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mogwai
Platinum Member
 England
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 6:22:13 PM
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I have read in a number of Arabian books of "culls" if the breeding stock aren't producing decent offspring. Does this actually mean that they are turned out of the stud to non breeding homes, or does it mean they're disposed of entirely?
I'm just interested really, though i will obviously have a fairly strong opinion if it's the latter. I think the first place i saw it was in a crabbet book. The second was i think about Tersk (don't quote me on this, i may be wrong).
Ros
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 6:56:14 PM
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Ros I fear the latter  especially large studs like Tersk. I think too not only if they don't produce well, but also if they have produced all they can this happens. Polianka's dam produced many offspring for Tersk, so she did produce well, but when I asked someone (not from Tersk) where she might be now they said they cull them at the end of their breeding  I do hope this isn't the case as I'd love to take her and give her a long and happy retirement. Maybe someone on here will know exactly what happens and how we can find out. I'd love to know if Polinezia is still living and give her a home with her daughter and grand-daughter 
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 7:34:53 PM
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| so very very sad, if this is happening then it is real abuse on a large scale stories like this make us dedicated breeders furious!!! DO NOT BREED UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO STAND BY THE ANIMALS YOU USE, AND THE YOUNSTOCK YOU PRODUCE!! i never breed a foal unless i know i can run it on, or untill i find the best and most loving home, i also retain what i can. I just get so mad when i hear these sort of stories, yes i know we are a throw away society, but for gods sake not with animals!!!! |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 7:44:13 PM
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Unfortunately some of the very large studs are Horse Farms and the mares/stallions are classed rather like cattle. Produce good stock and they are used as breeding machines...annually turning out the goods.
But......if they do not...then culled...just as cattle, they
become meat!!! Same goes, even for the very top Mares and Stallions...no such luck, retirement to lush paddocks....no way,off to the abbatior for them!! Absolutely no sentiment from horse farm owners.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 01 Jun 2009 10:22:09 PM |
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kate b
Gold Member
Wales
1418 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 7:58:49 PM
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Their justification for their actions, is that lower quality horses are taken out of the gene pool, therefore the breed should get better and better. Other studs sell on their lower quality stock and keep hold of the better quality, therefore lower quality horses are bred from. As already stated, there has been little sentiment in the state studs in Russia and Poland and so on.
While I in no way condone their actions, there is some logic. There would be a lot less 'unwanted' horses in the world. Also I suppose by culling the older horses once they reach the end of their useful life ensures they arent sold on to less than desireable homes where they may be neglected in any way. Personally if I had an older horse that wasnt broken in and was too old to breed (and therefore of no use to anybody else) I would PTS rather than risk an unknown future for it if I was to find I was unable to care for it.
Kate |
      
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Edited by - kate b on 01 Jun 2009 8:02:39 PM |
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Sadika
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3520 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 8:03:33 PM
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| Years ago I picked up a booklet about Polish mares - it listed their produce and alot had the word "eliminated" next to a particular year's foal ... |
Marilyn
     
www.sweetphotography.com ** Now available online Our 2016 Galleries ** |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 8:30:39 PM
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I actually find this completely abhorent! We are talking about living breathing animals, not an upgraded model of an older car!!
If we breed, we need to attempt always to improve on what we started with, however we mustn't lose sight of the fact that that this is a living, breathing animal. How dare studs play god. If they feel there are no homes for older mares who have served them well and provided quality offspring year after year after year, then STOP BREEDING!This isn't about not finding a home for an aged, well loved family pet who you are unable to keep due to dire financial reasons, so feeling it is best to PTS. This is not about putting to sleep an occassional foal born with a deformity that will prevent it living a fullfilled and happy life. This is about ritual, routine KILLING of beautiful, wonderful creatures that just don't quite make the grade, or are too old to breed from any more.
I am absolutely sickened to the core! |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 9:09:20 PM
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Sadly it is true and certainly went on here in UK as well as other countries. Even foals not sold were sent to slaughter, quite sickening! In my book if you have an animal you are responsible for it and if it has given you foals/been a ridden horse etc then you have a duty of care to allow it to have a decent retirement. Unfortunately, not everyone feels the same. That is the difference between people who do it as a business and those of us who do it for the love of the animal and as a (very expensive) hobby.
I can understand that someone who has to pay livery charges may not be able to keep an old horse in retirement for years but at least it could have a few months to enjoy life and then be PTS.
