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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 12:43:13 PM
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As a bit of an offshoot to the Sport Horse and premium scheme threads I think it's such a shame that the AHS show committee haven't considered the value of starting these classes at the National Show. As I see it this would achieve several things;
1/Provide classes for young/breeding stock which are destined for performance careers.
2/Provide classes for youngstock from premium stallions and so publicise the scheme.
3/Help to bring to greater public awareness the value and versatility of this type of Arabian and so help to market these horses.
4/Help to reverse the sadly dwindling number of Anglo and Part Bred Arabs of performance type which are bred and shown.
5/Give those of us who own and breed these horses some incentive to support the show and, indeed, the society.
If the society can see the value in staging the Crabbet arabian classes for a relatively small number of members to participate in -remember the Crabbet show was cancelled last year due to lack of entries - then there must be an arguement for staging classes which will not only include those of high Crabbet percentage but also other Pure bred performance lines plus the Anglos and Part breds.
Any strong views out there?
Angela
PS Not having a go at Crabbet lines but there are others who can perform too.
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 1:47:37 PM
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Excellent suggestion, I totally agree with you. We hold sports horse classes at the RAGW shows ( the only time I have shown in hand ) and they are a fantastic outing for a young horse, the chance to experience a show atmosphere without the hysterics. Also the style of showing allows appreciation of good, balanced, straight movement not just flamboyance. As it happens I am a Crabbet fan, but moreso an Arab fan and anything that allows the true quality of the breed .. ie the ultimate riding horse ...to be brought to the fore gets the thumbs up from me.
cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 2:18:44 PM
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ABSOLUTELY GREAT IDEA....but!!!..can we ever CONVINCE the AHS that this is the way to go The Crabbet Arabians, with their more substantial conformation, crossed to TB or Anglos, very often breed really top class performance Anglos, and Part Bred Arabs, when using stallions of other breeds
Unfortunately, it seems AHS are more focused on Breed Show classes and do not promote the breed as a Competition/Sport Horse 
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 2:24:59 PM
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Centaur,
Not so much strong views as confusion. As a breeder of Anglos and Part-breds I have always assumed that following their in-hand show career our horses would go on to compete in whatever sphere they were most talented in. Anglos and Part-breds have always been the ulimate competitors and many have been happily competing in open competition for generations without it being talked about. I have great difficulty therefore understanding how a sports or performance horse differs from others so warranting a seperate class. Are you saying that they have less good conformation and type (or quality) or am I missing something here.
Just because you have chosen breeding stock on the basis of performance doesn't guarantee the offspring will have talent (if only breeding was that easy). It's well known that full siblings can have different abilities let alone looks and temperaments. How many full brothers have won the Derby?
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 2:38:33 PM
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Hi Babs
You posted while I was typing.
I would agree that Crabbet would give you a horse with more substance but think that all Arabs, Anglos and Part-breds are supposed to be saddle-horses and have decent limbs on them anyway. I don't think there should be a need to promote competition horses seperately as this infers the rest of them are useless (which they definitely are not). This would be a case of shooting yourself in the foot IMO if the AHS went down this road.
We'd quite happily have 3yr.old In-hand horses lunged over a fence during a class if that's what's wanted, Bring it on!!!
Surely in these days of declining class numbers more sub division would mean even smaller classes, (if there really is a difference they can't go in both classes) or is the idea to get down to one entry per class so that everyone's a winner? |
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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 3:38:17 PM
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Hello Weirton
I have limited experience of the Anglo/Part bred world but I can remember former times(probably 20 yrs ago)when the classes were filled with substantial, well conformed, athletic, big moving horses which went on to performance careers. Now, rightly or wrongly, my impression is that the classes are largely filled by light boned, light framed/boned hacks and ponies & occasionally a riding horse. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with these types - they all have their place & use and if fashion dictates that this is all that is wanted then that is fine but they probably won't find their way to the upper echelons of performance.
Also I would refer you to to young horse gradings held by other societies and federations. Here the sport horse category is further subdivided into dressage, showjumping and eventing because the qualities needed for these disciplines are different so the conformation and style of movement required to excel is also specific to the task and training to be undertaken.
