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Pasha
Platinum Member
 England
3622 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 3:46:22 PM
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Not too much to report BUT some 'kind of positive' news so thought you might like to know 
Pasha is now on Soaked Hay and Safe & Sound only. I took him off the Equistro Flexadin and he's been off it a week whilst waiting for the new joint supplement from metabolic horse to arrive (I also ordered the magnesium and chromium as advised).
Since coming off Equistro Flexadin he's been really stiff and back to hobbling  ... we've been walking him out for a nibble of grass and he seems to walk out of it fairly quickly but we are VERY WORRIED!!!
I spoke to the vet this morning after emailing him full details of his new diet and all the metabolic horse stuff - I also sent him Pasha's diary that I've kept with a day by day account of what's happened since November 14th!
The vet says he's happy with his new diet but maintains that there wasn't much wrong with the old one! He doesn't support the claims regarding magnesium and chromium - he is yet to see any real scientific benefit from using these BUT they won't do him any harm!
He also doesn't agree that Glucosamine is in any way hindering Pasha's progress or is in anyway the cause of his laminitis/cushings!
He is very concerned about the stiffness and has told me that if Pasha does not improve with the new supplement, I am to put him back on Equistro Flexadin (very annoyed as just given it away and it's very expensive!!)
What he did say is that Pasha's problem is his Insulin Resistance (his ACHT levels are very low) SO he is going to come out at 7am one morning w/b 23rd to see how he is when he first gets out of bed....
If it's as he thinks and he is in fact more stiff than lame, he can start to go out in the sick paddock  (we are very lucky that we have a very small flat paddock especially set aside for the sick and injured and the sheep are next door so he would have friends)!
he is also going to re-do the bloods, including the ACHT. If the Insulin Resistance is still the problem and not under control he said that is because Pergolide 'indirectly' treats the IR through the control of the dopamine (sorry if I don't get this 100% correct). This normally works in cushings cases, but it may be that we have to be more 'direct' with Pasha, and if that is the case he will go onto Metaphormine (sp)?
I know this isn't really any sort of good news BUT the prospect of my little boy getting to go out for a whole day is just soo wonderful I just had to share!! I am 100% convinced he will rapidly get better if he can go out as when we've taken him for a little walk around the school he comes in soo much better!
Thanks for reading... Sarah x
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 4:08:09 PM
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Can i just ask has your vet said he can go for small walks? Only that if he his suffering from Lami he really should be on complete
box rest upto 3 months for everything to settle back down again.
he will walk a bit better once he has had a little walk because his circulation will have improved but in the long term is it not good for them at all and can do more damage to the laminae.
My mare was chronic with Laminitis and if she had a bout of it she had to stay put in her stable for at least 4 weeks and then only allowed to be tied up outside whilst I mucked her out for a month or so after that. Its hard I know but necassary for them unfortunately.
Hope everything goes well anyway and good luck. been through it and its not nice at all
Janet
ps My mare was on spillers happy hoof and spillers high fibre cubes and soaked or dried hay, she was also on Global herbs Laminitis prone supplement which is an Indian herbal product for sensetive Laminae which I and my vet said had been to some use. |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 4:50:35 PM
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| Hi Janet - yes the vet has approved his short walks (although emphasis is on 'stroll' and no forced walking, however, after he saw him leaping and bucking in the school during an assessment thinks he's a lot better than we think)!! He was on complete box rest for 5 1/2 weeks and then had little strolls before the snow and ice hit! Since then (last 5 weeks) he's been 'out' about 5 times in total! |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 5:19:57 PM
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Ok thats fine then. Thought he had just come down with it and you were walking him out in hand.
Its a strange one thats for sure. How is his coat in general, no signs of it being a bit curly? his eyes, no signs of indentations above the eye socket?
My mare ended up with cushings and when she went on to Pergolide she improved dramatically virtually within a few weeks!!! her coat became softer and less curly (She only ever went curly on her neck)
her eyes didnt improve but she did, she went back to be a 2 year old
again which was benifical to her laminitis because she got it through
compaction and running around the field like a loon didnt help her
feet one bit.
Like I said good luck hope you get to the bottom of it.
janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 6:29:13 PM
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Has he got fat pads over his eyes? Yet another symptom I keep forgetting about although I'm paranoid about that developing on any of mine!
