| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 2:04:51 PM
|
(It was suggested I repost here) :-)
Hi,
Liane here. There is something that I have observed and would like to have others input on this. After about 4-5 generations of linebreeding, given that the desired attributes of the individuals are bred for the right qualities (conformation/temperament, etc.), the later individuals become less "defined". I see a more rounded, undefined "edges" where there once was that chiseled refinement or dryness. For instance, muzzles are more bulbous, necks are shorter even though the bloodline or desired "look" is evident. I compare this to a ceramic mold that has been used for many years. The definition is gone that was evident in the original.
I can think of a couple of examples, but will not mention on this forum; however perhaps it is just a lack of maturity in the horses.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? This is definitely not a criticism of the practice of linebreeding but just a perceived observation.
Liane
|
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 12:29:52 AM
|
Anne!
You are funny. All environmental factors being simply the best, the baby is going to be so incredibly stunning, exotic, gorgeous, epitomy of the perfect Arabian halter horse.... and equally wonderful athlete. If grey it will be World Champion, British National Champion and the ME breeders will be hot on your heels!
If chestnut or any other color it will be remarkably beautiful...and a good shot at all championships but have a hunch the gray will be simply out of this world.
Now then sire line is Nazeer. The dam line is Seglawi al Abd to the Spanish military import, Zulima (one of the most successful dam lines in the US, certainly the most successful Spanish dam line). Interestingly WH Justice's dam line is to Basilisk, also a Seglawi but she is a Seglawi Ibn Ed Derri.
So pure in the strain Seglawi....long necked, exotic head and very very refined....Am green with envy, I want that baby! Sigh...
You have to promise us photos! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 12:34:42 AM
|
Originally posted by s.jadeWell we hit a problem right off...Your Illuminata comes up to a TB born in the late 1800's....(?) oops! Will try to straighten that out...Oh good! Found him...He is very interestingly bred colt and is a Seglawi Jedran back to my favorite Bint Helwa! But more importantly, this must be a very very attractive youngster if not stunning as he is a mix of the most important lines in Arabdom: Sired by the Menes line stallion, Judals Raphael through Vympel and on to Mareen, his Russian/Polish sire line to Amurath Sahib is renowned for beauty; there is fabulous Spanish blood on both sides of the pedigree (Makor and Arabian Beauty), a touch of old Babson Egyptian and a lot of lovely Crabbet and Crabbet related blood. If he fully reflects his pedigree, Illuminata should be brilliant bred to any mare! Annyarah is sire line Rabdan via Seef and traces to the Worlds Fair mare, imported from the desert, *Nedjme who is one of the great dam lines ever and is known for being the dam line of a great many winners in the US, e.g., Fame VF, probably the most successful son of Bey Shah. There is some controversy that she was a Kuhailan but an interview with her importer 40 years after she was imported indicates she was the highest caste Seglawi Jedran. Certainly the line breeds very Seglawi! She should be solid, showy, and an excellent dam! A fun filly to own. I'd breed her to your boy or Tobago or just about anything that you liked. Tres Chic must be fabulous. Sire line to Ali Jamaal dam line to the same as Estopa/El Shaklan's and one I suspect is a Kuhailan Dajania. If she isn't a leading show mare in the UK, she should be! She is beautifully bred with leading Egyptian, Spanish, Pussian...I'd suspect she is one you might like a tad more scope but another you can breed just about anyway you want but your boy should be a major consideration as she would be complimented by him. Huge thanks again Gari  I also own Illuminata's sire, Judals Raphael, and will now possibly kick myself for having the pair of the gelded 2 weeks ago!!  Never mind, they'll be happy lads  Aanyarah is as you say, a lot of fun! She has a huge added bonus of being jet black, and yes, very solid like her daddy! Another homebred so again I'm so happy with your lovely analysis...I am expecting a full sibling in 5 weeks too! Tres Chic is my hidden gem, she has never been out in public and is now 3, but hopefully this is her year We were thinking of Tobago for her, so knowing her lines cross well pretty much anywhere is fab, thank you! Do you mean JUDALS Magnum Gold? Or the Magnum Gold in the US? Judals MG is now gelded and with a lovely forum member 
MCA Magnum Gold...nearly black; stunningly beautiful....
