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Vera
Membership Moderator
 United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 9:27:57 PM
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A friend of mine sent her mare to stud last year, she was successfully covered and scanned in foal by the stud but didn't actually produce a foal.
The stallion owner said that she could return this year to be covered again but the mare owner has been asked to pay the full stud fee again (it was paid in full last year).
Is this usual? She asked me but as I don't breed I thought I'd ask here.
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Hampshire |
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Timbercroft
Gold Member
Wales
936 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 9:33:55 PM
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Hi
She should of asked but sounds a bit wrong to me... I say NO FOAL NO FEE or NO FOAL FREE RETURN (if the foal was born but passed away with in a certain time i would also let the mare come back) Only keep fees are re-charged.(but that's just me!)
All depends on what was agreed? Hope she gets it sorted out.
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www.lma-arabians.co.uk |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 9:41:29 PM
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It depends where you go. I have three times lost stud fees ; had to pay even though my mares came back not in foal twice from the same stud and once when my mare reabsorbed. However, saying that the mare owner can send the mare back this year I would take to mean that she could be recovered for nothing.
It depends on the terms agreed. There was thread a while ago and people said that if the mare was scanned in foal that the stallion had done his duty.
Personally I wouldn't send a mare to stud where there was no live foal guarantee any more unless the stallion was leased and only here for one year and I wanted to use him.
I don't stand my stallions at stud but if I did I would give the mare owner a free covering the next year. Sending a mare to stud can be expensive and I know how disappointng it is to pay all that money have nothing to show for it.
Does your friend have the vet's report stating that the mare was in foal and what day was she scanned? Mares do reabsord sometimes but it is not unheard of for the mare not to have been scanned or the wrong mare scanned if it is a big stud and lots of mares are being scanned. Before you all hold up your hands in horror it happened to a friend of mine!
Barbara |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 9:50:39 PM
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Stud fees have often been the bain of my life Vera. Hence we opted to have our own chap!!
The amount of money I have 'lost' through either the stallion being sold abroad and no return offered, or the stallion gone away or changed hands worked out to be a very expensive hobby indeed.
Your question can only be answered by the original contract the stallion owner offered the mare owner. They all differ even NFFR can not be what you think it stands for!
I do know of one stallion owner who does not have Arabs anymore so I can talk about it. A mare owner used this persons stallion and agreed to pay the stud fee with a contract of NFFR. Her mare absorbed, but was actually tested in-foal by a scan. This went legal and ended up going to court. It was deemed that the stallion had done his job and the mare was in-foal when she left the stud. So the fee had to be paid in full and was not returned nor was a free return to the mare owner offered.
I personally think that is quite unfair. In this day and age when it is very hard to get anyone to use your stallion a free return ought to be offered. But again it is down to the original contract.
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 10:06:59 PM
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I have never liked the scan as being the one and only test for a mare being pregnant and the fee payable. At the scan date - often before she is due back in season - all that can be seen is a cluster of cells. some of these naturally will be faulty and not implant. The ovum can free float in the uterus for weeks absorbing nutrients before implantation occurs, only then -IMO - can the mare truly be said to be pregnant.
Same here, kept own stallion as the 'cheaper' alternative to stud fees, travel, keep, stress, etc, and with better fertility. For the odd person that wanted to use him, I took a bit for keep but not stud fee until they had a live foal, one mare owner sold the mare without telling new owner it was in foal, new owners still honoured the stud fee as they were so pleased with foal and wanted to get it registered.
Breeding is an expensive business, I personally would not go back to a stud where they wanted a second fee having not got a satisfactory result the first time. |
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Theo
Silver Member
England
368 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 10:09:02 PM
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Hi V,
In TB's they have an October 1st terms, it is down to the mare owner to confirm that the mare is still in foal by Oct 1, otherwise the nomination contract still carries and covering fees will be owed. If the funds were not cleared, then no covering certificate will be issued...
Technically a TB stallion carries 40 nominations for each covering season... so, a limited number of mares get booked to the stallion for that season. Hence, your friend may be guaranteed a nomination for this season... but fees will still apply. Unless there is a NFNF or NFFR term attached in the covering agreement... then it should have been claimed before 1st October 2008.
Hope it makes sense?
T  x |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 07:30:49 AM
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| That's very unreasonable. Most studs give a live foal guarantee these days - usually 48 hrs. |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 07:44:07 AM
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I think that your friend need to speak to the stallion owner again, check her paperwork and any adverts the stallion owner has placed.
