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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 3:43:40 PM
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I have been approached by two mare owners wanting to use my colt Ali Saleem (in sig) for stud. He is destined to be a ridden horse and would be used for stud purposes in the future but I want opinions on what you more experienced people think. How badly may it affect his behaviour, should I wait until he is backed. Also I want to show him in the 2yr old classes this year but will covering a mare make him all thin and scrawny. I do know there are stallions that combine in-hand/ridden showing together with stud and have no probs but they are usually older. Both mares are older quiet brood mares. Opinions please. He is stabled next to my partbred mare with no problems. He is interested in her but she is not interested in him.
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 4:15:57 PM
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You are going to get different opinions to your question.
My sister and I had two stallions, and both covered one mare each when they were two years old. We made sure than there was a difference in the bridles used for covering, and the bridles used for showing, and they do get to know. The Pure bred did loose a little condition, but he very quickly put it back on. Covering did not affect the Part-bred at all. Both stallions had been brought up to be very well mannered, no mucking about! It did not affect either when being shown, the Part-bred in particular often stood next to mares in the ring and the only thing that did affect him were foals - he loved them! |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 7:17:53 PM
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| No difference at all.They know the routine to covering as to being ridden.Our lads started as baby 2y olds and its never been an issue with them.If you are covering intensivly with him the weight does drop off but a couple of mares should for a young lad like him be easy! I also think if he is taught the manners etc involved with covering by someone who knows what their doing i don't think their will be a problem.Our stallions ride out with others mares included, quite happily ( when we ride them!! Been a while!!) |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 7:34:42 PM
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Heather, this is my opinion only, what you eventually decide to do is your decision.
I personally feel too many colts - no matter how good they are, how great their bloodlines etc, cover mares BEFORE THEY PROVE THEMSELVES.
We hear of people having probs selling foals, we definitely "overbreed". How many "unwanted" foals are born to mares who then cannot find homes and are sold through markets etc.
My old deceased stallion, proved himself and produced horses of great quality, who raced, did endurance, won at top shows, Princess Muna etc etc.
My young stallion has done "not too badly so far" BUT we have only just collected semen from him at 5yrs old. HE WILL NOT STAND AT PUBLIC STUD UNTIL WE SEE THE RESULTS FROM OUR OWN AND AL WAHA MARES.
Then and only then, he may be offered at stud.
All Stallions are different - some can cope with covering mares and then going out and doing ridden classes. My boy has the most wonderful/laid back temperament BUT I am not willing to let him do both at the moment.
When I bought him it was because I fell in love with him, he was what I was looking for. I did not buy him to stand at public stud, to accept ALL mares to make a return.
YOUR STALLION WILL ALWAYS GET THE BLAME FOR THE WORST FAULTS OF HIS OFFSPRING - REMEMBER THAT.
Yes it would be wonderful to see what he would produce but be patient - at the end of the day, remember the good of the breed.
OK off my soap box now. The decision is yours. |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 09:58:21 AM
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The two ladies that have approached me are far more experienced than me and one of them has shown arabs for years. She has a mare that she specifically chose as a potential wife for Ali as she likes him very much. She is far more qualified than I am to make a judgement on which mare goes best with which stallion. The other lady has a coloured pony mare and she wants to (hopefully) breed a quality coloured riding horse/pony. I am not out to make loads of money or anything, or indescriminately breed unwanted foals. It was just having been asked I did not know if it was ok to do or not.
It sounds like just one or two mares might be ok from the other posts, thanks for the information, I was worried that if he covered a mare he would then forevermore be trying to escape to find more. I have not bred any foals myself for years and was not planning to in the near future. I always want to keep them and now in my mid forties I realise keeping them for their whole life is unlikely to be possible. |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 10:37:49 AM
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Heather, I think you can judge your horse better than anyone.
My Ali (!) covered two mares last year. Both were my mares. He covered one at the end of May, at 2 years and 1 month old. He knew exactly what he was doing, was straight out and on to it. We covered the mare on the Thursday and the Saturday - she is due in April.
For a few days after covering, he did turn into a bit of a brat, he kept getting very excited, charging out of his stable and trying to drag me to the mares field, but he settled down and all the time, was turned out in his field, which has a normal height fence, with electric and has a 10 feet gap from the mares field. They can still talk to each other from each field..... I have found that the electic fence was a must have for Ali, as he is a bit of a wimp, and a few zaps on the moosh got him vary wary of he fence!
He then covered another of my mares around end June/start of July time. This one didn't get in foal... the same thing happened, he got a bit naughty for a few days but then settled down.
The thing is, this mare didn't stand still like the other one, and it brought to my attention just how hard it is when you have a mare that doesn't want to co operate - put together with a mare that you don't know, and you could find its more hassle than its worth.
Whilst covering this mare, the bridle snapped and fell to the ground, so he was loose trying to cover her. Luckily he had a headcollar on underneath so we could clip him back on, but had that mare started to kick him, we wouldn't have been able to pull him off!
