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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 12:34:36 PM
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Under Defra rules one must keep chickens in a way where they are free to range and be normal.
No such law exists for Stallions who spend their lives shut up in their stall with little chance of being normal
I think there should be a minimum level of care and wellbeing for Stallions in particular.
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blue moon |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 12:57:27 PM
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Not so here at Sunray Alistair.....we have two homebred Anglo stallions....each has their own paddock....adjoining the Mare paddocks
They live out biggest part of the year, warm rugs and well fed during the Winter months......enjoy rolling in the mud...and calling to all the horses that ride by as both their paddocks back onto a narrow lane which is popular with local riders. Their paddocks are at opposite ends of our stud, so no stress, worrying about another stallion who might be trying to steal their ladies!!
The old boy is now 24years and still looks amazing and has rarely seen a vet, all his life. The young lad is eleven years and dont think he has ever seen the vet due to illness.
Agree with you wholly regarding stallions who have no freedom, spending most of their life shut up and segregated from other horses
........very unnatural and stressful, not a happy life for some entires 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 04 Apr 2009 12:58:39 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:06:40 PM
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Just got back from a fab ride and waiting for Mand (tomos) we are going on a stallion viewing trip .
So was browsing A/L and saw your post Alistair...very good point!
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lisa |
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jillandlomond
Platinum Member
Scotland
3586 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:11:41 PM
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I think there should be a law to protect the welfare of ALL horses who have to endure being locked up in their stables for hours on end It must be soul destroying for the poor creatures having to stand there for hours on end....I know I get bored and irritable standing waiting in a stable even for a short length of time eg., waiting for farrier or vet. Can only imagine how soul destroying it must be for these intelligent creatures!! |
    
Borders, Scotland |
Edited by - jillandlomond on 05 Apr 2009 9:55:13 PM |
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Nedds71
Gold Member
Wales
679 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:12:24 PM
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| My boy goes out every day for as long as he wants to, sometimes a few hours sometimes all day!!! Always has mare's in next paddock! He's a horse 1st stally second!!! |
BJ
www.bmjarabians.co.uk
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:21:25 PM
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Our stallion is out 24/7 and a very happy boy! He is able to nuzzle and mutually groom the geldings who are the other side of his own post and rail paddock. And when I'm home, he's out in the wider area so he's separated from the geldings by two strands of e-tape and they socialise a lot. They're a really happy bunch of lads together and never a hint of trouble. (Though I accept if there were mares nearer there could be).
I have never forgotten being told at an Arab dinner about a stallion being kept locally to that area, in a stable, with the top door closed, 24/7 because it would be too much to let it out. Because it had food and bedding etc, it wasn't an RSPCA case and there are no rules against it so no one could do anything about it except express their rage to each other. It doesn't bear thinking about. |
Roseanne |
Edited by - Roseanne on 04 Apr 2009 1:24:18 PM |
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alison
Platinum Member
Wales
1810 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:30:54 PM
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Couldn't agree more, if you don't have the right facilities to keep an entire then don't keep one. I went to view a beautiful grey stallion about four years ago, his sire was Borneo. He was being kept in a stable on an allotment in the South Wales Valleys. The young lad that had him seemed nice enough but could hardly handle him. He had cuts on his knees where he had fallen over, I soon found out how that had happened as when the young lad lead him out into the small space in front of the stable - which was covered with lots of small stones, the horse went ballistic trying to run and nearly ended up on his knees again. I nearly bought him out of pity as he was such a nice looking boy 'grey with darker mane and very short coupled' but decided he would just be to much to cope with, I often wonder what happened to him. I hope he found a good home. That was a classic case of a lovey horse landing up in the wrong place, if he had been gelded he may have stood a better chance.