I offer NFFR 1st Oct and have done for the last 20 yrs.
However on the odd occasion that a mare has reabsorbed or lost a foal after that date i have always given them a free return.
At the end of the day we are all in it to produce foals (i think!)
Nicky
www.romarnicstud.co.uk |
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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 10:32:27 AM
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This sort of thing happens a lot, why dont people learn and why are they afraid of causing offence by getting it in writing, honour and integrity dont abound like they used to.
By rights she should be offered a free return if a foal isnt produced. |
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:31:43 PM
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It depends on the studs contract....
some studs state NFFR (no foal free return) others, Live foal guarantee,
I have just received a contract for a stallion and it states, if the mare does not get in foal in 2009 then I get a 50% reduction on the following breeding season,
You have to read your contract and only go ahead if you are happy with the terms.
If the stud has a contract and you sign it, you have agreed to their terms,
I personally feel if you have paid you stud fee you are entitled to expect a live foal,
Contracts for AI will vary a lot compared to natural breedings.
Lx |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:38:37 PM
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I'm amazed at the number of times queries arise on this subject. There are no rules set in stone. Each stallion owner can dictate their own 'terms' and the mare owner doesn't have to use the stallion if they don't like the conditions. There are no doubt stallion owners who will wriggle out of returns if they can and try various other 'not very ethical proceedures' but it isn't always the stallion owners fault.
We always had a printed form stating the 'conditions and terms' quite clearly but hardly ever did the mare owners take time to read them before signing. Although we always offered a NFFR deal we were advised by the AHS Solicitor (which post no longer exsists) that if the mare was tested pregnant the stallion had done his job and the fee was legally payable with a free return if the mare didn't actually produce a foal ,alive or dead. Of course we would always have given a free return to the disappointed owner of a dead foal but luckily this situation never arose.
A problem only arises if the details are not checked out thoroughly before a commitment is made.
Jean |
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Edited by - weirton on 14 Apr 2009 12:59:48 PM |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:40:48 PM
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Sorry Linda I seem to have duplicated what you have said.
Jean |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:58:22 PM
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I'll print this off and give it to her.
Thanks for your opinions everybody. |
Hampshire |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 1:25:05 PM
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We also offer a `straight` covering (one off) at a reduced fee....if the mare is proved `not in foal` then we will cover again provided the mare owner, pays the additional fee to make up to the standard NFFR covering fee.
This has proved successful for mare owners who know their mare is easily got pregnant.
However, what has annoyed us in the past....a Mare proves pregnant, expected foaling date is advised..The mare owner then just leaves the mare out in a field (at night)unsupervised when the birthing is imminent, then finds a dead foal suffocated in the birthing caul the next day. Owner then phones to say she is returning the Mare and insisting on a "free covering" In this instance we were reluctant to re-cover the mare again. IMO the Mare Owner had acted in an irresponsible way and neglected her mare by not being present at the birth, to observe and assist/call the Vet...the foal would have most likely survived, had she been in attendance.
We had done our job correctly, our stallion had done his job well, this lady had neglected her duty of care for her pregnant mare....therefore, should not be breeding a foal!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 1:57:48 PM
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I'm sure we would have been of the same opinion as you Babs, had this ever happened to us.
Jean |
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Sirius
Bronze Member
England
102 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 2:12:22 PM
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| As the recession makes people think twice about breeding, the rarer lines must be at risk and the 100% Crabbet horse looks more and more likely to become an interesting piece of history. If we wait until better times, a lot of the older horses will simply not be in breeding condition any more. We have therefore extended NFFR to 48 hour live foal, and would encourage other stallion owners to do the same. |
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Oxara Arabians
Bronze Member
Denmark
104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 08:42:36 AM
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We always offer live foal guarantee when we cover a mare.
This also if the mare is scanned in foal and doesnt have a foal.
With these high breeding fees on arabian stallions, this is a service a think all breeders should have.
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Kali
Bronze Member
England
73 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 2:05:41 PM
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What would you do if your chosen stallion's semen, on each of 3 occasions of sending from Europe, was less than 20% motility and therefore the mare did not get in foal?
The stallion was leased at the time but the contract stated the owner would honour the covering. The owner took him home from the lessee mid season, he was sold a couple of weeks later to a country which was out of reach to me or my mare. Frozen semen was then collected (part of the sale agreement)but my mare was too old for frozen to be likely to be successful, I was also asked for more money if I wanted the semen (as the new owner had had to pay for this)- needless to say I did not think this was appropriate. Also the semen was not great on thawing but not as bad as the chilled I received.
