognized, we can go back and each breeder can re-capture certain characteristics and by mixing and matching and create something new and unique. And of course it is being done: Crabbet, Gainey, Om El Arab, Simeon are farms that have created very unique lines whether witting or not recreate certain paradigms to fit what they define as desirable and very recognizable. |
Edited by - Egbert on 25 Mar 2008 7:49:47 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 9:38:25 PM
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Hate to bother you more Gari but I found a couple of interesting ones...... The first is the oldest originating TF that I have seen, Murano OA and the second is the newest TF import that I have seen, Najwa. I do apologize if you have covered them already and they just didn't register as I was reading.
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genghiskhan
Junior Member
Netherlands
30 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 10:23:17 PM
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Hi Egbert,
Funny, I used the same metaphor of the cook years ago when explaining how to breed. Just my meal was soup in stead of stew
I agree but 3) ? I don’t think it is good as long as we don’t know the purpose of our breeding. Breeding An Arab now is an effort for a quick success. No long term vision in how to use the horse, or to work with the breed. Accept maybe in special fields like the ring or the track. The multipurpose Arabian is therefore losing treats on all sides. Specialised show horses looses treats for good legs, and endurance horses for elegance.
Maybe it can be restored, like you mention, but for what purpose? You need to set your goal for breeding with a long term vision. As long as breeding is a business for private studs and rich individuals there is no need for long time vision. People, now, abuse the carefully build lines and strains for easy money. Buy a champ, breed with a champ and the heterosis gives you a new champ; abuse of heterosis (hybrid vigour?) and destructive for the strains, family.
Breeding horses used to be a matter of states. Ministry of war, state studs in France, Spain, Tunis or Russia, they knew the meaning of long term vision.
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http://www.genghiskhan.nl |
Edited by - genghiskhan on 25 Mar 2008 10:25:17 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 10:35:56 PM
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Originally posted by dreammagicHi Egbert, I was told i should ask you about my boys breeding on here. Shall put a link in for allbreeds http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dream+magic5Hope you will be able to tell me about his breeding Thanks Anne
(this is the 3rd attempt to answer your post...don't know why Anne but something each time has erased it!)
Message Preview
Originally posted by dreammagic
Hi Egbert,
I was told i should ask you about my boys breeding on here.
Shall put a link in for allbreeds
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dream+magic5
Hope you will be able to tell me about his breeding
Thanks Anne
Hi Anne!
Gosh! What is to tell? Except of course, he is still a stallion?! Beautiful Egyptian, Polish and best of Britain pedigree! Sire line Nazeer through some of the most beautiful stallions to ever grace the planet: R. Magic, Magic Dream, Ali Jamaal, Shaikh al Badi, Morafic to Nazeer! Every single one of those seems to be a bit better than the last! R Magic's dam line is very strong as it is Bint Helwa...and double *Bask so he should have action to burn....
Dream Magic's dam must have been lovely as she has some of the most beautiful blood ever filtering through her marvelous tail female line marked in the 5th generation by Mikeno's influence...of beauty and lovely motion coupled with the *Bask blood yet again, through Tornado. So to describe him...Dream Magic-he must be very beautiful,
have superb motion, powerfully built yet refined...bit of aloof in temperament and probably a real handful as a youngster but very sensitive to your presence..just about the time you think he is indifferent, something happens and you realize just how important you are to his life-he tells you so loud and clear!...With his very showy blood, maturation is critical in this line. Would love to see photos! This is a stallion that should be a tremendous outcross to most lines in the UK...but I'd be on the look out for mares that carry the tail female line of *Fejr and also be very careful of legs. US judges to often tend to look at legs from the knees up. The Dream Magic on Fejr strain mare would cross to create a horse of exceptional beauty, action and heartmeltingly sweet character. Pictures???
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 11:08:10 PM
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Originally posted by backtobasicsHi Egbert, I too was told to ask you of my mares breeding, im also looking for her son http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/KYZTARImy mare is Nakyta, i was also wanting to know of her Crabbet % but dont know ( if im being honest) what im looking for!! Thankyou Eve x
Hi Eve!