I was lucky because I have very experienced friends to call on, when i need help with covering. I am only 5 foot 1, and Ali is about 15.2hh. There is no way i could hold him.... maybe when he is more experienced and chilled out about it I could!
Like Lynda said, we used a chiffney on Ali for covering, this way he can get used to knowing which job mode he needs to be in, as I don't use a bridle on him for anything other than covering. When he is shown, the bit will be different.
I think you will be fine, just remember that the most difficult part is actually the strange mare. I know with my boy that as an inexperienced two year old, I wouldn't have risked him for anyone else.
Anyway, let us know how you get on. Good luck xxx |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 9:26:05 PM
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| I am only 5ft 1" as well !!! and I think my ali is well on the way to being 15hh and not 2 til april. I appreciate all your advice and I havent got any experienced people, close by, who I can call on for help. I will licence him this spring but may not bother with having anyone bringing a mare this year. If he got all stupid and it was just before a show I'd never cope with him! was longreining him on sunday and he spooked at something (not usually a spooky sort) and I was dragged halfway across a ploughed field, my boots had 10 lbs of clay stuck on each of them and he had a lunge line wrapped all round his back legs. Fortunately the "ALI WHOA" finally sunk in and he stood perfectly whilst I untangled him. I was a bit worried about his mouth but he seems fine. I just dared not let him go! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 9:45:15 PM
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Heather you'll definitely need someone who knows what they're doing to hold the mare unless you get Ali used to running with mares, which I think is a very good idea but may get shouted down by people who are keen on showing their stallions.
From my experience it's good to let your colt or stallion get used to being in a field next to mares, with electric fencing with 'stand offs' so he doesn't try to get to them, so it's not too exciting a business being taken near one. The mares seem to get far more keen on the event, when they're ready and it can be an easier process taking the stallion through the gate to her.
I found with the covering in the arena with the special bit on, in exactly the same routine every covering, made the stallions anticipate the event so much they were nigh-on roaring as soon as they suspected there was a mare to cover - especially after the teasing...
A stallion that knows how to run with mares and respect their signals is a far easier prospect. It does however mean a bit of a risk to begin with...
I found it very useful, in the very beginning, to go to a couple of professional studs for a day in the height of the breeding season (including one that did mainly AI) to acquaint myself with the whole process. |
Roseanne |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 10:25:32 PM
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What about collection Heather,
Would he still associate covering with, live, moving mares??
I have never bred anything in my life, (except my son)
But surely theres a reason for folk going down this road.
I thought it was so the man himself, kept his mind on the job he was doing, didnt get hurt, and making them more accessable.
If I am wrong, perhaps someone can put me straight. I appreciate learning all I can.
Look afer him Heather, hes a stunner |
       
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Edited by - pat day on 10 Jan 2006 08:51:07 AM |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 11:18:32 AM
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I prefer covering in hand.Much safer much more proffessional and you can be CERTAIN of your dates.As long as someone teaches you and your youngster who knows what their doing its easy for both parties,human and equine! I was lucky when Bob was 2 Penny Harrison Taught me how to handle him covering a mare she was so experienced it was easy,and we've never looked back,he could do performance coverings he is that proffessional at it,and such a star, brilliant boy.
And just a little bit more,we never churned them out production line style either!!! 3 a year was a handful of babies!!!!! |
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Edited by - Libby Frost on 10 Jan 2006 11:19:55 AM |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 2:50:24 PM
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The idea of letting a stallion run with mares has always been my ideal, my mini pony stallion lives with his little wife in a monogamous relationship (no other girls) and he ...and she are very happy... she is boss !!! however these are about 30" tall, unshod and do no damage to one another. I really dont want ali to sustain a battering, I have this idea that I may risk letting him run with my part bred mare... shoes removed but she is my ridden mare so dont want her to have a foal until I hopefully have Ali under saddle..yulp....when I see his rearing/bucking bronco act in the field not sure if I have the guts for riding him! Anyway all advice is being carefully considered and I will def try to get to a stud to see how the breeding process is managed. Wish you were nearer Libby, I'd be over to see you like a shot. Oh for some araby enthusiast on my doorstep!!
thanks
Heather. |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 4:13:50 PM
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| Surely their is someone knowledgable near you? |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 3:13:09 PM
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| there is claverdon but they are so big and important and busy!! i want a nice friendly local person, they are all hunter sorts round here ... think arabs are stupid! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 7:56:31 PM
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Heather just cos he's a good active, lively colt doesn't mean he won't be a super well behaved stallion to ride. The foundations are being laid now and if he's started well (I know you're doing all the walking out stuff already) he'll always know that when he has a saddle and bridle on, he has to behave in a certain way that you determine...
If he does run with your part-bred he'll always know what the 'rules of engagement' are with any visiting mare and is unlikely to be kicked or injured. It is, after all, a natural occurance until you start trying to organise it to suit some other agenda!!! |
Roseanne |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 10:44:14 PM
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| I beg to differ herehow are you going to know if and when hes covered the mare? Much too hit or miss in my liking,much better in hand ,more definate ,and quicker to catch the season,cover for 5 days or whatever,job done. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 11:07:17 PM
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You know because you watch for courting behaviour, you know when the mare was in season and therefore when she should be due in, plus that she's likely to have been successfully covered if she doesn't come back into season. Then scan to confirm. That's a three to five week cycle and lots of mares go away to stud for that length of time, if not longer.