Would love to see photos, Jade! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 02:07:07 AM
|
Ahhh, Magnum Gold, another one that got away!!!! Your going to see some great babies by him from your great mares over there, no doubt in my mind!!
Thanks Gari, I thought Wadduda would be of Seglawi origin by the horses that trace to her and I am not surprised to hear that WH Justice is of Seglawi heritage also.
So I'm wondering when you say "pure in strain" are you meaning more than just the TF strain?? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 11:06:14 AM
|
Hi Bob,
Pure in the strain means simply that both sire and dam are of the same strain. Strain is always attached to the tail female line. However, they can be 'pure in the strain' but have differing substrains or differing sources of the same strain, for example, Zulima and *Wadduda are both Seglawi al Abd, but come via differing dam lines. Conversely, Bint Helwa and Basilisk are differing substrains, the former is a Jedran and the latter is Ibn Ed Derri. On the other hand, Zulima and *Wadduda need to be tested via mtDNA to determine if they share the ultimately identical tail female despite sharing the same substrain. I suspect they do tho' the Zulima line seems to breed on with a tad more sophistication or more modern look.
Liane,
Oh boy! You've asked the million dollar question and I hope this works:
When you see a horse that is intensely line bred, i.e., more than two lines up close-withing 3-4 generations or where the grandsire of each horse is one and the same and the granddams are all different....and the individual seems almost a characture of the horse bred for...what you are seeing is, IMHO, what has become inbreeding wherein the horse's recessives are doubled and become dominant.
NOTE: I AM NOT A GENETICIST. So this is strictly my opinion of what is happening...
What I've found is that if both sides of the pedigree share the same horse in one line...all that is dominant in that valued horse comes to the front. BUT if it is there more than 4 times it is like inbreeding and the more times the horse appears, the more frequently there is a coarseness, crudeness, chunkiness, roughness to the resulting individual. It is simply that those genes that were recessive and hung back with only one or two lines to the great horse, suddenly are brought into play as they would if inbred.
Recently I was shown an individual who had a stallion doubled on one side of the pedigree and apparently outcrossed on the other, but they weren't really outcrossed tho' appeared to be a perfect one. Careful perusal showed that within the other pedigree were dominant but somewhat coarse lines that were shared on the bay gene! Combined with the doubled blood, the resulting individual "suffered" from the crap shoot and instead of the apparently dominant horse coming through, his coarser recessive bay gene came through instead. Hope that makes sense....
Oh Bob, Magnum Gold was bar none the most beautiful baby I ever saw. Just awesome. Am thrilled I've a breeding to him, even if frozen. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Anne Harris
Silver Member
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 12:20:14 PM
|
Hi Gari,
thank you for your reply, which was very interesting and informative, I am now REALLY EXCTIED.
I am hoping for a grey filly but am pretty convinced that it will be a colt perhaps chestnut but probably bay. Of course I will supply photos when the foal arrives.
Once again thank you for your time and your comments.
Best wishes
Anne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 1:42:57 PM
|
Hi Anne,
You are most welcome. Has your mare had a change of disposition? That line tends to act very stud-like if they are carrying a colt...i.e., loaded with testosterone...
Seriously, not too many probably realize the quality of mare you have there: TW Forteyna is the dam of numerous champions and two or three US National Champions including your mare's great granddam, Bey Teyna and her sister Shahteyna! On top of that Echo Magnifficoo was US National Champion as well as Padrons Psyche, I think the youngest Res. Champion stallion in history, being the sire of numerous US National Champs as well as Regional champions in both halter and performance! Rarely does a pedigree get much better. I really expect to see a youngster that is super elegant, exotic...you name it. Justice is one of those great stallions that improves on whatever he is bred to, so I am told, and what you have doesn't get much better so it is going to be very very interesting! Can't wait to see those photos! When is Passion due? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 2:00:22 PM
|
Hello. What I see here is the giving of too much importance to the tail female and the tail female line. We have here the creation and perpetuation of a myth concerning the arabian horse (like the mythof Al Khamsa).