Fortunately I have my own land (and a huge loan to pay for it) so I am able to keep my horses with only the extra feed and any vets bills, I don't have to pay for my extra stabling and grazing.
Barbara |
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kate b
Gold Member
Wales
1418 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 9:16:15 PM
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Unfortunately these studs are run as a business with no sentiment. Horses in the state studs are just a step forward to the next (and improved) generation. If a horse cannot provide this step forward it is not required. As stated, treated very much like cattle.
Some might argue that the most successful and long running studs in the world are the Russian and Polish State Studs.
What happens to the 'not so good' foals that are produced in this country, and others? I like to think that a vast majority of them are found loving caring homes - but how many are packed off the sales, unregistered??? We will never know how many, as no-one will ever own up to it, but we know it happens.
As I say, I dont agree with the way the state studs operate in any way. We who adore our horses will never quite comprehend their philosophy, but I doubt it will change.
Kate
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 10:54:54 PM
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| This thread has made me want to tell a true and heart warming story, my sister purchased a trakehner mare and decided to put it in foal before breaking her and had planned to keep the foal for her husband to ride, hence her choice of using an irish draft stallion. Lady ace as she was known was superbly bred being sired by the famous stallion cannabis, well the covering went well but lady just refused to be examined by the vet for a pregnancy test so we took the chance and left her be, sods law when she foaled (almost to the date) she foaled twins! one was much bigger (the colt) and the filly was very small with really bendy legs, well it became obvious very shortly after birth the colt was in dire trouble and even after the vets intervention and all the help we could give him sadly he died. The filly although small and very weak fought for survival we helped her to the teat at regular intervals untill she was strong enough to get up and down herself, lots off people told us we were wasting our time and it would be better to put her down as she would never come right! This thought never entered my sisters head or mine!!! we battled on and on strapping her legs up to help her gain strength and stability and slowly but surely she got better and better. well lucky as we called her was such a character but it became obvious she would never be able to be ridden as she had developed bench knees, her dam was 15.3h and her sire 16.2h but she was just 14h and had a huge body on such little stocky legs that meant they were never going to be able to cope with work. Well after much deliberation and talks with Mrs Ray of sunray stud we decided to let her have a foal so she could run out with the other mares and feel complete, Babs Ray advised my sister to use her 14.2h riding pony stallion scenario because lucky was so small yet her bloodlines were full of big big horses and we were all worried she might breed bigger than her body could manage! well lucky duly foaled a big chesnut colt foal that at the age of weaning stood as tall as her!!! his registered name was talisman and pet name bouncer! bouncer because he had movement to die for!!! well as the years passed by Lucky started to get arthritis in her poorly knees and sadly had to be PTS at the age of eight, BUT and this is the reason for this true story, bouncer grew to a strapping 16h and became a fabulous dressage horse and even to this day no one believes he is by a 14.2h riding pony stallion!!!! The moral of the story... Be true to your horse and they will be true to you!!! Lucky would have been dumped by these callous studs yet she gave us endless pleasure, and life to her own very talented son. |
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Edited by - vjc on 01 Jun 2009 10:56:07 PM |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 12:03:23 AM
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| There has been some major culls happening on TB studs in this country for over a year now as foals are not fetching their minimum required at auction. And many of you will be financing one of them weekly without ever realising it. |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 08:03:00 AM
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Vjc, that is a heartwarming story, but only makes me feel more grief for all those 99.9% perfect foals that are "eliminated" without any chance at life, love or anything else!
I am sure this does/has gone on in this country.
Appalling
Ros |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 08:19:54 AM
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| I can quite believe this as many years ago an arab breeder, who shall obviously be nameless, told me that that was what they do with colts especially is they are small or they have too many. At the time it shocked me and I decided that they were not telling the truth but I eventually believed it. |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 08:22:48 AM
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| I too am appalled to think this goes on and is now a matter of course defra are quick to bring in passports and idendichips for foals so why the hell is there not a duty of care brought in to protect the stock that is bred!!!! where is this so called aninmal welfare law now!!!! |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 08:33:25 AM
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Several studs in this country who are very well known sent foals for slaughter if they were not sold by Cristmas to make way for next year's crop. It was a business and as such there was no room for something that cost money to feed (although some didn't even do that, they were just chucked out in a field and left to get on with it). The best were sold or kept to be shown and used for breeding and the rest were disposable. I didn't believe it when I was first told but I have met people who worked for the studs (some left when that happened) so I know it is true.
