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Wyllow
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2005 : 10:16:01 PM
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There has been much discussion here of late about "Natural Horsemanship" and more recently the subject of bitless bridles has been raised too ~ most interesting.
So, what I'd like to ask is ~ do you ride with spurs and do you carry whips?
Do you consider the nudge with a spur more subtle than the the boot heel without?
Do you dislike spurs ?
Do you always carry a whip?
Do you prefer an alternative or do you ride without one?
I'd love to hear all your thoughts on these points
as "Natural Horsemanship" seems to be ever more popular and it's interesting to know what trends are being followed and which ones are yielding safe and effective results.
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 07:16:38 AM
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Many years ago I was taught to use spurs and whips.
Since I have had arabs I have not used them.. I only ever scholl or hack out in the natural halter.
Some people have been sceptical about the capability of getting the horse "on the bit". This is very possible without a bit as surely it is the riding from behind that gives this effect.
My horse would never back up happily. Now he goes backwards as if he is saying to me " now I have taught you how to back up".
It is worth a try but the older the horse the more patient you have to be because they are so use to the conventional way. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 1:53:31 PM
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I never use spurs - rarely kick as from the beginning they all go on and slow down by voice command and then that translates into light squeezes from the leg. If they get lazy at that - not something I've found with Arabs much, I then use a very bendy schooling whip to touch. I always carry one, feel naked without it, but hardly ever have to use it!
Since I concentrate on ridden showing I would think it's fatal to get a horse used to spurs since judges never wear them, and if your horse is used to them they could perform very differently with a spur-less judge on board. |
Roseanne |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 6:13:59 PM
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Wyllow - you have raised an interesting issue. I just had a bit of a rant on the 'Bitless' thread, but to reiterate, I disagree with whips & spurs entirely (as I do all other so called 'aids'). If you feel you 'need' all this gadgets you shouldn't be riding.
A friend of mine has recently been having lessons with a respected dressage trainer (don't know the name) who has instructed her not to use her legs at all. True riding is done with the seat, voice & weight!! I agree with this.
Fair enough, I'm not exactly a top dressage rider, but I follow these principles & believe I can safely say my horse is happier than those poor beasts foaming at the mouth in double bridles with spurs stuck in their sides!
Training should be done with respect & kindness. Ideas about the need to dominate & prove who's boss to the horse have been largely discarded by equine behaviour scientists, so the 'old school' methods are dying off a little (hence the rise in natural horsemanship, parelli etc).
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 02:38:42 AM
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It is very interesting to read reactions to this issue and it will be interesting to note the absence of comments too.
Are we making more traditional riders who feel their methods to be perfectly humane ( and from what I've seen of those who have ridden for longer than I've been alive, many probably are kind and fair ), feel "politically incorrect"? ( How I hate that blasted awful, meaningless term!)
I respect methods which consider the horse's welfare and feelings and would love to see every horse ridden kindly and with understanding ~ given that climbing onto a horse is unnatural for the horse in the first place.
As I said in "bitless bridles" thread, I've thrown out so much equipment and my horses are so "natural" that we don't do much any more other than ride about in the field or on the tracks......... the list will grow of disliked devices ~ bits, nosebands, martingles, spurs, confined spaces like stables or trailers, invasive gadgets like shoes...... pretty soon all I'll do with them is PAT THEM!
It's actually all I've done for two weeks.
Wondering if you upset or hurt them makes you question everything and not come up with altogether comfortable answers and I reckon my horses always have been very much considered and treated with understanding.....but all the same....do bits hurt, are saddles simply tolerated, what does the horse actually think about stables, rugs, tack, trailers, someone on his back, jumping, dressage...being ridden anyway? Just because they allow you to, does it mean that they do anything other than "bear it" or is the attention they receive gratification and reward enough to keep doing it?
There are some horses, after all that seem to thrive on work and look to go out, go to situations where they are admired and applauded. Some handlers will tell you that taking a veteran out to a specialised class or parading an old horse an an event will "perk" him up no end ~ as if he really does enjoy it.
But until we can really "speak" their language a little more sensitively, can we really know what is enjoyment and what is just stimulation or adrenalin running? What is seen as true reward and what is seen as simply taking off the pressure as everything you ask a horse to do under saddle or between shafts is "unnatural" in the strictest sense and taking the point further, is it ethical?
I'm beginning to think that if I keep thinking this way, I'll not be getting back on at all and certainly not allowing my children to do it.