I'm not a journalist, but I have studied genetics at university level so I know something of the replication of genetic material, and the distribution of genes in germ cells ie the sperm and ovum, each of which contain half the genetic message of the animal that results from the fertilization of the ovum by the sperm.
Pure arabian horses have been around for a few thousand years apparently. The tribes, or the keepers of these horses for at least that long also, and it seems that intertribal warfare has also been a factor in the distribution of arabian horse genetic material throughout these millenia. So at the time Lady Anne and Wilfred Blunt arrived in Arabia we had a even spread of arab horse genetic material throughout the horse breeding tribes.
Lady Anne was quite adamant that she could not tell the difference between the Strains and this she said was as expected as they were all asil,and therefore no strain was outstanding.
The future of the arab horse in Arabia at that time was very precarious,mainly because guns were far deadlier than spears and swords. So it appears that overall a relative few related arabian horses were taken to the west, and from these we bred todays arabians. 90% of todays arab horses trace back to Crabbet in at least one line. Look at any pedigree and see how many times the same horse appears over and over again. Eg I think Messaoud appears more than 150 times in Rusleem's pedigree,and so it goes on. The differences we see today have resulted from the selective breeding of Arabs by us humans with our differing ideas on what an arab should look like or what's winning or just plain dollars and cents.
So really, breeding arabs is the same as breeding any other livestock, no need for any myth creation or magic. looking at the parents and grandparents is the best path. Attilio
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 2:12:33 PM
|
Hi Attilio,
If you understand mtDNA and the weight it is being given today and then realize how frequently the same horses appear over and over, then you are on the right track. I can usually recognize the different strains and that has come after 30 ++ years study. Think that you would find that Lady Anne did as well towards the end of her life.
Briefly what you forget is how very very inbred the horses were 2000-5000 years ago. There simply weren't that many outcrosses available so the blood became horrifically inbred on the one hand and only the best survived. Taken from that standpoint and how many times that same dam line was utilized over and over...that is why the strain is so critical. Moreover, what you frequently find is that the tribes as well as each family bred so consistently for certain characteristics that despite coming from different original tail females, the new line eventually became indistinguishable.
Also, Wilfrid was fairly adament on what worked strain wise, for example, Rodania dam lines should always be covered by Seglawi stallions.
|
Edited by - Egbert on 19 Mar 2008 2:14:12 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
|
|
Anne Harris
Silver Member
United Kingdom
314 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 3:51:49 PM
|
Hi Gari
thanks once again, your knowledge is awesome and thank you for sharing it as you do.
Passion is due on Sunday 6th April. She hasn't been any different from her usual grumpy self really, so it is difficult to make a call on the sex of the new arrival. I am waiting quite impatiently I must say but I will keep you informed when the foal arrives.
Anne
x
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 4:21:09 PM
|
Lynda, Well that cross did! Thing is if we apply the principles to humans it doesn't work because we weren't being genetically manipulated except in certain instances (during the days of slavery) like our animals are. With extremely limited gene pools, which we are only beginning to appreciate, certain things started happening. Add to this we are in our infancy in understanding genetics. But up to 5000 years of closed breeding with few available outcrosses and survival of the fittest helped to create a truly extraordinary gene pool. It is only in the last 200 years that we in the west have messed up traditional breeding practices-again differing from tribe to tribe, region to region...