Good news that he might be allowed out soon. I know what you mean about stifness as opposed to lameness - when Khafif had one attack at the last yard we were at, she would wander down to the patch she was allowed on slowly but would explode when let loose - pretty sound then  |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 6:59:01 PM
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You have been through the mill a bit this winter with him Sarah haven t you? Very best wishes for his full recovery.
J |
   
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 09:13:46 AM
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| Originally posted by RAFA
Ok thats fine then. Thought he had just come down with it and you were walking him out in hand.
Its a strange one thats for sure. How is his coat in general, no signs of it being a bit curly? his eyes, no signs of indentations above the eye socket?
All change again!! Last night both his front feet were very warm so going to see if stopping the little strolls improve this, although i'm worried it may be his new supplements! Going to see how we go over the weekend but he seemed to be worse last night!!
His coat is as gorgeous as ever - he has no signs of any curliness!! In fact, I gave him a full clip in October and it's barely grown back!! He has very hairy teddy bear legs (which he has always grown in the winter) BUT it is definitely straight!!
The only curliness he's ever had is from his stretch and flex training wraps where his legs have gotten a little bit hot, but since I haven't been able to ride, the fur has gone all silky and straight!
He is VERY well in himself - bright eyed, shiny coat and looks HEALTHY... even the little unclipped triangle above his tail is gleaming!
He doesn't have indentations above the eyes BUT neither does he really have 'fat pockets' - they don't bulge, but the fact they are not indented the vet is taking as a sign of Cushings!
The only other 'cushings' sign really is his 'cresty neck' and fat pockets as the vet describes them, but he's always had a large neck, chest and very round bum and loaded shoulders - even when slim! (he was gelded late)!
He hasn't ever excessively drunk either - he's always done one wee at night and drunk approx 1 bucket of water when eating haylege - he doesn't drink anything with soaked hay!
Since he's been on box rest he's been doing 2 wees and now not drinking anything as he has soaked hay! He still does plenty of dropping though He's always done the recommended 8 or a night time  |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 11:29:39 AM
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hi sarah , hope you are well xx
what is Equistro Flexadin ? is that to help improve the lami?
i am still on same diet as you and all is well , nashy hasnt been out as much since the snow which has only recently left us
he is out again now though - much like you he is very stiff in the mornings ( arent we all!)
but walks out of it pretty quick although he is stiff in the hocks and is currently on double dose of bute for that until i can start the next stage of treatment ( injections) for stiff hocks -
there is a name for this but i cant remember it for the life of me!
anyway , its great news he can start to go out in the sick paddock -i know how you feel!
hopefully, like i did you will start to see improvement in his general mobility but not too much hey!??
take care both of you hugs , sazzle & nashy x
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 12:07:43 PM
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Your description does sound typically IR - Khafif never lost that IR look until she had been on pergolide for a while but then she dropped far too much off instead. And at his age, you'd expect him to have indentations over his eyes so the fact they are filled - although not puffed out - does indicate problems. One of mine will get puffed up over the eyes before a laminitis attack although she's IR and doesn't have Cushings. I dread the next few years in case she develops it The other of mine who is IR does have a round bum but the difference between her fairly fit, and fat, is obvious even though her bum doesn't really lost a lot of weight. It's more an overall look than any one particular area.
Your vet really needs to come and see some IR horses pre-magnesium supplements and post-supplement! I keep mine on it most of the year, and have found it really helps. Think I could do with that or Chromium to help me control my weight
It is a nightmare, sometimes it seems no matter what you do it doesn't help |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 12:15:06 PM
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Hey Sazzle - have you had his hocks x-rayed? If not, I would definately invest in getting them done before spending any money on joint injections!!!
