| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
|
shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 5:55:19 PM
|
So, we're getting better with our ground and ridden manners (long story), but still have problems when lungeing. When his owner lunges Shah he's perfectly fine but as soon as I try he goes fine on one rein but then when I swap he challenges me. He stops, and turns towards me and will not move forward. Before I've just stopped because I didn't want the fight but the other day I got in a real pickle and was so angry with him, which obviously only made it worse.
We ended up with him crowding me and eventually he also reared up in front of me (happened twice, got stuck with front foot in the lunge line once), at the time I was too angry to realise I probably put myself in danger, but it's a piece of behaviour that just has to stop. I was using poles to break up the rhytm and to keep him interested.
Before you say 'give him a smack when naughty' you need to know that he still thinks he's a stallion (again, long story) and will resort to fight when he thinks he's challenged. The more you smack him the worse he gets.
I suspect one of the problems could be my body language, but I don't know what my body language should be in these situations?
I also think it was his way of protesting (he's such a smart cookie  ) to the fact that he wasn't taken out for a hack but made to go around in the school over poles!!!! I certainly learned my lesson!!!!
Any thoughts?
|
West Sussex |
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 6:25:08 PM
|
HiT
Just wondered if you went ahead with Jodi in the end?
Judith |
    |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 7:39:01 PM
|
| Drive him from behind,flick the whip at his shoulder to keep him out and use strong commands without repeating yoursef alot.I.e, WALK ON.......silence ,next command STAND etc etc,try and imagine your long reining whilst keeping in a circle.I bet he's fine on the left rein and naughty on the right? Basically its the way we lead them always from the left they are allways more suppler that way.Be positive MEAN IT,lunge him on his good rein be positive get a good thing going,then without thinking too much about it swap reins,step back and drive him forward,im really interested to hear how you get on ive been down this road myself with our stallion as a baby! Happy days! |
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 7:50:57 PM
|
I have had the pleasure recently of watching an excellent natural horsemanship trainer work with my friend's troubled TB. His work is based on communicating & asking questions in the right way so the horse understands what response you want. He taught my friend body language cues her horse could understand & interpret. The difference was amazing, & he thinks most horses will show drastic improvement after 3 sessions. I am generally cynical about so-called trainers, but this guy really opened my mind. I think so often we confuse our horses & then get cross when they don't exhibit the behaviour we expected (not saying you are, just in general). Arabs especially are so sensitive & intelligent, I think the only way to get good results is to work with them, & ask, not tell!!
I'm happy to pass on his contact details/costs etc. Send me an e-mail at gill.frost@adur.gov.uk will be nice to catch up. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 09:54:27 AM
|
Moonfruit - I'll email you, I think we may be ready now for something like you're suggesting. I completely agree that with Arabs you have to ask, not tell, and I know my body language plays a big part and I may very well be confusing him.
Judith - we didn't go ahead with Jodi because of various reasons. I've implemented a range of other methods that are starting to make a difference, it's just a very long journey.
Libby - you're absolutely right, left rein is fine and right is where he plays up (although when ridden it's the other way around). I do try to drive him from behind, but he's so quick at turning it's difficult to be consistent and once he's turned he normally walks towards me rather than forwards. He's just like a child trying it on all the time!
T |
West Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 1:33:45 PM
|
Hi Tabita I met you at AV Arabians. That was a week before I fell off my quite sharp gelding and broke my leg So my message is please be careful! (I am sure you are) My horse is harder for me to lunge than the YO too (impossible for me at the moment) and will turn in on the right rein. Since breaking my leg I have been watching v kind YO lungeing him for me and I have noticed
she never attempts to even carry a whip
she makes him practise walk and halt several times before trot
He also loads better for the YO Its all a bit depressing
I think all these things must come with experience! I am tempted to go the natural horsemanship route but having seen a few of the videos (plenty of tim with a broken leg) there seems to be a lot of 'sending away' is that what its called? I am a bit worried that my horse will think that is the greatest game on earth and NEVER be caught again. I think I may have to spend six weeks on horse psycology. Anyway I dont think any of this is helpful except to let you know that you are not on your own!
Julia
|
   
West Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 2:25:29 PM
|
Sorry to hear about your leg Julia - I hope it's not too bad and will heal properly.
I know what you mean about 'sending away'. I have trouble sometimes getting Shah to stop chasing me, he would love playing the game of being chased!