I also know of studs who sedate horses when someone is coming to view them as the horses have been handled so little and are very nervous so sedation takes the edge off and they are quiet and nice for the prospective new owner.
Barbara |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 09:10:19 AM
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Surely these foals can go on and make lovely riding horses. Not everyone is into showing in hand and would love to have one of these *Culled* foals to ride eventually.
How sad
Not every stallion and mare can produce top quality show horses 100% of the time can they? So why cant these foals go on and make good riding horses.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 09:21:18 AM
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This happens in all spheres of the horse world. Always has and probably always will. At the end of the day horses are no different to cows, sheep etc. only to the sentimentalists. Not that I agree with it but it is a fact of life. It's only because we don't eat horses here that we consider them different from other animals in the food chain. The other animals have senses and feelings too.
In our local paper, every year there were foals advertised, from a big pony stud, for very little money and those that didn't sell went to the slaughter-house. The good ones already sold for big money.
Very wrong but true!!
Jean |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 10:07:59 AM
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Sometimes it is that they don't want the poorer quality offspring of their expensive stallions and mares out there for people to see. It is a business and run as such; there is no sentiment. Sad but true.
I would have loved to have a few of the foals but by the time I heard it went on I really didn't need any more and you can't buy them all!
Barbara |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 10:31:11 AM
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Something that must be remembered in respect of the former Soviet bloc countries is that their studs operated in a very poor financial climate (to them, this present 'credit crunch' would have seemed like Christmas!) and that resources were tight even for the best horses. I know at Tersk foals which did not make the grade went into the meat market - which at least helped boost the protein intake of the local population, as well as ensuring that there was enough feed for the remaining horses to live on.
(You can only judge a different culture by the moral standards of that culture itself. Half the world's problems come from foisting alien values on other cultures!)
How many times have people posted on here about unwanted youngstock just left to fend for themselves, or old horses dragging out a miserable existence? Surely, if a horse has no chance of a secure future, or is beginning a terminal decline, then 'culling' is the kindest answer.
If you read the early Crabbet studbooks, you'll find there was little or no sentiment there about 'culling' stock that were past their best.
Personally, I think the present tendency to breed to show winners for beauty regardless of conformation and thereby producing generation after generation of horses predisposed to crippling conditions is far more immoral than humanely putting horses with no hope of a happy life down.
Keren |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 10:46:09 AM
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| The points system of judging maybe highlights this is show horses, it is not unheard of to get a 20 for type or movement and and 15 or 16 for legs. Leg marks on the whole are much lower that all the others, usually by at least 2/3 points where the usual 'range' of marks is 16 -18 with an odd 19 or 15. |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 11:14:49 AM
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I have to agree with both MinHe and patww. If it was my horse I would much rather PTS than have it passed from pillar to post and end up goodness knows where.
Jean |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 12:20:42 PM
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VJC, You were truly blessed and repaid for your kindness and compassion. What a lovely story |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 12:51:55 PM
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The thing is, we are not talking about only horses that are past their best, we are not talking about foals crippled at birth who have no hope of a happy life. We are talking about animals who have as much life and vitality and frankly RIGHT to live, but just aren't as beautiful as hoped for with that breeding, or aren't producing better stock than themselves.
I am not a sentimentalist. I have witnessed and assisted many domestic animals end their days, and feel that for most it was the correct descision for their owners to make. I also appreciate that livestock are exactly that. They are bred for a reason, whether it be for meat, for dairy, for skin, wool whatever (though i personally have no part in that), or in the case of horses for meat, for work and for battle. But to breed an animal for it's aesthetic beauty so that it can skitter round a show ring, and then decide that it doesn't fit in with your breeding program, it isn't fashionable enough, or pretty enough or flashy enough and cull it? Wrong. I appreciate Tersk and Polish studs have different culture, but does it really make it right? For what? To improve the breed? By whose standards? Those that win in the show ring?
I do appreciate i'm not the most knowlegable person about arab breeding, and i have strong values about animal welfare that i don't tend to push on people i think aren't interested. However, this is appalling....
Ros |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 1:25:04 PM
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Such a shame to think about it, but i know of an arab stud that in past has sent horses to meat becuase they had white on them.
In a ideal world the only foals born would be in forever homes but where there is some money to be made people will breed for the money big or small from meat man.
VJC lovely story!!
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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Topic Locked 
, the ones who think it ok to do this to animals