Ali |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 3:46:08 PM
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sadly Ali that is very common, people see lovely young colts find they are cheap to buy, see themselves being the owner of a famous stallionone day and hey! before you know it, they cant cope , so the poor animal is kept in through fear of injury, but then that is counter productive as the horse just becomes more and more frustrated with being in.
one of the fundimental requirements for herd animals is to be with their own kind, they ask very little in life, yet so many are denied this basic need. my heart cries for them. and as Alistair says there are places where stallions NEVER get to lead a normal life, go and look at them , their eyes become dead after a while but the owners dont see it ! |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 5:02:22 PM
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| I was an amateur stallion owner many many years ago, I bought a yeariling TB colt, he went out everday all day, and I groomed him twice a day and picked his feet out twice a day and walked him out and treated him like any other horse and my farrier who had always done him, suddenly cottoned on to him being entire and told me to put a 6 foot gap between him and the mares, which I did, but, my ignorance (16 years old) had led me to treat him as a horse and not a stallion and because of that he was a dream to handle, I was always firm with him when he got spirited, but I would with a young filly too, so sometimes if you instill into someone that a stallion is "dangerous", that in itself can cause problems...... my stallion is easier than the mares and lives life as a normal horse, with the mares field six feet from his, and stabled right next door to them and he is fat healthy and happy and a toddler could lead him in and has, my grand daughter, she has even laid doen in his stable with him, her head on his neck. Like you say there should be a law of cruelty against anyone who shuts their horse up 24/7, even if they do have food and water, its still imprisonment |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 6:05:26 PM
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It is not just with stallions, that this sad state of imprisonment happens!!
My friend`s Anglo gelding was loaned short term to a lady who worked with dressage horses and she stabled William on the dressage yard.
Several months later, I accompanied my friend to see how her horse was getting on. What we saw, really upset us. Very smart yard, beautiful stables..........but horror of horrors...on a fine sunny day
all top doors closed!!! Each top door had a small grill, approx 6" square..through which the horses could peep!!
William was also shut up in the same manner. Apparently these poor dressage horses only came out of their boxes, to be ridden in an indoor school for probably an hour a day.....before returning to their prison cells. They were rarely allowed out to graze!!
When we opened William`s door, we could have cried. Yes, his coat was gleaming and he was in excellent condition.....but those once sparkling eyes and the alert expression had been replaced with a very sad...."suppose I will just have to put up with it, if this is my life now"
We came away, very saddened that horses were kept in such "soul destroying" imprisonment. It goes without saying William was quickly removed and once again given the freedom of paddocks and doctor greengrass and he quickly returned to his usual jolly self.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 04 Apr 2009 6:08:37 PM |
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trinity
Gold Member
Scotland
1126 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 8:24:41 PM
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| Here, here Alistair. Couldn't agree more. Our boy gets out with his mares and is stabled in amongst all the other horses. He gets groomed alongside everyone else and leads the same life as all our other guys. Our two other colts (not arabs) are out together with 2 other geldings and they are being brought up in exactly the same way. We have a part share in another stallion who spent the first 4 years of his life being beaten in to submission and was never allowed out with other horses. It has taken a year to get him to the point that he can go out with another colt and be stabled in amongst all the other horses. He is now a big, laid back chap who has finally learnt to trust and chill. |
Beck |
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 9:09:13 PM
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| Such a shame but great to see and hear of so many stallions who do lead a normal life. It must make such a different to their temperament. Shame people take on animals they don't understand. |
      
Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 10:00:40 PM
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Agree with EVERYTHING you say Alistair, & also agree with what Jillandlomond has said about ALL horses.
I have seen some terrible sights in the past & this year, for the 1st time ever, reported a case to the animal welfare who were absolutely brilliant & looked into the case within days. (don't worry admin I won't name names on a public forum).
It pains me to see animals standing in their own sh**, NO food, obviously not fed much as emaciated, etc.
A friend of mine saved a black Arab stallion that was locked in a shed in a pub car-park 24/7!!!
She bought him & had to geld him, as he was so psychologically damaged. He now has a 'normal' life as a riding horse.
If you can't look after an animal then I say don't get one!!
Will get off my high horse now.
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Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 10:29:42 PM
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I agree totally with you all, it's really disgusting how some stallions are kept. Mine lives with my gelding and at the moment they are out 24/7. When I ride out sometimes he comes with us. I wouldn't dream of treating him any different, although I am aware of his instincts.My stallion loves to run(fast!) and play.Although he has a huge field and company he can become very bored and needs mental stimulation.A bit like a child, he's a quick learner.