I am really tempted to plan a session with the person Moonfruit suggested. If anyone else would be interested in coming along or joining up with me let me know as it might be easier to get him to travel if there are several of us. |
West Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 3:35:26 PM
|
| If he turns in on you you have to quickly get behind and drive forward! and keep doing it! You WILL win in the end! |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 4:25:31 PM
|
| I completely agree with Libby. The secret of lungeing is to always drive from behind---you have to move as much, and as fast as the horse to begin with!! Forget about that image in your head of standing in the middle while he goes round--move with him, move the circle, think long-reigning and always drive. |
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
|
|
Amanda Teale
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 5:41:41 PM
|
Hi Shah
My first Arab gelding used to do exactly the same thing. He was gelded late. He used to do it on both Reins!!! and strike out. It is a very long story how we sorted things out, a fantastic voyage of equine education. He taught me not to be a Novice. Our journey did go via "Natural Horsemanship", I would gladly share the story with you if you want.
But you problem probably does stem from lack of trust and respect on both sides, and a little fear I am sure. Do not feel ashamed to admit this, because once you do you can start to find out how to over come these problems.
I ended up being able to go anywhere, anytime, any weather with my boy. We became friends and parteners. He even protected me from a Strange Man that appeared on my yard one night.
Anyway in the mean time a tip I can give is, learn to long rein and lunge on two lines, this makes it harder for him to turn in because he is leaning against his own weight. Once you obtain some success with this it is wonderful how it helps to built your confidence. The more confident you become, the more respectful your horse will become. This particular tip helped a lot with my boy, it is not a full cure, because you still need to earn your horses respect in all situations, but definitely helps.
If you do want to share stories and tips you can contact me, I am in sussex too.
Amanda
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 7:13:14 PM
|
Arachnid - the 'sending away' you mention is something practised by Monty Roberts & similar (also called 'join up') and personally it's not something I advocate. It works well on wild mustangs, but serves to confuse horses who are already people-friendly.
If you just want some food for thought I recommend reading Mark Rashid's books. He does not practice any particular techniques, he works with horses as individuals, trying to help them understand what we want of them by learning from them how to ask the questions. His books are excellent. He just tells stories of horses he's worked with. You won't come away with a set list of methods to use on your horse, rather you will have a new perspective on how to approach training. His work is based on patience, compassion & consistency, something we could all benefit from using. Reading his books has been life altering. I thought 'natural horsemanship' might be all about chasing them around pens, having to buy special halters & ending up with a horse that walks all over you, but I was wrong! Mark's work is truly inspiring, and has changed the way I will work with my horses forever. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 9:44:02 PM
|
Hi Gill,
I have just finished reading Mark Rashid's "horses never lie" and Im now on Tom Widdicombes "be with your horse" recommended to me by Amym. They really are great reading and certainly get the old grey matter working!!!
As for "sending away" I totally agree. Friends on our yard encouraged me to do it with Freddie - big mistake, really worried and confused him. His poor face was so concerned why Mum didnt want him anymore and it really upset me. Swore I would never do it again. Until one day in his paddock, he was really badly behaved, all wound up by the other horses and kicked at me when I was changing his rug. Then I implemented it, chased him away and continued to head him off and keep him running. It worked a treat in that situation, all he wanted was the chance to come to me and say sorry and I have never had to do it again. Certainly wouldnt suggest using it without considerable thought as to the consequences!!(and you have to know them well enough to know how far to take it - dangerous game I think) |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 11:11:21 AM
|
now you see this is what i hate about some so called 'natural trainers'. i consider myself a natural trainer (have been recommened as a 'horse whisperer' and not a term i like used regarding myself as it implies i agree with the likes of monty roberts and i most certainly don't) and therefore see it as part of my job to help people such as yourselves understand that concepts in full. some trainers are actually helping to put people off nh as they are not explaining it fully and so people are getting into trouble trying to use methods they don't understand.
this is a prime example, you are all taking about 'sending away' this is actually a very usfull thing to do but it has to be done in the right context and you have to understand why and when to use it. it is not a problem solver for everything and imo should not be done in a round pen.
the concept of it is this. in the wild herd you will have a lead mare and dominant stallion. the stallion is there to protect his right to cover the mares and move them from danger. it is the lead mares job to keep order within the herd and teach the others where and when to find the best food and water. leadership isn't about who can give the best beating (a fact that alot of riders who advocate a bad smacking for everything ought to learn), the rest of the herd must respect the leader and most will not be purely bullied. to this end the lead mare has to have certain tricks she can use. sending away is one of them. horses feel comfortable within the herd structure as it gives them safty. to be sent away from the herd is a bad thing for them as it may put them in danger. as soon as this happens (and this may only mean that the lead mare puts herself between the horse in question and the rest of the herd, not litrally driven completely away)the naughty horse will start to try and get her forgiveness. he will lick and chew and try to creep back to the herd. when the mare accepts the apology the horse is allowed back in.