Yet, how many ponies have you seen that seem to love pony club style games and gallop down the field with the rider vaulting on and leaping off, doing some very odd things indeed....are we kidding ourselves when we say the ponies LIKE to do it?
Are we kidding ourselves when we actually think, however, that has horse perceives pleasure and displeasure as we do?
Are we just judging a being unlike us in an unnatural way by saying he THINKS about what he does in the same sort of way we do because I doubt if a horse will evaluate a situation that much if it's in his mind to fight or flee ~ he just does it.
That doesn't mean we have the right to force him ~ but on the other hand, if you keep horses because you want to ride them, how far do you go with "ethics" ?
Like the brand of "vegetarianism" that allows dairy food or eggs and animals are still "used", "Natural Horsemanship" that insists on everything being "back to nature" but that being whilst the horse gets ridden would eventually have to conclude that riding a horse is not natural at all and certainly not in his best interests in the same way that veggies would eventually have to give up anything animal based ~ including vegetables grow with the use of bone meal fertilizer if they were to truly support a no exploitation policy.
I think as with anything, where no pain or exploitation and where consideration and kindness are emp;oyed, then surely common sense dictates to each individual where to draw the line in his or her situation.
The oldest horse I knew kept fit and well and happy in work, stimulated and well cared for until he was nearly FORTY! I doubt many naturally living wild horses or feral ponies ever get to see that age and yes, I believe he was contented. So maybe there IS something in it for the horse and "think" in quite the way we do or not, doubtless he KNOWS when he is loved. |
Edited by - Wyllow on 23 May 2005 07:20:39 AM |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 08:03:12 AM
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Nicci, how beautifully put.
I too am of an age when as a younger person I too rode with whips and spurs. I am horrified at myself now looking back. Both my Arab gelding and my welsh mare are ridden in happy mouth bits and they are 5 and 13 respectively. I do carry a schooling whip with me but purely so that I can stick it (almost horizontally) as cars go by, it hits the cars if they get too close. I also use the whip to flick flies off in the summer. And neither of my two mind this as they know I won't hurt them as neither of them have ever been hit by a whip. Having said that like Roseanne, I do feel naked without a whip, but that is because I use it for other purposes not for encouraging my horse to move on.
Nicky |
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 09:31:56 AM
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Nicky
I too always carry a schooling whip whilst out hacking in order to keep cars at distance and have broken a fair few in this way! However I also use it as an aid when schooling but there is a big difference between tickling them and hitting them. I don't think we can condemn people who use spurs as long as they know what they are doing. It is when inexperienced people get hold of these things and use them to excess that it becomes a problem. I find just raising my voice gets a reaction as it is so rare that I have to do it, some people seem to spend far too much time shouting at their horses and children! and wonder why they don't take any notice. |
      
Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 10:09:17 AM
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Yes, I have used a long schooling whip as an anti car device too! I rarely venture onto roads any more as car drivers are SO inconsiderate.
I also use voice more than any other "aid" and find it more effective than just about anything else to calm a horse , stop him from doing something or to chivvy one along.As a driver of a pony it is ESSENTIAL!!!!
Voice is MUCH underestimated and I'm not knocking the dressage riders but WHY can one not use voice commands as I think it is a perfectly acceptable and perhaps the most humane means of instructing a horse to do something. |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 1:48:54 PM
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Nicci - have to say I totally agree with your long post above. I have spent hours musing on how I treat my horse, why I do it, whether she enjoys any of it etc. If I think about it too long she will just end up as pampered field ornnament!!
The Pony Club had a show at our yard last weekend, and I'm afraid I only felt very sorry the ponies. No one was actively being 'cruel' but they practised jumps over & over again, stood around in the rain for ages, hurtled round gymkhana games etc. My friend & I were chatting as we overheard someone saying "he loves jumping [the pony]. He gets really excited at the sight of fences" and to be honest our thoughts were more that he is probably displaying a stress reaction. Perhaps anticipating pain (from his tack, or sore back etc)? I don't think horses genuinely love jumping. You don't see them choose to pop over logs in the wild when they can walk round them! But I think we can use training to make it a reasonably pleasureable experience for them.
I find it hard to believe there's much in it for them, allowing us to ride, compete them etc. But one has to marry up one's beliefs and what is possible. I get tremendous pleasure from my mare's company, but I do love to ride her as well. So it leaves a dilema, and like you say Nicci, perhaps not always comfortable answers when you delve into the issue.