The whole point was to breed a foal for me from my own mare, and to use this semen I would have to lease a mare (at more expense).
No-one thinks they should refund the stud fee (in addition I paid a large amount in veterinary fees for setting my mare up on each occasion, and for semen collection and transport costs), and I am not allowed to sell the breeding - I would only have sold to someone local to the stallion in the circumstances. At the time, the lessee offered me frozen semen to his own stallion but, although lovely, it was not the stallion I wanted and did not have the famous progeny that the original one had sired. This stallion was also sold and so cannot now be offered even if I leased a mare.
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Alison |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 3:46:22 PM
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I had a similar situation but with frozen semen from the USA, it thawed out at about 10 % so was useless. The owners were excellent and allowed me to sell my breedings. Still out of pocket but a valuable lesson learnt.
Last year I had a batch of chilled semen which was pants, definately no more than 20% but amazingly my 19 yo mare got in foal - a gift from the gods me thinks.
Linda will probably advise you better here but AI/semen contracts very rarely are mare owner friendly. In their defence they offered you an alternative ( leasee) and offered you frozen semen from the original stallion too, which, although not ideal for you they 'covered their tracks'. Not sure why they asked for more money though, that was unreasonable ! |
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NatH
Platinum Member
England
2695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 4:57:33 PM
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I'm no expert here but I think its 'OK' for the stallion owners to make their own terms.
I think it is down to 'us' who use the stallion to read the contract before we agree to it & also down to those who make the contract to stick to their terms.
Just my opinion
I do feel terribly sorry for people, who have been 'let down'. Breeding a foal should be such an exciting time. Enough can go wrong without people upsetting each other. |
Natalie
Chapel Lane Arabians
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Edited by - NatH on 17 Apr 2009 11:33:57 AM |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 9:16:55 PM
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It sounds like the stud are trying to be reasonable here offering frozen semen,
I have spent thousands trying to get mares in foal via AI,
It can be a costly game,
Lx
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Edited by - linda on 16 Apr 2009 9:25:56 PM |
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Kali
Bronze Member
England
73 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 10:42:29 PM
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Unfortunately the frozen semen is pretty low motility and my vet has advised me not to use it, and definitely not on my own mare.
In view of the amount of money already spent I really think it's unreasonable to be expected to pay more. It was not my idea that the stallion be sold and travel out of reach, in fact I was going to send my mare over to the stallion but he was sold almost immediately after this was suggested and went within a couple of weeks.
I should add that the semen is apparently good on collection but does not appear to travel the distance that I needed. |
Alison |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 10:23:21 AM
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Alison been there and got the t shirt
We tried for three years to get Derjava in foal with the chilled semen deteriorating with each shipment, vet said it was not worth sending. Spent not only are large (to me anyway) stud fee but probably several thousands in vets fees.
In the end we used a stallion available in the UK by natural covering and got filly so good news there.
Stallion in question has now moved on and we are now trying to negotiate what will happen and how long we are able to hold over the breeding as the mare is 24 now and her daughter just a year.
All very complicated but certainly a lesson learn't albeit a rather expensive one. It has certainly made me wary of using a leased stallion. Rightly or wrongly in my opinion there should be some kind of guarantee for mare owners set out in any contract as to what will happen if the stallion is sold of the lease ceases and no suitable alternative is available. It is about time stallion owners realised that their reputations are damaged by these unfriendly contracts thus depriving them of repeat business for the future. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 10:40:39 AM
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Isn't there a standard for frozen semen? When I had collections taken from my boy, we were advised a certain number would be fine for using at stud and a certain number of straws had lower motility and should only be used for my own use. Seeing as the "stud" straws were going into storage as part of the CBS semen storage scheme I was glad for the information.
As a mare owner, I would always ask for a semen assessment if I was going to use AI - the collection centre usually provides full details and I would want to see a copy before using.
I hasten to add, that I only found out about this seeing as I had sent a boy away. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had a clue to ask. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 10:45:26 AM
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These stories of poor semen quality are no making me re-think an idea I had which was to geld my SE colt after we saw a foal or two, having got a store of his semen collected first for potential use. This was to allow him to be a normal horse for the rest of his days, he is unbelievably sweet natured and has the life of riley out 24/7 with a field shelter and a mare for company. I am not of an age where keeping him for life is an option, and to rehome a teenage stallion in the future is not desirable.
Can anyone assure me that semen is usually of better quaity? Is it to do with who collects and freezes it? |
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