Anne, is she truly grumpy or just a bit of a prima donna? Actually Shahteyna was said to have been a bit of a grump as well...She loved to go on trail rides...Are you riding Passion when she isn't pregnant? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 4:21:36 PM
|
| Originally posted by Egbert
Liane,
Oh boy! You've asked the million dollar question and I hope this works:
When you see a horse that is intensely line bred, i.e., more than two lines up close-withing 3-4 generations or where the grandsire of each horse is one and the same and the granddams are all different....and the individual seems almost a characture of the horse bred for...what you are seeing is, IMHO, what has become inbreeding wherein the horse's recessives are doubled and become dominant.
NOTE: I AM NOT A GENETICIST. So this is strictly my opinion of what is happening...
What I've found is that if both sides of the pedigree share the same horse in one line...all that is dominant in that valued horse comes to the front. BUT if it is there more than 4 times it is like inbreeding and the more times the horse appears, the more frequently there is a coarseness, crudeness, chunkiness, roughness to the resulting individual. It is simply that those genes that were recessive and hung back with only one or two lines to the great horse, suddenly are brought into play as they would if inbred.
Recently I was shown an individual who had a stallion doubled on one side of the pedigree and apparently outcrossed on the other, but they weren't really outcrossed tho' appeared to be a perfect one. Careful perusal showed that within the other pedigree were dominant but somewhat coarse lines that were shared on the bay gene! Combined with the doubled blood, the resulting individual "suffered" from the crap shoot and instead of the apparently dominant horse coming through, his coarser recessive bay gene came through instead. Hope that makes sense....
======================================================
Thank you, Gari. Even if not a geneticist, you have provided some food for thought, and it is simply enough that someone has made that same observation. I have always wondered about it.
Liane
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 9:09:18 PM
|
So, hopefully not too much of a pest.....is there anywhere that breaks down the 125 or so TF lines into strains??
Really curious about Zulima and Reshan. And then theres Ghazel and Ghazieh (related as well??) And Venus and Jaskolka? Jellabiet Feysul? Nejdme?? The list is as long as my knowledge is short, sad to say. |
Edited by - willowview on 19 Mar 2008 9:10:21 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
gabriele
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 9:25:38 PM
|
Hi Gari,
This is a mare I ride as a reining horse. She is bold, strong, athletic but willful, and she is very much the tomboy. I don't have a clue on how to breed her should I have that opportunity. Ideally it should be with another horse that would have the athletic ability for the same sport. I do like "typey" though along with everything else that needs to be there.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/msa+zaleta
Thanks so much.
Liane
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 11:50:40 PM
|
Aha! Hi Liane, am answering your question in Bob's, good question. No there is not one book that breaks them all down...I've a pretty good library so have been able to trace most, for example the Davenport book breaks down all the Davenport imports to their respective strains. Liane's Zaleta is a Kuhailan Krush tracing to *Werdi so Liane...I've just the right guy for you....:) However, there is not a lot about the Krush's in Davenport but there are in Forbis! From her we learn they are very versatile horses, usually associated with an extra bit of beauty....typical example is Padrons Psyche. But his Krush goes back to the British import Dafina who had her origins with the Muteyr tribe in the Nejd thanks to the efforts of the Sir Gilbert Clayton who arranged the purchase and got her to Lady Wentworth...This line is considered the most authentic Krush line. It would be fun to run mtDNA to see if it is a match to the Davenport import.
Remember except for Woloska and Milordka all the other Polish lines are considered Kuhailan in the generic sense of pure as their strains are, for the most part unknown. Some are known and usually broken down into their families. Also since the names are phonetically spelled, we often don't recognize the family, never mind the strain name, e.g., Abbeian, Obeyran, Abayan, Abaian...are considered one and the same tho' spelled differently, depending on the language one is discussing them in...(hope that makes sense).
Ghazel if we are speaking of the 1924 Spanish mare, was purchased by the Yeguada National from the Beni Sakr tribe in 1927 and was a Kuhailan Ajuz. This info is found in Joanna Maxwell's book, Spanish Arabian Horse Families.