The gap between show horse conformation and sport horse conformation is much greater in the pure breds where the priorities appear to me to be poles apart.
I wouldn't see it a subdividing classes as there is no reason why pure breds, partbreds and anglos couldn't compete in the same classes |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 4:46:17 PM
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Centaur,
Interesting thoughts and I would agree about the priorities in the Pure-bred classes, but imo basic conformation is hardly taken into account at all, the emphasis being so much on 'type' and flamboyance. I think generally the quality is not so good (with exceptions) in the AA/PB classe as it was in the past but arab bone being so dense, it is quality not quantity of bone that needs to be taken into account to do a job. Also there are a lot of people who are small and need a smaller horse, which affects the scope and stride to some extent.
As for the different conformation for sports horses, I'm talking in-hand here, I can't understand this at all, good basic conformation is the same (with breed characteristics taken into account) in all types of horse. I appreciate that at a later stage certain priorities in make, shape and movement must come to the fore.
I hasten to add that I'm not against having sports horse classes at all, but fail to see the need for them as ALL AA/PB's should be useful competition horses in some field or another. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 4:59:49 PM
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Hi Jean.....Yes.....like yourself, our Anglos/ Part Bred Arabs not only have the Conformation, presence and paces of Top Class Show Horses, but the bloodlines to go on and compete in a wide variety of ridden Competition Disciplines, which they have proved.
However, my concern is, due to the ever decreasing numbers, supporting the AHS Nationals a re-think is needed, before Anglo/Part Bred Arab Breed Classes, cease to exist !!
I agree that having MORE in-hand classes is not wholly the answer but thinking along the lines of attracting more exhibitors and spectators to what should be our Breed Showcase Show.
Perhaps it may be an idea to Judge Anglos and Part Bred Arabs together, with height divisions and still have highest placed Anglo and Highest Placed Part Bred Arabs from each class, forward for their individual Championships These Classes then judged on one day, leaving (normally Thursday at AHS Nationals) free, which could well be the day to have Sports Horse classes, open to Pure Anglo and Part Bred Arabs, again with the highest placed Arab/Anglo/PBA in each class, going forward to their individual Championship
Also think that provided all Horses are registered with the AHS, exhibitors need not be Members, but would have to pay a higher entry fee, as is with other breed society shows and AHS Branch Shows.
I personally, would not want to lunge my youngstock over a fence, which I believe is a requirement for Sport Horse classes. However,
there are Anglo/PBA breeders who specialise in a much bigger, more substantial type, which is a basic requirement needed by most serious
Dressage/Event/Show Jumping competitors, and feel the AHS should support them with appropriate in hand and ridden classes. Feel it is certainly worth a try, if only in a bid to increase the awareness
of Arabian Sport Horses.
At B.N.F.O.Y Show last year, Sport Horse classes were introduced and entries were huge. The overall Supreme Light Horse came from this section. Not my type and quite different to a typical Show Anglo/PBA
being bigger and rangier Anglo?? may have been a Part Bred Arab and was sired by a NASTA tested Pure Bred Arabian.
School for thought, maybe??
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 07 Feb 2009 5:50:42 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 5:17:29 PM
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I don't think I'm a great fan of Sports Horse classes.
A good horse should display qualities as a foal or youngster that will meet conformation and breed standards but who is to say that horse will make it in the performance world?
So often, I see horses advertised as "would make an eventer" and whilst there's no doubt that the horse may have good movement or a good jump or be bold cross country, I'm sorry but that is a long, long way from being an eventer where temperament is a key feature. Hold however many sports horse classes that you want but there's no guarantee that the horse that wins will go on to be a great performer.
If a horse is judged correctly in its breed class, then you don't need special classes that just provide a different label and a different rosette.
I totally applaud the part and anglo breeders in the UK. For years, they have consistently produced superb quality horses with all the attributes to go on and perform.
The biggest problem in the Arab world is that performance is seen as something that is done by horses that won't make it in the showing world. A massive misconception and I know of horses that defy that. But, and it's a huge but, there is little appetite in this country to take the Arabian bloodlines and promote it as a horse outside the showing world. Loads of horses do compete and often very successfully, but the Arabian blood is denied or not mentioned.
