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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 09:23:13 AM
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If one was drawing up a charter of minimum care for stallions ,what would be included? |
    
blue moon |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:14:29 PM
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Quote; "Great topic, very interesting since in Holland a new law is coming through, that no horse should be kept in all day or kept ALONE, that includes stallions."
This is already the law in the UK, the Animal Welfare Act '5 Freedoms'
clause applies to all species, horses included.
Such a shame it's not easily enforced/policed 
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 1:05:27 PM
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charter for minimum care for stallions (& all horses),
IMO should include:
1. Food
2. Water
3. Veterinary treatment & farriery care when required.
4. shelter & turnout.
Anyone else add to this list?
Lisa |
     
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 1:20:30 PM
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Hi Alistair,
every year we visit this topic but not enough changes... ....stallions have long held a special place in my heart as you know, and it disgusts me that some studs can pay lip sevice to caring for their breeding stock while charmng their potential clients and then turn a blind eye to the cruelty that they are themselves perpetrating. Normal, everyday owners may sometimes bite off more than they can chew with a young colt but at least the majority of those people ask advise or have the colt eventually gelded...it is when you see lines of stables with their top doors (if they have doors) shut or stallions getting a reputation as being " impossible to handle" that you know there is trouble. All too sad....And if we had an Inspectorate, how brave could that person be????
suyen. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 1:31:44 PM
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Hear hear Suyen!
Anyway, there's no compulsory national register for stallions so how would an inspector know where they were??
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Roseanne |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 1:42:32 PM
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What about duration of turnout?
How can it be maintained when every case is different .
What makes no commercial sense is the devaluing of the stallion by incorrect care .
It is well known that loss of fertility can result from lack of exercise and freedom
What I would like is a consensus on the minimum standards of care.
How difficult is it really to fence a play area for a stallion so he can be out all day without trouble to himself and others? |
blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 1:51:58 PM
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The Breed Societies must be well aware of the location of their registered stallions?? Why cannot individual Breed Societies employ an Inspector, who would be responsible to ensure stallion care meets a minimal requirement of freedom each day. i.e.have proof by way of a properly fenced `stallion paddock` for regular exercise
If this basic requirement is not met, then an inspector should have the power to call for the stallion to be gelded. Drastic.......but necessary to stem the abuse of both the indiscriminate uncaring breeders and the ignorant, who deem it the right way of management, to imprison a stallion 24/7, never being allowed access to the freedom of a paddock |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 9:38:08 PM
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Fencing a play area is a difficult question Alistair.
A stallion that knows a mare is waiting is a very difficult creature to contain if he is not used to his containment. You can't always be home all the time to check what's going on and it is a risk if you don't have a serious stallion paddock, with post and rail with electric reinforcement as tape or wire on stand-offs so they know not to try to break out.
When they are established and secure in their routine you can trust them, and where I would be happy to leave our stallion separated from the geldings by a single e-tape if I went off to work, I wouldn't want to leave him too close to a mare without being sure of his separation. He's a stallion after all and his job is to reach mares! |
Roseanne |
Edited by - Roseanne on 07 Apr 2009 9:39:11 PM |
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Big Ron
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 11:14:04 PM
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In my opinion, the problem exists partly because there are too many colts and stallions kept entire in the Arab horse community. Even once treasured, fashionable stallions, can become unfashionable and in some cases, end up being demoted to a stable at the back of the yard and pretty much forgotten, or worst still being sold on to less caring owners to make room for the latest fashion.
You don't find droves of thoroughbreds, warmbloods, irish draughts, etc. being kept entire, so why Arabs.... it is probably party due to their love and trust of human beings, but I think a great deal of the problem lies in the 'culture' within the Arab horse owning community.
In my own experience Arab geldings are viewed as second class citizens, particularly in the showing world. Their classes are not always heavily promoted, or supported, their classes are often demoted from the main ring, to ring B status and often they are left to the end of the day, and all ages lumped in together.
WE need to change this, and promote the status of geldings, as not only excellent companions, but also as top performers. In the eventing and competition world, geldings are often the preferred choice as they’re easier to manage and are more able to concentrate on the job in hand.
The culture within the arab horse community that colts and stallions are some how superior, leads to too many colts being kept entire which should not be, but they would make extremely good geldings.