All stable vices are the product of stressed horses with not enough turn out and who are not able to socialise properly.
I wish the law stated that all horses should have turnout and socialising.
My feelings are the same for any caged animal.
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applause
Bronze Member
England
134 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 07:47:09 AM
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I had my stallion cut at the end of last year at 6yrs he was a lovely boy my 10 yr old daughter could handle him but he couldn't cope with being a stallion. He was hatrack like from pacing from spring onwards we tried everything other than keeping him 24/7 in a box but i couldn't have done that to him horss need to be horses!
He is gelded now and is fat and happy with no hormones telling him any different on the other hand our spotted and shetland stallions are happy to live in their fields with horses next to them so think of your stallio if the only way it can cope is to be kept in a box 24/7 is he happy? |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 09:04:14 AM
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I wish it was the case that chickens must be kept in a way where they are able to free range, but sadly,battery cages are still legal here and in the EU ( and of course the rest of the world) Even the long awaited legislation to ban battery cages, due to come into force soon, looks like it will be hi jacked and made uselss with the introduction of so-called "enriched cage systems" which will be legal---yeh great a tiny prison, crammed full of birds, with a perch in it. It is a long hard fight to get any animal welfare legislation passed, and then it falls at the last fence like this.
The suffering of these birds is huge, and so is the suffering of stallions kept locked in prisons. It isn't just stallions---there are thousands of horses in the racing industry, the show world and elswhere, who never get turnout. I really believe this should be illegal. It won't be any time soon, so all that we in the horse world can do is show our dissapproval by boycotting everything to do with any owner, breeder or producer who keeps their horses like this. And report cases we have direct experience of to a suitable welfare organisation---they won't be able to prosecute because there is no legislation there, but repeated visits to advise how horses should be kept might just have an effect. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 09:15:05 AM
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Some years ago, a close friend pleaded with us to take his 9yr old jet black Riding pony stallion. He had not had the stallion long and had rescued him from a 24/7 stabled regime. Apparently, not only was this poor stallion stabled 24/7, he had also been tied up, to stop him box walking 
Due to his change in circumstances, our friend could no longer accommodate this stallion, we had to help him out so he gave Merlin to us. We promised never to sell him on.
WOW....this little stallion could box walk for England!! So, out he went into a paddock and for months, he ran the fence, making a deep track. Finally, he settled, much to our relief, and we were delighted he could now begin to lead a more normal life.
Sadly, Spring arrived.....and horrors, all the old problems repeated.
Phoned up our friend and advised the best thing that could happen to this pony, was to geld him, and for him to take back Merlin. He was very concerned of the possible risk of gelding a ten year old stallion and we assured him there should not be a problem.
The deed was done, with an almost overnight change, in Merlin`s stress levels. The Pony was then backed and ridden by his owner`s small daughter, taken to a local show, where he was spotted by a lady looking for a top class pony for a client. A deal was done, and the rest was history!!! At his first Show with new owner, a Qualifier for BSPS Championships, he won, and qualified......and the rest is history!!
At BSPS Championships 2002, (only his second ridden outing) he claimed the Packard Bell Challenge Championship and went on to claim the Overall Supreme Ridden Show Pony Reserve Championship, getting a good `write up` in H & H mag!! Rowanoak Sorcerer (Merlin)
now continues his life as a very happy child's Riding Pony
Merlin at Sunray, shortly before he was gelded aged 10yrs.
Merlin at BSPS 2002 Championships, just a few months after castration
Proof indeed that if your stallion cant cope with being entire, make the right decision and let him have the chance of a happy normal life!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 05 Apr 2009 09:34:39 AM |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 09:56:49 AM
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What a lovely story, BabsR, and such a happy ending for Merlin.
My boys all have their own fields and go out in the mornings and come in at night. They each have about 3 acres and and all are happy boys. Some horses do seem to cope with being in most of the time; others don't.