Both our top performing part breds (Twist Hoeves Nancy and Heron de la Forge) have come from abroad. Nancy was bred in Holland and won numerous 4 and 5 year old performance classes (ie points for her dressage, show jumping and eventing - I don't mean an in hand class with white tape on the plaits). Heron was bred in France. In Europe there is no prejudice against Arabian breeding, they accept it for the value it provides. If you are interested in a European part bred/anglo, then you can look through the pedigree and see generation after generation of performance horses. Sadly, the same can't be said for the UK.
I've spent 4 years looking for a part bred/anglo that would event. I wanted one from proven performance lines and I've been offered some beautiful and obviously talented horses but hardly any of them was able to demonstrate the performance pedigree. This isn't because the horses can't do it or the breeders aren't producing the youngstock. It's because we in the Arab world don't promote the value of the horses and so there just isn't a history of performing Arabs. They are there, they just aren't known about.
So, to me, a Sports Horse class would offer nothing.
What we really need to do is be out there and competing, and when the judge hands you your rosette, say very loudly "Pure or part bred or Anglo Arab" and do it with the biggest smile you can. In the commentators information, put that your horse has Arabian breeding and then when they read it out, everyone at the competition knows.
Arabian blood should not be something to hide in a performance horse, it should be celebrated.
Until more riders admit that there horse has "a bit of Arab" in it, then no amount of in hand classes with the word Sport or Performance is going to change anything or promote the breed.
Sorry for going on but I really am passionate about this. When we started competing we didn't keep quiet about the pedigree of our horses and since then more and more people have admitted that their horse too has Arabian blood. God knows, we're not the first people to event with Arabians (there are so many brilliant horses that have) but we are probably one of the first to hold our heads high and shout at the top of our voices that the Arabian breed is a true performance animal.
I believe in our breed, and I always will. As long as Evie wants to event, then we will support her but the one stipulation is that she events horses with Arabian blood. However far she goes, however well she does or doesn't do, she will do it on an Arabian horse. |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 5:17:58 PM
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Perhaps we need to find out why the AA/PBA dont exhibit at Malvern?
I havent been for 4yrs because of the cost!I can go to half a dozen other shows for what it costs to go to Malvern!
I agree that to introduce yet more classes for less animals wouldnt be a good idea.
The AA/PBA is what ever you want it to be, they can turn there hoof to almost anything you ask of them.All you need is good conformation and a brain. Something that most of them have in abundance.Just because you are sports horse type doesn't make you a sports horse!
When Ranger was the supreme loose jump champion at the East of England, in the afternoon he did a sports horse class and wasn't placed!
Because he was PBA he was quite chunky and considered "not modern enough" to be a sports horse!
So what is a sports horse?
Nicky |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:08:42 PM
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I agree to a large extent with almost everything that everyone has said, I think Anglos and Partbreds are fantastic horses but they are not where my heart lies, so my enthusiasm for the idea was primarily from a 'pure bred' point of view. I am also very much a rider, not an inhand devotee.... however I do see the educational advantages of a sensible in hand career to the young horse and also the fact that these classes act as a shop window for breeders.
In an ideal world (and maybe in the past) in hand Arab classes would be judged as a young potential riding horse ie on good sound conformation and true, groundcovering movement... with of course Arab type and style.
(sorry but to my mind the whole point of an Arab is that he is a truly wondferful RIDING horse with all that this implies in terms of conformation, movement and crucially temperament)
I have seen in hand Arab classes in several countries and have to conclude that the animal's siutability as a future riding horse is very, very far from the judges' minds.
I am not saying we should promote coarse animals, I firmly believe that ' an ounce of blood is worth a pound of bone', (but the bone does need to be biomechanically in the right place!) and of course a good Arab is not just athletic but breathtakingly beautiful.
However a future riding horse must ideally have correctly conformed limbs, a strong back, good shoulder, decent length of rein and be sane (there is a difference between an animal being excited and being deranged), not just have a long neck, flat back and extreme head.