Pasha's hocks got progressively worse (not stiff to ride but when picking out his feet it takes him a little while to put them back down - one is better than the other) SO vet suggests Hyonate IV injections (apparently really effective and does 'all joints' and no risk blah blah). Did they have any effect? NO!! After x-rays can see no arthritic changes at all so a complete waste of time! It really does depend "where" the arthritis is as to what (if anything) will work.... so my advice is double, triple and quadruple check that you can treat that specific type before you spend your money hun x
Equistro Flexadin is the joint supplement my vet recommended after the failed Hyonate injections (as Pasha was being maintained on 1 Danillon a day BUT me being me, wanted him off of it so I could compete BD  )... anyhoo we tried Cortaflex, Superflex, various bute alternatives etc and I worked out that none of them contained Glucosamine in the levels recommended in all the "scientific evidence" and was recommended Newmarket Joint Supplement by a friend - seemed to work so when discussed with my vet he said fine BUT only contains Glucosamine and Equistro Flexadin is better! So put him on that and didn't look back for almost a year.... until now!!
I never knew what a huuge impact it had on him until now when he's been off it a week! It's soo hard as some people say one thing and my vet says another... I really just want to do the best for him!
BTW Flexadin is VERY expensive from the vet but i've found a really reasonable on-line supplier (half price what vets and other on-line suppliers charge) so if you need the details, please let me know xx |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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angelarab
Platinum Member
Wales
2876 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 1:01:03 PM
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Just want to say you sound like you are coping really well, it's so upsetting when you can't make things better for the animals you love. Re Magnesium i have have read it's good for the feet and can help with laminitics, couple of people at work had theirs on it with good results, only draw back i found was it chilled my Gelding out to much, as it's also used as a calmer.
Sending you both big hugs |
 "Until one has loved an animal, part of their soul remains unawakened."
www.northwalesarab.co.uk |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 2:35:24 PM
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hey pasha , that sounds a good idea , could you pm me the details ?
youre so right @ £60.00 per injection and he needs 4 of them its not cheap! but , i just want him to be comfortable 
he isnt loving the bute either! bless him , he just pulls a face as if too say 'mum , am i ever going to have a normal tea that doesnt taste manky'!
i do put mint in it though but he's not impressed! i think our two secretly compare notes! sick notes!  |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 4:01:18 PM
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| I will PM you BUT will add the caveat that the Metabolic Horse people think Glucosamine can hinder progress in Cushings horses and not good for IR horses x |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 6:50:29 PM
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Just thought I might mention the Laminitis Clinic in Wiltshire.
You probably know all about their work and experience already but if not Google them and look at their website it's very informative.
Best of luck,
Chris |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 7:30:02 PM
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Two steps forward, 3 steps back, but in the end it will reverse and you'll see a difference for the better. he is very lucky to have you .
This is an exciting and worrying age for those with metabolic horses. i think we are on the brink of becoming much more knowlegable about these conditions, but at the moment there are lots of complex fragments that are not widely accepted as helpful. i think to truly understand, you have to do what Jackie has done and spend your life researching them.
Everything crossed for Pasha. I look forward to reading about your "interesting" ride when he's well .
Ros |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 09:28:42 AM
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Thanks Ros x Unfortunately Pasha is rebelling against research and refuses to eat any of Jackie's supplements!!! If fact he wouldn't eat anything apart from his hay for a whole day, even with all the "poison" removed!! I tasted it and only the joint supplement tasted bitter, but he won't touch the magnesium or chromium either
So now i've resorted back to cheap and cheerful - Apple Cider Vinegar and Global Herbs Move Free (as it's the only one I could fine that didn't have Glucosamine in it) - it is very 'gingery' but he's eating it so far so fingers crossed
My vet is coming back next week to re-do his bloods! It's very obvious that Pergolide is not working - so hoping to attack the IR directly with Metformine xx |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 10:35:11 AM
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| fingers xcd that he gets better soon, he is a very lucky boy to have you! |
pagey |
Edited by - nikki on 16 Feb 2009 10:35:35 AM |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 11:14:59 AM
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| Ah thanks although I doubt he would agree sometimes |
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Slave 2 Magic
Gold Member
England
1023 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 11:52:47 AM
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Hi Pasha
Have you tried Pernamax for the joints? I dont think it contains glucosamine and its in tablet form. My friends old pony has bad arthritus and he rolled for the first time in 2 years on this stuff! Worth a thought. Fingers crossed your lad improves soon.xx |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 1:17:10 PM
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Thanks S2M but I tried that when he was 18 and it didn't work for Pasha... also not too sure about feeding them mussels although i'm sure it's beneficial to some  |
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