Your girl is a sire line Skowronek and dam line to Rodania, Keheilan Ajuz of the Ibn Rodan...Am absolutely fascinated to see the bay coming through with her probably the result of Ranya II doubled up in the pedigree - Nasik site line blood which carries extra intelligence as a rule...And lets get percentages out of the way by saying I don't do them. Obviously she has a very high percentage of Crabbet blood, probably 95% with some old GSB E. Dillon blood I think through some early imports. Perhaps even more important to realize is that her sire line passes through Nasib...one of the most beautiful if not most important lines bred by Michael Pitt Rivers, one of the UK's great breeders renowned for the highest quality stock. He imported Ralvon Elijah to the UK from Australia.
Your blood combined with the nearly legendary Kasadi's would make a very beautiful and powerful looking youngster. Would love to see him too!
Over all both son and dam should have beauty, great motion, keen intelligence and kindly temperaments....
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 11:40:52 PM
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To answer some of the more general questions...
Hi Spirit,
My bloodlines are British with the best of the US...I purchased British National Champion *Rushan from the late John and Pat Coward in '98. Also was one of the very first to ever see *Carmargue, write about him and helped facilitate his import to the US (introduced Om El and the Protheros and acted as Cam's guardian in the US). Was also the first American to use him as I arranged the lease of Sa'Lilah and the result was *Carmagnole. My principal mare line is through the purchase of the Wayne Newton bred WN Sharazada whom I lost a year ago. But we have kept Cariala (Carmargue), Caelilly Rose (Carmagnole) and Gwendalyn (Magnum Psyche ). I've also retained Carabella who is in foal for June to the Polish Reserve National Champion, Equifor. All can be found on the All Breed site. But I'd like it to be noted to that despite being one of the world's smallest, breeders, i.e., I don't breed a lot, the blood does manage to get out there-breeds on very well, e.g., at Scottsdale there were two reps via Penelope Maj, whose dam is by Rushan, who was 3rd in a huge class of 4 year olds and the Junior Champion Filly, True Desire LL whose granddam is Antham's half sister, MP Serenata. Her daughter, TD's dam, Serenata El Jamaal was Canadian National Champion a few years back. This year's Canadian National Champion Western Pleasure Champ...was the Sharazada daughter, Shivani! So despite being miniscule...our blood breeds on pretty well.
Bob, don't know about grub. However 'boot' is not just a shoe but a car trunk?....Also tail carriage seems to come through consistently if not frustratingly through *El Shaklan lines: I've had my horses, as has OM EL...tested for ginger or before the test, accused of using it. More later |
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dreammagic
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:06:57 AM
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Thanks Egbert, he is a gelding now, I got him to do Endurance, he gets rather stressed at the vetting and his heart rate goes up a bit, although it is fine at home.
Am hoping he shall settle as he gets older as he enjoys the rides.
Shall try to post a pic of him although am not to good with computors
Thnks Anne |
    
Equine Photograpic 1st 3 pics, JPS EQUINE 4th pic |
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dreammagic
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:38:13 AM
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Hoping this will work |
Equine Photograpic 1st 3 pics, JPS EQUINE 4th pic |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 12:52:27 AM
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Hi Anne,
Aww, darn. That is the problem...takes awhile for that line to mature out of the bounce. He looks lovely.
Bob,
MuranA I is who you are looking for....Can't find a Murano OA to save my life! Murana was picked up in the desert by the Polish Baron von Fechtig per datasource and sold to Weil in 1816. The line is said to be Seglawi!
Najwa was imported by Hearst (Sunical) and I can't find anything on her strain...My thinking is that so many of those brought out of Saudi Arabia seemed to be Hamdani Simris...That being the case, the one sure fire way of recognizing a Hamdani-or at least that I've observed consistently with this tail female, is if it is ultra smooth.
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dreammagic
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 01:18:35 AM
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Hi Egbert,
So he shall settle eventually then?
Don't have enough photos of him shall have to get the camera out in the summer
Anne |
Equine Photograpic 1st 3 pics, JPS EQUINE 4th pic |
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Topic |
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Tail Female Line....?
I think he is too good for the USA, 
)