In this context I thought Angelas idea had a deal of merit in 'reprioritising' the qualities rewarded in in hand classes.
As I've said before,we owe the Bedouin a huge debt of gratitude and we should keep faith with the original purpose of these incredible little war horses....if the horse is not loyal, sound and handy enough to be ridden into a ghazu he is off type, and his rider probably dead. ( for ghazu we now substitute race, endurance ride, event... whatever but he must surely be ridden !)
Sorry for ramble but just got back from a fab ride on my young horse
who is by Mareschal and hate to think of a future where Arabs of his (lovely to my eye) stamp are regarded as old fashioned while exotic but poorly conformed animals are regarded as exemplary of the breed.
cheers
lisa
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Edited by - lisa rachel on 07 Feb 2009 7:27:09 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:18:32 PM
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ps Templars, nobody could disagree with you regarding getting out there and doing it in open competition, and you of all people have 'put your money where your mouth is', all credit to you.
I would only comment that the 'if' in your sentence 'if the animal is correctly judged in it's breed class' is a very big IF indeed in Arab in hand showing.
Lisa |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:23:19 PM
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Whist I am very much not a fan of Sport Horse classes....do not think the inclusion of same, would neccessarily mean even more classes with minimal entries. Judges of Sport Horse Classes, would probably not have a `Typical Arab/Anglo/PBA Show Horse` at the top of the class, and probably vice versa.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn`t `Sport Horse GB` formerley the Hunter Improvement Society?? A well conformed Arab/Anglo/PBA can be whatever you want it to be and capable of performing
in all ridden disciplines...........but try telling a Sports Horse Judge that!! Nickie found that out to her bewilderment. Supreme Loose Jumping......not of `Sports Horse Type` when shown in-hand.
We are all entitled to what we like......me, will continue breeding my type of Anglo as not intending to sell my Anglos outside my own Country 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 07 Feb 2009 7:29:21 PM |
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azeer
Silver Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:31:04 PM
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I have to say that I do not beleive (like others have posted) that seperate in-hand classes are necessary. Like Templars I beleive horses should be out there competing and shouting "arab" - I have been doing this for 25 years. Linda Hannaford and myself would compete against all breeds on Samad, Shalkar, Soberano and Amicabana to name some, in Showjumping, Hunter Trials, Eventing, Dressage and of course they were formed the famous and only ever pure bred team chasers the "Arabian Knights". We screamed arab everwhere and people hated it when we turned up becuase they knew we were serious competition. Now I tend to stick more to affiliated dressage but again Plum is known by people and they comment on his impeccable manners and lovely paces.
Years ago the show jumping and dressage classes were heaving at Malvern now sadly they are dwindling.
People often shout we want this and that but unless people support them it is difficult to see why they should be put on the schedule. The AHS tried light horse/ riding horse classes over the past couple of years but again these have not been well supported. |
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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:48:48 PM
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Very interesting discussion. I do find conformation and it's relationship to function (& disfunction!) fascinating. (Lisa, you'll know what I mean!)
Templars - in order for you to be able to source Evie's eventers in this country they have to be bred. In turn those that wish to breed need to see some prospect of return for their money, time & effort - there are fewer & fewer of the old established studs with sufficient wealth to merely play at it for fun. If there is no shop window for these horses & no fun to be had showing them as youngstock why breed them? One of my clients bred a very nice 25%Arab Anglo but didn't even register it with the AHS because she could do far more classes with her athletic type of horse by registering with the Sport Horse Society.
How do the Europeans assess their performance youngstock? In general their breeding industry is far more organised than ours and I suspect youngstock are assessed and graded, the best gaining value in the process.
In my dreams I win the lottery & sponsor all the Sport Horse Qualifiers and the final at Malvern - in the end it's usually money or influence that gets these things off the ground. Oh well I suppose I'd better buy a ticket.......!
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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 9:07:27 PM
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Azeer - How do you reply to people who see & admire Plum & ask where they can source a good Arab for a performance career?