Ghazieh goes to the Abbas Pasha collection Seglawi Jedrans, with Bint Helwa being her best known great granddaughter who will always be remembered as the 'courageous' for the hideous compound, complex shattered leg she suffered trying to return to the Crabbet gate for afternoon tea. She was in foal to Mesaoud, if I recall correctly, hobbled an estimated 5 miles to the back gate and was there discovered patiently waiting. Blunt, NEVER given over to sentiment, was so touched that he refused the vet's pleas to euthanize her and had her slung til the baby was ready to be born...He'd never seen a mare so courageous. She went on to have several more surviving offspring, perhaps the best known being *Ghazala. Best rep: *Carmargue.
Zulima we discussed above is a Seglawi al Abd imported by the Yeguada Militar. (Maxwell)
Reshan was a Davenport import, and Kuhailan Haifi.(Davenport)
We actually have covered here all those lines you have brought up, Bob...Jellabiat Feysul is basically a subset of the Kuhailan Jellabys; the Egyptian, Venus is an Hadban Enzahi per Pearson in Arabian Horse Families of Egypt, while the Polish Jaskolka is said to be Kuhailan (Fahlgren's Arabian Horse Families of Poland)!
*Nejdme is a bit controversial...One of the great 'war' mares specifically imported for the World's Fair back in the late 1800's, she was supposedly a Kuhailan Ajuz. BUT 40 years later during a crossing out of NY, her importer, Mr. Bistanny was interviewed and said that she was not Kuhailan but of the most renowned Seglawi Jedran stock anywhere! How true? Well, she tends to breed very very Seglawi, eg., US National Champion stallion, Fame VF.
Does that sort of help Bob? When my book ever is written will try to have the most commonly known of the original imports covered.
|
Edited by - Egbert on 19 Mar 2008 11:52:00 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 03:51:58 AM
|
Oh definitly helps Gari, thanks a bunch!! So much of it really seeems to make sense and I can't wait for your book to come out!!
And please, just one more...no wait two...Haffia and Haidee (I know enough already)
So Nedjme, your feeling is Seglawi, Gari?? Are you familiar with Maranello? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 08:47:50 AM
|
Maranello is a 3/4 brother to US National Champion Enzo...same dam but sire is Magnum Psyche...must be nice? Would think he would be somewhat more elegant, upright with better tail carriage, legs and feet? Lots of color, too. Not a wishy washy chestnut.
Davenport import Haffia is an Abayan Sherrak....
Haidee is a Menaghy...from the desert by Mr. Skene in Aleppo to the UK had only one foal, *Naomi who went to Randolf Huntington...She is prevalent in US pedigrees. A wonderful representative of this line is the US National Champion Mare, NW Siena Psyche, possibly one of the most magnificent and beautiful mares I've ever seen.
A footnote of sorts...I think it was Roger Upton who told me decades ago that thanks to Carl Raswan many people are under the impression that the Menaghys are very fast and very homely-the racehorses of the Arabians. Well, turns out that one of Raswan's best friends in the desert was a deadly enemy of those tribes that bred Menaghys. The horses are fast and considered by many in the desert to be the most beautiful line! Typical example? Ferseyn! *Ferda, Farasin and their descendants. |
Edited by - Egbert on 21 Mar 2008 4:58:37 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 3:22:02 PM
|
Egbert. Of course mtDnA is passed on down the female line, but this is only because the sperm have their mitochondria packed into their tail in order to provide energy for the rush to the female ovum. Once a sperm breakes through the egg membraine it's tail drops off outside whilst the genetic code deposits inside. The ovum has its own mitochondria to supply itself with the necessary energy to survive and to divide if fertilized. It should also be remembered that the mtDNA in the sperm tail came from the stallion's dam and so this would suggest that mtDNA is only concerned with the energy needs of the animal . Im sure they are doing work with mtDna but I think that this is concerned with trying to correct disorders that occur with energy production within cells and the diseases that result.
With regard to the coming together of different strains in breeding, what you suggest is not what the horse breeding nomadic Bedu would do because to them all strains were equal.