It is impossible to think along lines of natural horse care and not, at some point, conclude that riding & keeping our horses is pretty unnatural in all respects. However, we can obviously lessen the burden by being aware of the signs they give us to indicate pain or fear, and to be as considerate as possible to these wonderful creatures with whom we are lucky to share our lives. |
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Katie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
527 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 3:28:21 PM
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While I agree with a lot which has been said before me I just thought I would give you a less "deep" reply!
I have never used spurs, so I cannot comment on this, I have however used a whip in the past.
I do not agree with people using a whip just for the sake of it, but I do believe in certain circumstances one quick tap with a whip is kinder than a constant thumping with the legs......
I have not used a whip for years though, and never on my pba mare as she was very responsive to the leg. |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 6:44:07 PM
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At least there's two of us wondering in this way, Gill ~ and I suspect there are far more too! It can only lead to kinder riding. I don't think it makes us ineffectual or wimpy ~ I've had people suggest it ~ but I think they've missed the point that if you are to cut down on artificial aids and tack then you need to make your personality felt more and actually become MORE assertive and clearer in your requests to the horse.
I love to ride and I do try to find compromises between what I believe the horse feels and what I'd like to do ~ as I've said before, I hope they always see me as the "leader" not because I want to dominate but because I can offer the security and place of safety they need in a situation of dilemma.
I'd agree that a tap with the whip beats thumping with the legs and I do like to have one with me ~ but all I ever do onboard my Arab is raise the end of it into her line of vision and that usually has an effect!!
I dare not apply one to Jasper unless I want a rodeo horse!!!!!!
Milly needs reminding now and then from the driving seat of the carriage ~ but a little flick lets her know I mean " wake up!" and driving whips are another matter altogether as you can hardly count LEGS as aids in this situation! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 9:33:04 PM
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Horses in the wild would be moving from grazing land to more grazing land so I do think they like roving through new places, rather than being stuck in one small paddock. Variety versus security..
It could be fear of course, or animal alertness, but both my boys seem to really like hacking out to different places especially in company - barring anything frightening happening such as particularly heavy traffic or strong winds.
I can't see the need or excuse for spurs. If you accept that a horse can feel when a fly lands on it, using metal prods with the strength of a human's leg is inexcuseable! Using a schooling whip to tap gently to reinforce the message of a slight leg aid (and once the penny's dropped you don't ever need to do that again) is just like writing a note to someone to reiterate what you've said. It should only be a reinforcement, never a punishment.
Arabs in particular are so intelligent (although I think all horses are brilliantly intelligent) they need less reinforcement, just consistency, fairness and - what this thread seems to be about - understanding of the horse as an intelligent animal.
I've always worried about how humans try to demonstrate their power - brute strength - over horses when it is not necessary if things are done sensibly from the start...
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jo c
Silver Member
United Kingdom
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 10:45:32 AM
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I've never used spurs, and carry a whip for much the same reasons as others- cars and also gate opening 
I have just started jumping my boy and I have to say he seems to love it. When we started I was worried about asking to much from him, so knowing he loves free schooling (just me and him in the arena totally loose)we started this way. My mates at the yard thought I was mad, but stood back whist I ran full pelt over a small course of jumps....with my boy following every single one just like a big dog  !!We do this most days and he has learned to carry himself really well. It probably isn't the best training method but it has worked for us and when I now ride him over them he seems totally confident about it. I think horses are much like us and some will jump just for the fun of it whilst for others (like my husbands ex-national hunt horse) it has become a chore that given the option they will avoid.I hope that by giving Saki a fun introduction at a youngish age to jumping he will have the right attitude to it in the future.
p.s I am now very fit and have saved a fortune in gym membership |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 12:34:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wyllow
I'd agree that a tap with the whip beats thumping with the legs and I do like to have one with me ~ but all I ever do onboard my Arab is raise the end of it into her line of vision and that usually has an effect!!
I too carry a whip - because my older mare in particular takes the p. if you don't carry one...don't need to do anything with it normally (except as Wyllow mentions above!) or tap my own leg with it (to make a noise). I do find it useful though to tap the shoulder with when a horse is distracted and looking for bears in the bushes - it helps get their attention back. I also find it useful to get cars to give us more respect - isn't it stupid that drivers are more afraid of getting their paintwork scratched than of being killed by having half a ton of horse through the windscreen?!?