I believe Plum came through the Dutch grading system. When I am approached by people who see my stallion competing in open competition I just don't know how to advise them. I certainly can't direct them to the current in hand classes. I would so like to be able to tell them that my society takes the sport arabian seriously and holds a series of classes or gradings for that very purpose so why don't they go along there with cheque book in hand to buy their own Arab to enjoy & further spread the "word".
Alas I can give no such advice & merely try to mention the few British studs who I know can produce the goods. |
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azeer
Silver Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 9:28:14 PM
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Centaur - you have started a good topic! Plum was bred in Russia - yes he was put through the grading system in Holland so he could be used as a sire there - their stallion licensing - I agree it would be good for us to have something similar in the UK. That said I dont feel the need to justify him to people - he is proven in hand, ridden, they can see the conformation and paces for themselves. I have had several people interested in using him who have asked about him whilst I have been at dressage. I do believe that seeing is the horse in use in a discipline speaks volumes. People see the temperament, paces et al.
I am personally think that pure breds should be used more to produce part breds and I think that certain spheres of riding are doing more of this - certainly in Europe they are re-introducing more arab blood into the dressage horses.
However people need to be open minded, something we are not great at in England imo) people either like/ love arabs and although there are many successful PBs/ Anglos /Pure competing unless they scream arab and self promote nothing will change. No amount of advertising would change peoples views - the proof is in the pudding - JMO
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 9:57:10 PM
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There's no good reason (but a lot of excuses) why pure breds aren't considered as sports horses. My daughter had a purebred Arabian gelding on loan a few years ago. This little horse (14.1hh) competed in open show jumping classes and cross country events at all our local shows and in many Pony Club events; in the One Day Event he had one stop at the fence into the wood, she turned him, took the jump no problem and finished with still the fastest time of the competition  . He was incredibly fast but accurate and loved his jumping. She took him to Malvern and in the young Riders' class was put down below some 'very posh' pure breds who napped and reared but were more 'typey'. At local level he was treated as a horse (amzingly that's what he was!LOL) and no different from any other competitor.
There are lots of Arabs, pure and part bred (including Anglos of course) who are competing as 'sports horses' but the AHS does not promote this side of the breed well enough. Refer back to the Premium scheme thread. Pure bred showing has taken all the limelight - and arguably to the detriment of the breed for its long term quality and survival. I'm aware that there are some fantastically bred young horses who should fly the flag for Arabian sports horse breeding in a few years time and we should be proud of them  . |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 10:06:51 PM
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Very interesting discussion and some valid points made,
but surely to have a chance of breeding a sports/ridden/performance horse (Anglo/pure/part bred ) both the sire and dam should have proven itself under saddle in at least one discipline and not just in-hand - where it seems that fashion and show records alone dictate and where a 'pretty head ' (which is often debatable ) carries more marks than the limbs !!!
It does seem that more and more people are thinking the same way but unfortunately still seem to be in the minority.
Whilst it is an excellent idea of centaur for these classes - would it not be more beneficially to change the current and ridiculous way the pure bred in-hand horses are shown.
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 10:33:37 PM
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There is a difference between Sport Horse/Pony Evaluations/Gradings and Sport Horse Classes which are held at Shows.
The British Evaluations/Gradings are on the lines of the Europeans and they aim to acknowledge/record the successfull bloodlines within the 3 disciplines. The Evaluators are people with specialist knowledge and are evaluating & grading against a recognised standard, hence a vet's assessment is included. They are looking, ultimately, for a future olympic horse. The assessments are held indoors as the horses/ponies are loose schooled and if they are eventing or show jumping as 3 yr olds they are put down a jumping lane. Conformationally horses/ponies are very different for the 3 disciplines (as Centaur has posted). The Dutch (KWPN) don't mix the bloodlines for the disciplines.
Now in hand Sport Horse Classes, how can Judges assess the true athletism of an eventer or show jumper, they don't see the canter and they certainly can't see them jump? It is a well known fact that the trot can be trained but the walk and canter can only be improved. What is left for the Judges to judge, a good walk, a trot which can be or may have already been trained and conformation. Therefore, I would assume, the rest has to be down to the judges preference to type which is similar to showing.
I am not against in hand Sport Horse Classes, quite the contrary and I do support them but I have to accept their limitations and remember they are very different to the gradings.