Even today there is enough variation in the genetic pool of arabian horses to allow us to be selective in our choice of stallions for our mare. The different 'types' that we see today result from selective breeding for type, money, or fashion, for the showring or endurance or preservation groups. Because the desert is no longer an environmental factor,and it's cars rather than horses and ones life does'nt depend on your steed, what factor is important enough to make one spend big for an arabian today. Is it the ego .
What we need to keep in mind is the Standard because that's all we have ;and even there people differ and use modern terms to describe an animal or to subtley twist the meaning of points .Believe me it can be difficult today to find a stallion that fits the bill for your mare and there is a glut of arab horses.eg how plentiful are stallions with good hock action. Attilio |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 4:56:21 PM
|
Hi Attilio,
All excellent points. Only place I disagree with you is that the individual tribes all felt that their particular groups excelled all others. Within that context, according to the various scholars certain lines consistently passed certain traits, i.e., the Seglawi being finer and suited for the nobility; Kuhailan as pure and sturdy and often carried the name "kuhailan" because no one was quite certain of their origin and in more recent times carried the surname of the family breeding the line; the Menaghy for racing and for years carried the stigma of being ugly (they are usually anything but) thanks to Carl (Schmidt) Raswan, and so on. Several years ago, chatting with one of the leading experts who travels to and works with the tribes on a fairly regular basis, he asserted that they don't pay any attention to the strains. Interesting but then until fairly recently there had not been as much interest due to political upheavel over the last 150 years wherein the best stock was lost to the west. More recently reports have surfaced that the governments are trying to discourage the nomadic traditions by closing borders and moving the children into the cities. Sound familiar?
The point is that there is a good deal more predictability, as this thread has abundantly shown, than has heretofore been thought possible, and a good start is with strains.
Perhaps you would share with us pictures of what you are breeding? What you have accomplished to date? |
Edited by - Egbert on 21 Mar 2008 5:01:18 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 07:15:03 AM
|
Touche egbert. So readily forgotten, I'm crushed  . A seniors moment no doubt
I have just returned to the happy fold of arabian horse breeders after an absence of some 25+ yrs. The reason for this folly was that I happened to call in to see some old friends of mine whom I hadn't seen since my horse showing days and there I saw what I think is the best arabian stallion I'd seen in the flesh. His name may ring a bell; Fawley Silver Salute, a very high percentage Crabbet stallion, unknown and unshown. A horse that is blessed with superb hock action and classical type.
So I looked for a mare for him and chose Rusleema, a filly by the charismatic and extrordinarily well performed Rusleem.
Unfortunately she arrived here down in condition and looking quite immature. She has recovered, and has grown and considering I purchased her on her foal photo and after seeing pictures of her parents I am very happy with her. Unfortunately I'm not able to post pictures of her but i'm sure you could if I emailed you a couple.
I was lucky enough to own a 97% Crabbet arabian stallion all those years ago by the name of Talquah Taaj: a beautiful dark mahogany bay who did very well in hand and under saddle and (as Ive found out in the last few years) sired some good endurance horses.
As the saying goes in ITalian--"Chi va piano va lontano."
So I'm in no rush Cia Bella Attilio
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 09:24:56 AM
|
Am very very prejudiced towards the Rusleem family so am thrilled that your medical eye has gone in that direction...Unfortunately your pictures have caused my machine to crash twice so have erased and will please beg your forgiveness and ask you to go to
http://photobucket.com/
and download from there. Also remember when posting here to change 'IMG' to 'img'
(Folks did I get that right?) I'll test one of mine of Antham....and see if I got it right:
More tomorrow...have just run out of gas! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
|
|
willowview
Junior Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 1:05:12 PM
|
Easy does it Lynda, we've only just found him!!! |
Edited by - willowview on 22 Mar 2008 1:08:12 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 1:32:54 PM
|
| Ok I have the images on photobucket ,how do I get them on here |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Tail Female Line....?