This obviously may not be the best way for those with all their horses kept in and who have no problem with in-hand covering, but it is good to teach stallions how to behave with mares in the natural way.
We've had experience of stallions who don't know how to cope with a mare and just rush at them because they've never been taught to keep their distance until 'invited' in the field.
If Heather gets her planning permission with her barn and manege, she may develop a system which allows her to cover easily in-hand. But stallions covering naturally, running with mares must be an option, and one could argue, a sensible thing to teach stallions to cope with. |
Roseanne |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 5:11:49 PM
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Lenny is my first young stallion and the summer last year he start covering at tree years old.
Mead is a very bitchy lady and I was a little afraid to let him cover natural.
We try to lead him to the point but he was not interested, so at last we put them out together in a little fence.
First she was a devil, but he was alert and find out he has to take care, later she invited him and she was covered.
Now she is his wife and a good company for him when they are outside, and he learn to behave with mares.
Gunni. |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 5:27:19 PM
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Forgot to say that he is still the same laid back little boy as always, in fact I never hear his voice, when I take him in side in the evening he goes from box to box and say Hello to the others, but no stamping or screeming.
Gunni. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 6:03:58 PM
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| Sounds a perfect arrangement Gunni. I believe horses should be given as natural a life as possible, given our physical and financial limitations of course. I also think a stallion knowing how to respect a mare will make him much better and safer as a ridden horse in the company of other horses. So many stallions are difficult and unmanageable because they are kept so isolated from other horses. Many people's stallions hardly get turned out or ridden out with others but given the right foundations there's no earthly need why not. Horses are 'herd' animals with a natural life cycle to live. Take it away and you make them neurotic. |
Roseanne |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 8:17:25 PM
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thanks gunni, I am pleased for Lenny and you that the arrangement has worked out so well. I am sorely tempted to let him run with my partbred and may risk it but not till Ali is ready to do some ridden work. If he covers my part bred I will have nothing to ride! he is stabled next to her and goes out in an adjoining paddock with an extra strand of electric fence to add some security. Since posting this I have had a man who breeds and shows palominos ringing me up saying he is very interested in using ali on two of his best mares. I'm sure Ali would be delighted and this man has his own stallion as well so is familiar with the breeding process. We will see.....
Thanks everyone.. I can see there are some slight differences of opinion, I guess I will see how things pan out.
PS Roseanne... Ali is going out in hand .. with a saddle on.. no probs .. you can throw rugs, saddles, rollers ... anything on his back and he is not bothered one bit. He did kick a wheely bin today though!! hope they were not looking out their window. He has a bit in his mouth as well but I dont lead him from it. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 9:12:30 PM
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| I reckon the earlier the better Heather! As young as Ali they'll never really have an issue with mares or covering. Only of course, you do need something to ride to keep you in shape!! You could always have my Andalusian on loan!!? |
Roseanne |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2006 : 3:12:40 PM
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I'd love that but my main issue is lack of space... if the planners let me have the extra stables that will be good but I barely have 3 acres of grass. Very kind offer though!
heatherx |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 09:52:00 AM
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Hi Heather
The Palimino man souds a good bet for Ali. However, I would ask to go and see him with his horses and for him to come and handle Ali and then you can decide if you like what you see. If you do then that might be the ideal solution as he will be bigger and stronger than you and know what he is doing.
Hope you have more success than I did with my boy. He had got two of my mares in foal who got through the hedge to him; they could only have been in with him for half an hour or so and were all grazing happily together, had no idea he had mated them so I had a couple of little surprises!
A friend brought a lovely mare to him and he wouldn't have anything to do with her. I had a stallion man from a warmblood stud to help as I was expecting fireworks but he might as well have been a gelding. I kept the mare for three days and he was totally disinterested although he is very stalliony with my mares. I hadn't got the cheek to charge for the mare's keep and as we had a takeaway and a couple of bottles of wine the evening the event should have taken place I was well out of pocket. He is older and wiser now but they do make fools of you!
Whatever you decide, hope all goes well.
Barbara |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 9:53:20 PM
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| That mare was obviously just not good enough for your chap then!! I hope he did not hurt her feelings!. It had not occured to me that the man horse may not fancy the lady horse! The palomino man has not got back to me yet and I have not met him in person, will take your advice on board. Have an actual booking for Ali at end of April so quite exited about that. Will have to see how that goes. She is a sweet calm 15 year old brood mare and will have a young foal at foot. Will be as cautious as it is as possible to be. Thanks for all comment from everyone, I have considered all views and will procede with caution. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 9:15:09 PM
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| Can you tell us the man's name Heather? Or the stud prefix or mare's details? We used to have a regular mare from the Midlands to be bred to our chestnut stallion for palomino babies but the stallion's since been sold to a stud down in the south west and I wondered what they'd do... |
Roseanne |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
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