I too Nicky had a similar experience with a Mare Grading and then the same day a Sports Pony Show class. The Sports Show Class was character building, requiring a stiff upper lip and a cemented smile on my face! |
Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 07 Feb 2009 10:34:51 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 10:56:31 PM
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Oh Carolyn I'm with you totally!!!!!!
I too have watched our horse go cross country, do dressage and beat the saddles off other horses in the show jumping only to be put down the line in ridden showing because we didn't "look the part" - our browband wasn't sparkly enough, our mare didn't look happy in the show ring, our daughter's stirrups were dressage length not showing length. A couple of years ago, we turned our back on the Arab showing world.
Yes, we will always take the youngsters out and about to get them used to a variety of experiences and yes, it would be nice to show them at Arab shows. But you know what, I really couldn't give a damn whether we come top of the line or the bottom and it is that change in my attitude that has helped us enormously in the performance world.
And Centaur - yes I am perfectly aware that my horses have to be bred somewhere. That's why I started breeding my own "horse sized" Arab horses several years ago. They may not be known on the Arab circuit because I don't choose to show them there, but they are here and in my stables and are either sired by or out of mares who are pure bred.
It's also why, when I started to look for 16.1+ Arab horses that I didn't look in the showing world. I went totally the opposite way and guess what, I've found exactly what I was looking for from a breeder who just happened to use an Arab stallion on a top performance mare, simply because he was convenient. I now have a superb 16.2, 4 year old, unheard of but who is very closely related to a British Olympic horse and he's 50% Arab, the rest 50% TB - my ideal Anglo Arab. He'll stay completely under wraps until he makes his mark on the performance world and then we'll announce his breeding. He won't be doing any showing at all because he's busy in training at the moment for dressage and eventually, eventing.
A good part bred or Anglo Arab does not have to come from the Arab showing world. It would be brilliant if they did but the fact of the matter is that they don't.
Sports Horse classes do not enhance the reputation or prospect of a performance horse.
What we desperately need is a change of attitude to get rid of the stigma of Arabian blood. The French bred Anglos are sought after throughout the world. British breeders are producing horses that are equal to (if not superior to) French horses.
Horses for courses guys.
Showing horses have their place in the world but it is not the be all and end all. Nothing stops a show horse from going on to win at performance disciplines but nor is it a sure path to success.
Someone please tell me - if we added a Sport Horse class just what benefit would that be to the Arab horse? All I can see is that the current horses on the show circuit would put on plainer bridles, try and loose school and take the accolade of "a performance horse" without taking one tiny step to ensuring that the horse really could perform.
Two years ago, we were invited by ECAHO to take part in the World Pure Arabian Performance Championships in Austria. We were thrilled. We arranged all our calendars to get there. And then I read the rules. No matter how well the horse had done in the performance disciplines, the final class was an in hand class. What a complete farce.
Anglo and part bred breeders know exactly what they need to produce and as I have said a million times, British breeders of these horses are amongst the best in the world. The quality and raw potential of the horses they produce is phenomenal. But they need to be seen out in the performance world and recognised as Arabians. If all they do, is take a top six placing at the Arab Nationals in the Sport Horse class, then they will have achieved nothing to further the reputation of the Arab horse as a performance breed.
We need to remove the stigma of Arab breeding in the British performance world if we are to succeed.
The French are proud of it. The Germans recognise it's importance and value. The Australians are introducing it more and more. New Zealand has quietly been exploiting it for years.
The Americans don't even know it exists. The British hide it away.
Why do our top riders go abroad to buy the bloodlines that are already produced in the UK? Georgie Spence and Fachoudette???? For goodness sake, Fachoudette could have been bred here.
And at a much more modest level, us and Heron. Why have we had to buy a French horse that has competed successfully in the world eventing arena? There are British bred horses just as capable but tragically, no rider promoting the breeding. A down right shame but we needed a schoolmaster at this level and no-one, and I mean NO-ONE is producing these horses at top level.
When we change that, then British Arabian breeding will get the recognition that is decades overdue.