however, you should note that this is all to do with the 'lead mare', no other horse (with the exception of the stallion driving away the colts that may challenge him, and that is something totally different) can do this. now this is where people come unstook when trying to do it themselves. how many times have you seen a new horse put into an established herd? have you ever noticed that sometimes without trying a certain horse will be able to automaticly fit in to take its place without doing anything at all? this even applies to the leadership and it's all about body language and the amount of dominance that the already lead horse has. this is what enables some people to use the 'send away' (or appear to use it, some don't use it for what it is intended in the herd. but meerly to put the horse into submission. this is not a good thing to do as this horse will laways challenge you) without any problems, while others have huge problems with it. it stands to reason that if the horse doesn't see you as his leader in the first place there is no way this will work!
you must use other methods first to gain the horses loyalty (this is not about the horse loving you more than anyone else, just him seeing you as leader and not himself over you). now the other point about this is knowing when to use it. if the horse deems that he has done nothing wrong, and horses will do what you ask them if you ask correctly, so if you send away and they deem themselves right you will get one of two things: a horse who is upset and confused, or one who will fight back.
stallions are always hard to work with as they are not bred to be dominated, they are designed to challenge. therefore you have to find a way around this. going right back to the basica of nh will help you but you need someone with experience to teach you how to read the signs as they are far more subtle than given credit for.
suzanne |
suzanne walsh
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 11:19:58 AM
|
also meant to say that with a horse who reacts like this, long reining is not a great option. the last thing you need is getting tied up with 2 reins, they don't always stop a horse comming in at you. what you do need to do is teach your horse to back up without you being near him. the yoyo game is great for this. also driving from behind is not an option with a horse who thinks he's a stallion having his dominance tested. using the whip near his quarters can actually exagerate what he is already trying to do.
if you feel you can't work through this by yourself then you do need someone there with you who can help you read this horse more carefully. this is a top reaction when based on a scale. he will have alreday given you loads of signals before that he thinks you have ignored, thus giving him the right to do what he's doing. you need to learn how to stop the eary signs first.
you can email me if you wnat to ask anything at suneanarab@hotmail.com
suzanne |
suzanne walsh
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 12:49:57 PM
|
I'd agree with Amanda. I always lunge on two reins and, unless it's with a saddle so I can ride straight afterwards, I use a roller with rings so the outside rein can go over at the shoulder.
The benefit of this is threefold. Firstly because the horse can't turn in on you - you are using the reins like you would if you were riding; secondly you are keeping the horse's shoulders straight which is important for his carriage, physical development and future flatwork training (horses tend to twist slightly when being lunged on one rein); and lastly because you can use the outside rein to flick gently on his side or rump to ask him to move on (if you're not inclined to use a whip).
It takes a little bit of practise to get used to two reins but is invaluable. It's also great to continue long reining in the same session with youngsters.
But if it's all a bit new, I'd suggest seeing if you can 'borrow' an experienced horse to practise with so you can then lunge your stallion confidently.
Best of luck. |
Roseanne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 1:20:57 PM
|
Thanks for all your comments, very interesting. I've got some ideas and I'll let you know how things go.
I need to add that he isn't actually a stallion (or rig) but gelded and backed late so display a lot of stallion behaviour and thinking. |
West Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 10:38:16 AM
|
hi shah,
don't think anyone was thinking he was a stallion as you had said so. i was using the stallion mentality as an example of how he may be thinking as he was gelded late.
it is a misconception that horses can't turn in on you when lunging with 2 reins. i have a mare who is excellent at doing just that! |
suzanne walsh
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 8:40:53 PM
|
Whatever you do, if it isn't working try something else. My stallion (have never had anything to do with entire boys before) will challenge (not in a nasty way)and if I try to dominate him it makes the situation worse. When he is bolshy if I become all lovey to him he responds and becomes all lovey back. I was told that this was the wrong thing to do but by trying to be the dominant one he became more macho. Like people, horse are individuals and he respects me without feeling that he has to be submissive; we are a partnership. He knows I love and respect him and I think he feels the same about me. He is a cheeky boy; I love that about him, but if he oversteps the mark he knows it and gets all silly and jumpy.
Do what works for your horse. If what you are doing doesn't produce the result you want, try something else and eventually you will find the key for him.
Good luck
Barbara |
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
| |
Topic |
|
Topic Locked 