However, keeping horses in 24/7, especially with the top door shut, is cruel. My stallion had to be in for 3 months when he broke his jaw and he coped very well. He had unlimited hay plus a haynet outside his stable door so that he could eat his hay while looking out and calling to the other horses he could see in the field. He didn't develop any vices (unless you call picking me up by the back of my anorak while I was bent down mucking out a vice!) and never tried to push out of the stable when I opened the door. He was used to being stabled at night and as I bred him he was settled here so I guess that helped. When he eventually went out again he didn't go mental, just had a quick canter round and a shout and then settled down to graze.
Just as big a concern for me is foals who don't get out to run and stretch their legs and expand their lungs, I am sure it will cause long term problems later in life.
Barbara |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 7:46:25 PM
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It is cruel,mentally.
I wonder why people do it. |
blue moon |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 8:59:53 PM
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Lack of thought, Alistair. I doubt they even realise they are being cruel. They just don't think what being caged all the time does to the horse. Having said that, some horses cope very well with limited turnout so long as they get out for a couple of hours a day. I know some of mine are happier in when the weather is bad. I indulge them when there is freezing rain or it is snowing a blizzard but apart from that they go out during the day, like it or not, winter and summer!!!!
I bought a colt several years ago who was kept in 24/7 apart from a walk every day as there was no turnout for him. He was so quiet and nice in his stable; I was amazed. What I didn't realise was that he had lost the will to live! When I got him here he was turned out on 18 acres and he just blew his mind; he was a nightmare for ages but eventually calmed down once he realised that he came in at night and went out every day. We even had to resort to a friend rounding him up with his 4x4 on a couple of occasions to get him in!
Like people, horses are individuals and have their likes and dislikes but no horse should be kept "caged". Even when they cope mentally it must be very bad for them physically, they need to get some exercise every day.
Barbara |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 08:37:03 AM
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Great topic, very interesting since in Holland a new law is coming through, that no horse should be kept in all day or kept ALONE, that includes stallions. How good it is to keep your stallions in a field next to mares or other stallions, HE CAN NOT DO WHAT HE WOULD DO IF HE HAD A FRIEND, GROOMING TOGETHER.
Our teacher at my horse behaviour study, her name is Machteld van Dierendonck, she is quite famous, says that in fact horses should always be kept at least with one friend. The best situation for a stallion would be to run with his girlie's.
So I hope I do not offend anybody, I think keeping them in a field is thousand times better then 24/7 indoors.
But this is the reason we gelded our boy years ago, because I did not want to have a foal every year, and have to sell it to an uncertain future. Because I can not keep them all.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 09:15:22 AM
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You only have to visit them to see there are no turnout or grazing facilities for stallions .
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blue moon |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 09:17:49 AM
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You only have to visit them to see there are no turnout or grazing facilities for stallions .
Took a while for the penny to drop at the livery I first used so I studied the subject .
The welfare act does not cover the caging of horses because on inspection they have water food and a shiny coat.
Barbara's point is right ,they go loopy when trated as normal .
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blue moon |
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jasjmm
Gold Member
625 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 12:37:09 PM
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| My chickens and stallion are free range! :) |
    
Bristol |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 7:17:49 PM
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My 3 have turnout next to each other - one is out 27 all year round, because he prefers it: the other two are a bit more wussy and like to be in at night in the winter, but are out 24/7 May-November. They are better behaved than most geldings, and in fact, most people don't realise they are stallions!
The British somehow lost the knack of dealing with stallions in the 20th century: ours have always been treated as horses, not rapists and so we don't have any more trouble than the sort of 'blokey behaviour' you expect from any male - 2 or 4 legged 
Keren |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 10:53:00 PM
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another vote for uot 24/7. Our first as a two year old felt the cold and would go indoors, but as he got older and toughened up he lived out all year, either with his mares, a gelding or for a couple of years with his ungelded son.
The 3 year old SE here now was allowed to come BECAUSE he would have year round turnout! His breeder did not have the facilities to do this, and wanted this very sweet boy to enjoy life. |
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