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 11:02:59 PM
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I agree First Lady (Hi btw!), I would love to see ( major!!) changes in the way that purebreds are shown and judged in hand. However this is difficult to do due to vested interests, money and inertia in the system. I think that Centaur's idea was to at least provide breeders with classes in which they could show their youngsters in a civilised manner and where they can expect to be judged as Arab horses and not as fashion items.
I am personally not particularly interested in showing and least of all in in hand showing, but I am passionate about the Arab horse and am well aware that the in hand showing classes have a massive effect on the public's perception of this wonderful horse. Who as we all know only too well is regarded by many as a weedy, ill conformed twit.
This breaks my heart when to my mind they are basically a gift from God....generous, athletic,clever and just plain heaven to ride.
It goes without saying that all Arabs should have useful ridden careers and that success in open competition is the best promotion possible.
I think Centaur was just trying to think of a way to address what many of us see as a range of problems ( uptight horses, poor selection of breeding stock contingent on in hand showing success, poor public image of the breed, fashion victimhood, potentially cruel training methods and general ridiculousness ) which have become associated unfortunately with some aspects of in hand showing.
As Centaur implies, for the sake of the riding horses of the future we can't ignore what goes on in the inhand rings, they have a massive influence on the future shape of the breed.... just note how many fewer breeders of say Crabbet stamp arabs there are now than a few years ago and how many more breed to satisfy the requirements of the in hand rings... that is where the money and the sales are.
I believe that we all agree that the inhand judges should be looking for exactly the same qualities that we would look for when purchasing a future riding horse. We also know that sadly this is often not the case.... and that is exactly the problem that Centaur is aiming to address... and to offer the solution that youngstock be judged as potential ARAB (classy, floating, beautiful) RIDING (sound,sane, well conformed) horses.
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 11:29:18 PM
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Really interesting and informative thread....The `fors` and `againsts`
on balance, from those who are in the know regarding Sport Horses, would indicate that in-hand classes bear no relevance to ridden Sport Horse Evaluation.
Therefore my earlier suggestion for in-hand SH youngstock classes at AHS National, is retracted...no use having extra classes which may not be supported!! Thinking cap on again, she says...UUUMMMMMM
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 08 Feb 2009 07:50:04 AM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 11:29:58 PM
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Templars , you are absolutely right regarding the British horse world's atiitude to Arab blood compared for example to the French... the Selle Francais being more or less an Anglo. The list of outstanding horses with Arab blood is endless, in fact Arab blood is the wellspring of quality in all horses everywhere and always has been.... the tb and warmblood breeds would simply not exist without the Arab. The question is .. why is Arab blood seen as a source of embarrassment by some British riders? I think that part of the answer is in the in hand rings and this is what Centaur is aiming to try to address.
Personally it wouldn't bother me in the least if there was no such thing as in hand showing but there is, and it affects peoples percetions of the breed. I applaud those trying to help rectify this, while still absolutely totally agreeing that the proof of the pudding is the performance of Arab horses out there excelling in a variety of disciplines,verstlilty being a hallmark of the breed.
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 12:30:02 AM
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BabsR you might be interested in having a look at the UK KWPN Gradings, the one I went to a couple of years ago was at Coventry and the Dutch Judges/Evaluators were very good at explaining what they were looking for and answering questions. Last year one should have been held at Sport Horse Centre, Ryton on Dunsmore, Coventry, Warks but was changed to Wrestow Stud, Southam, Warks. The dates are not on the KWPN website for 2009 but there is lots of info on the grading requirements.
Sorry if this is "off topic" and I know yours are British bred AAs.
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Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 08 Feb 2009 12:33:46 AM |
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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 06:53:41 AM
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Azeer - It's not really about justifying horses like Plum - they justify & promote themselves - it's more about how the people who use him promote & market their youngstock as potential performance horses.
Templars - I would be very interested to know how the French started selecting their Anglo Arab competition horses - I'm quite sure that the horses of the calibre of those ridden by Nicholas Toiuzant (spelling?) did not come about by chance.
Of course we can take our Arabs & Part breds to gradings held by other organisations but shouldn't we be doing something for ourselves. |
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