Colts and stallions should be the 'creme de la creme' and ambassadors for the arab breed and everything else should be cut, so that they have a chance of finding better homes with a more natural equine lifestyle as show, or competition geldings. This would help alleviate the situation with some colts and stallions being shut away for most of their lives and it would also reduce the number of horses being bred (sometimes accidentally), for which there aren't enough good homes in the UK.
Please, let's promote the status of geldings, and get some of those colts cut, so they can live more enjoyable lives.
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 08:25:34 AM
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could not agree more about the keeping of too many colts, and other comments about stallions relegated to a life in the shadows of the latest fashion with hardly any 'job' to do and not ridden.
if you value those 'unrepeatable' bloodlines, get his semen colleted and geld him, let him be out with companions and out ridden seeing the world.
I was allowed to have my own SE colt as his breeder knew he had a 24/7 turnout regime planned with a companion mare (or two), and that he would be sold on as a ridden gelding if and I cant keep him. he has the sweetest temperament, helped I am sure by being treated as a 'real' horse, and girls putting him in his palce! |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 11:59:51 AM
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Good point Roseanne .
So
The first item on minimum care of stallions
Secure safe turnout area. |
blue moon |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 12:44:07 PM
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Of course having a safe secure turnout area is no guarantee that the stallion will actually be turned out!!!
Barbara |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 5:38:43 PM
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Hi Big Ron, and welcome 
We're back to the old chestnut about the differences between ridden and in-hand horses. You're right that there are few geldings shown IN HAND, but in the ridden world, the classes are jammy packed! Statistically it's much harder to get a gelding to HOYS than a mare or stallion.
I think the basic truth that lots of us believe here on AL is that Arabs are first and foremost horses, they can do everything other horses do, they are more intelligent generally than other horses (and more beautiful in my opinion) and they should be used for something in addition to in-hand showing and breeding.
The minute you suggest that the typical Arab is one that is stabled 24/7, can't go out in the rain or cold, should be rugged up to its ears most of the year, not ridden but shown in hand in a hypo state, you've become brainwashed into a dangerous area that is slowly destroying the reputation of the most exclusive breed on the globe. |
Roseanne |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 7:19:12 PM
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| Originally posted by Big Ron
In my opinion, the problem exists partly because there are too many colts and stallions kept entire in the Arab horse community.
While I agree with most of your points, I don't think it's just an Arab community problem - there are guilty parties in all areas. Possibly it does happen less with TBs and warmbloods, because most *breeders* of those beasts are producing for performance, where a gelding is at an advantage. However, one comes across plenty of instances of pony stallions kept in bad circumstances, and if we all had a fiver for every uncut coloured cob around, I'm sure we could all forget the lottery
As someone forced to keep stallions at livery, in my experience, it's the *mindset* of non-Arab/PRE owners, who have been brainwashed into thinking stallion = psycho rapist that needs to be changed. Yes, you have to be sensible when creating turnout for stallions, but EVERY time we've had a problem, it's always been someone else's gelding that has started the aggression!
Keren |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2009 : 12:37:14 PM
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This is a subject close to my heart having kept stallions for over 30 years. I have just been on a trip with Lisa looking for a potential husband for one of my mares, I can honestly say that every stallion we met was happy and relaxed and had access to turnout, however we were not looking at in hand show stallions, but horses who were either being ridden or less than fashionable in the present showing scene.
I couldn't agree more Roseanne and I equally do not want to go back to the in hand/ridden debate, but there is no doubt that horses who have access to a more normal life are not just happier, but a lot easier to work with.
Our stallions are a little unusual in that they are turned out together all day, they have a few blemishes where playing has got a little exhuberant, but we think its a small price to pay for such easy, relaxed horses. They do come in at night as there are some rather alluring Section A mares in the next field !
I did think and please put me right on this that under the animal welfare act horses had to be able to express natural behaviour which of course includes turn out.
Mandy
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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linziemberton
New Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2009 : 12:52:42 PM
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Rosie i have one more were possible
1. Food
2. Water
3. Veterinary treatment & farriery care when required.
4. shelter & turnout
5. companion
i know with some stallions this would not be possible, however others can be fine with geldings or even mares already in foal, i have seen one stallion been 2nd in line to a in foal mare he shared his paddoc with. x |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2009 : 5:43:14 PM
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For those that haven't read them, these are the RSPCA '5 Freedoms, enforcable (or often not!) under the Animal Welfare Act.