From my own observations of various species, I think all mammals are more alike than we are different - emotionally as well as physically. Horses may have different triggers and different ways of expressing themselves, but the fact that we are able to build a relationship with them is surely indicative of how similar our needs and pleasures are. The Arab has been selected for many generations to be 'people friendly', so we already have a breed that wants to bond with us and work with us. The key is to 'work with': not force or dominate.
Keren |
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Eunette
Gold Member
United Kingdom
629 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 1:18:58 PM
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Keren I completly agree with everything you have said. I also carry a whip when riding - sometimes - when I feel Ollie is having an extra wired day I leave it behind. However I also use a whip when lunging often at the end of each session I stand ollie still and run the whip all over his body/head/legs etc so he knows that he can trust me and however scary it may look I won't abuse him with it. I think even the 'natural horsemanship' tools of trade such as pressure halters etc can be lethal if in the wrong hands. when asked to submit our questions at a local monty roberts demo my question was - The pressure halter looks great and when you are using it works well in theory but surely in inexperienced hands it could be used badly and cause further damage to somebodies 'problem horse'. My question wasn't one of those answered. Everything we do to our horses could be severe depending on the way we approach it. It is up to us to understand our own horses behaviour to decide what suits the individual. Like us all horses are individual we must build strong realationships with them to help us try and read what they are trying to tell us.
I was in Ollies stable at the weekend with my mum and got a bit emotional - ok very emotional - Ollie nudged my mum out of the way and proceeded to remove (with his nose) the tears from my face after doing so he wrapped his head around my neck and pulled me into his shoulder in a hug like fashion I felt completly comforted he didn't move until the tears had stopped. From this I am feeling he doesn't hold me carrying a whip or putting a bit in his mouth against me.
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 1:27:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Eunette
Like us all horses are individual we must build strong realationships with them to help us try and read what they are trying to tell us.
I was in Ollies stable at the weekend with my mum and got a bit emotional - ok very emotional - Ollie nudged my mum out of the way and proceeded to remove (with his nose) the tears from my face after doing so he wrapped his head around my neck and pulled me into his shoulder in a hug like fashion I felt completly comforted he didn't move until the tears had stopped. From this I am feeling he doesn't hold me carrying a whip or putting a bit in his mouth against me.
One of our boys got a bit bumptious last week and gave me an over-enthusiastic 'love bite' (we have rules about this - holding is OK, biting is not). When I showed him the mark he'd made on my arm, he was very contrite and stood and licked the place. If that isn't affection and bonding, I don't know what is 
Keren |
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jo c
Silver Member
United Kingdom
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 2:16:09 PM
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Torey- thats so lovely,and I think as long as you have a relationship like that with your horse you can't go far wrong
Mine always tends to know when i'm down and is extra loving- although recently when i was tearful he 'accidently' trod on my foot whilst getting hugs- the pain did stop me being over emotional though |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 2:47:49 PM
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It's so lovely when you have that bond with your horse. I fully understand why some people use whips are a reinforcer or 'car scarer!'. It is the abuse of the trust these beautiful creatures put in us that upsets me. Like has been said, they are sensitive enough to feel a tiny fly on them, so I think spurs are totally uneccessary.
Nicci - I know what you mean. Those very 'horsey' (competitive) people have often said I am too soft etc. But I don't allow Amira or any horse to disrespect me, what I believe in is mutual respect, and that is what I teach. If she bites me, she will get told off, but I do not believe in effectively punishing her for nothing, which is what I think a lot of these gadgets do. I agree that in wrong hands even so called kind tools are open to abuse, which is why I avoid them.
Horse behaviourists have been writing about the co operation between horses, and the pressure-release system of training, which in my experience has been far more effective than any kind of bullying or punishing.
What always shocks & saddens me is how quick people are to blame their horse for it's behaviour, rather than assuming themselves to be the cause of it. How often do you hear people cursing their horse? "Silly beasst, he shied at that bag". Usually they get a nice sharp slap for exhibiting perfectly natural responses to either outside stimulus or our ineffective riding & training. I think that most people are either ignorant of or unwilling to examine how influential everything they do is to their horse.
I am very glad though that on the whole people are taking a greater in interest in natural methods & horse behaviour in general, although I also feel that the 'traditioonal' methods are far more firmly entrenched in peoples' minds. Old habits die very hard in the horse world. |
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