Freedom from hunger and thirst
# by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.
Freedom from discomfort
# by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.
Freedom from pain, injury or disease
# by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.
Freedom to express normal behaviour
# by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.
Freedom from fear and distress
# by ensuring conditions and care which avoid mental suffering. |
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2009 : 09:46:39 AM
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The last two freedoms mentioned are not very well adhered to . |
blue moon |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2009 : 10:32:32 AM
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Ella's point that the law is often unenforceable is a good one .
What if there were a standing committee on this subject to establish rules for Arab owners.
maybe the Regions have one person on welfare who could address it . |
blue moon |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2009 : 12:07:23 PM
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Strikes me that the animals under the RSPCA's five freedoms are entitled to more rights than most children.
However.
One thing does puzzle me about the whole stallion bit... in Muslim countries it is unusual to geld male horses. Whenever I have been to Egypt stallions seem to be worked and used alongside mares and no-one seems a penny the worse for it. Stallions are handled, ridden, worked and kept without any special conditions and I never saw a sign of any 'psycho-rapists'. So why do some people in the UK keep insisting that stallions need special conditions (or have to be locked up 24/7 without a sniff of another horse)? Can anyone clarify this for me?!
Also, when I was a teen, the local riding school had a cob stallion who was kept with all the other horses and went on lessons and hacks with everyone else (including with complete beginners on board), no special treatment at all - and he was also used as a stud. And someone I know now who owns a riding school/livery yard keeps her stud stallion in the same block as the other horses and he is handled the same way. |
 Said the little eohippus, "I´m going to be a HORSE"  |
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Emagetic
Bronze Member
England
126 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2009 : 2:52:42 PM
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Grey girl I completely agree with you. Having owned stallions on and off for the past 15 plus years (first one was a section A but he still counts) we have found it is other peoples perception of stallions that can be negative, thinking they are dangerous just because they have their bits intact. Each horse is an individual and should be treated as such. How many hormonal mares have people come across or nutty geldings that don't seem to be quite right?
I think owners have a responsibility to their boys to make their life as integrated and normal as possible and yes for me that includes being stabled next to mares, colts, geldings and other stallions and allowing them to touch noses (each horse assessed individually as sometimes this can wind some horses up). In my experience it is the stallions that have not been treated as horses that are problematic and kick off when they see another horse as they are not used to it. Our welsh stallion is best friends with my arab gelding. They clean each other over the fence and I would never dream of altering their access to contact just because he's a stallion.
I disagree that geldings are treated inferior to mares, stallions and colts. Look at the BACs show where special in hand classes are held purely for geldings, also highest placed gelding rosettes in AHS affiliated classes at other shows promote geldings. I think the society has done a lot to address this issue.
Some times I feel that it is stallion owners that are treated as inferior because at some indoor shows at the start of the season stallions are banned or have to wear a stallion pack. This is probably as a result of an inexperienced handler allowing their horse to cause a mischief and so an organiser has to react to this. Here we go again. In order to change peoples' perceptions of stallions we need to change what they see of them either when at a show or just in everyday life around the yard. I find stallions intelligent, forward going, switched on and beautiful. The bond between a stallion and owner can be so unique. Like any horse they can show you the best of them or in hostile environments the worst.
Turn out is always problematic when on a livery yard as most people do not want their horse grazing in a field next to a stallion. By being exposed to stallions that are respectful and are treated respectfully peoples' views may change - slowly, very slowly. That's what I hope for.
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 09:13:28 AM
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Tha point is -
do we think this is a welfare issue or not? |
blue moon |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 09:47:27 AM
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For the stallions shut in 24/7 yes it is a welfare problem, of course it is. But how do you police this?
Even with the help of the RSPCA who have maybe one or two Equine officers looking after the whole of the South West, how can they stretch to checking yards? and what if they came to check me at 2pm when my chap has been out in his paddock since 8am and if it is too hot, too cold or we have three drips of rain falling around 2pm he will shout to come in
I could wrongly be accused of keeping my stallion in his stable!!
You would have to depend on people complaining to the Authorities and how many of these complaints could be mischievous 'revenge' complaints wasting everyone's time.
It needs the profile of the gelding to be raised even further. We need to realise that as a gelding an Arab will in his life probably achieve more under saddle in many different disciplines and promote our breed to the much wider public.
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