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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 3:52:13 PM
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Be interested to hear from any of you out there as to your views on this situation.
I bought a mare in Wales earlier this year – advertised as a broodmare, and scanned in foal at approx 32 days. The mare’s bloodlines were ones which I was interested in continuing, and I was also keen on the breeding of the expected 2009 foal. When I made arrangements to pick the mare up, I specifically enquired beforehand as to how she loaded and travelled, and if she would be ok in a trailer as opposed to a lorry – I was told by email that she was fine a) to load, and b) to travel in a trailer.
I arrived with a friend to collect the mare, and received all documents etc – including the covering certificate and the scan. The mare had been covered in May, and the scan was dated August. Everything seemed fine - but then she would not load. After a while, I was concerned at potential injuries to the mare from where she was getting panicky – so we agreed that the breeder would do some trailer training with her (it turned out she had never left the yard for any period of time in her 16 years, and had loaded possibly some 12 years ago), and then deliver her. At the time the husband stated he would only deliver if I paid the fuel, which I did not commit to – having driven for 2 and a half hours to go and collect the mare and used approx £100 fuel myself.
The mare was delivered to my friends yard two days later – reportedly in a terrible state, soaking wet, stressed, tucked up and looking underweight. Her weight etc had been fine when I saw her on the Sunday, but the journey was obviously massively stressful for her.
She came into season about two days after…. When this was queried with the breeder we were told that she often does that even when in foal, and it was normal. The mare then came repeatedly into season every three weeks, and was taking a long time to put weight and condition back on, she was incredibly stressed and did not settle in well to her new surroundings at all.
After a while my friend called me to say she really did not think the mare was in foal, and probably had not been when she was delivered – due to her coming into season so soon after. I called the vet who did a rectal exam., and no pregnancy, and no foal for 2009. An empty mare.
I called the breeder to discuss options for the mare, who had still not settled well and we were worried about her happiness and welfare. The breeder said she could not take her back as she had no room, I asked for another covering (but was not keen to do this as it would mean stressing the mare out and moving her again), or some form of contribution towards the fact I no longer had the 2009 foal I was looking forward to, and had indeed paid for in the price of the mare – I was told that I had got the mare cheap, perhaps I should consider putting the mare out to someone as a companion instead, no to any money back, or contribution towards the loss of the foal, and an email stating “I hope this is the end of the matter”.
This breeder will not reply to my emails – and I am now left with a 16 year old mare who I will have to wait to cover this spring, then another year for a hopeful foal. I have lost a year, and a foal – and the breeder refuses to have anything to do with this, or work with me towards an amicable solution.
I tell you this story because I would hate this to happen to any of you - but I am also interested to hear from others if this is normal, and I should just accept the breeders attitude as the norm, and accept their refusal to speak to me about this. This is the first broodmare I have bought, so grateful for any advice anyone has.
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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 4:02:30 PM
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| Sorry to hear about your problems. Are you a member of the BHS? they have a legal helpline. even if you are not a member then its surely worth a phone call, I think that they offer legal advice to non-members for a fee. Or contact a solicitor who pecialises in equine matters. |
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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 4:38:17 PM
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| Theres a report on the Horse and Hound web site at the moment about someone winning £8000 from the seller when the pony turned out to be a bolter, you might find it interesting reading. |
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ali bali
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 4:46:48 PM
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| Hi Elspeth, I dont know anything about breeding I'm afraid but one thing did jump out at me, you say she was covered in May and scanned in foal at 32 days. Surely in that case the scan should be dated June or the first couple of days of July not August as you stated? Or am I being daft? If I'm not missing something then it would suggest that the scan was not of your mare but of a different pregnant mare which in turn would show a deliberate attempt to mislead you which in turn I think is fraud.... |
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ali bali
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 4:49:55 PM
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| Though if this was the case it would be very difficult to prove. Perhaps I have just got mixed up and there is perfectly reasonable explanation, as I say I know nothing about breeding horses! |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 5:26:26 PM
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| Hi ali bali - sorry, typo - July 7th covering Cert, not May. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 5:39:22 PM
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does the scan actually name the mare who was scanned?
also l have never heard of any breeder not honoring a covering, l assume it is her stallion, or is there some reason why she can not recover the mare?
sadly these days it seems that far too many people once they have got rid of a horse want nothing more to do with it once they have your money...
rehome her to someone as a companion....cheak...after they have your money..
l would see a solicitor
people like this give honest breeders a bad name
ash
ps l too feel sorry for the mare...reach 16 getting on a bit so lets get rid of her! or am l reading this wrong?
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Edited by - ashabarab on 18 Jan 2009 5:41:01 PM |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 5:47:33 PM
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hmm, the scan is handwritten with her stable name on the back....
Handwritten by whom, i dont know....
Money aside - that poor little mare has had a heck of a change in her settled 16 years of life with the breeder, and no wonder she was so hysterical when we got her. The livery owner and myself both agreed that the absolute best solution for the mares welfare was that she go back to those she knew, and what she knew - but they wouldnt take her. The mare was covered by one of the breeders own stallions- and again, for the mares sake i didnt want to put her on a trailer and take her back again due to the trauma. But i had thought that it would be fair to offer a stud fee, or some contribution towards the fact i paid for a broodmare in foal - but no longer have what i paid for... Thats why i asked for any feedback, in case i was expecting too much, and the usual procedure is you get what you pay for, and once sold - the breeder absolves total responsibility... i wasnt sure, having not bought a broodmare before.. |
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 6:00:44 PM
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Hi Elspeth,
If I were in your shoes, I would sent them a letter of "intent" (recorded delivery) giving them 14 days to contact you with a compromise, eg: a return breeding or particial refund,
You bought the mare "in foal" and have a covering certificate to prove this!
If they do not reply I would certainly start a claim through the small calims court, and I would feel very confident of a favourable outcome,
Good luck
Lx
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 6:14:08 PM
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l very much doubt if many people have found themselves in your situation either!
firstly my vet sends out written results after he has scanned a mare its usually the bill but the mares name date and the size and development of the embryo are all listed..obviously l already know the result as l was there but this is merely conformation..if l wanted this for a anything l would request a copy with the billing details omitted
handwritten by who? is the vets name on there?
l personally would offer to recover the mare for free, but l would request costs ie transport livery etc but these would be to cover my own costs...not to make a profit and l think that is what most breeders would do...after all they have the stallion, even if they did not the only reason not to recover is if this was a lease stallion who had gone back, but even then surely you would get some money back as the mare is not in foal...
breeding your own foal is a wonderful experience..please do not let this put you off, you have just been unlucky with the people you have dealt with
ash
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 6:26:16 PM
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I agree with Linda. I would send her a letter Recorded Delivery so that you can track that they have received it.
I would say that the tremor of the journey to you could have caused her to loss the foal.
Pauline  |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 6:32:49 PM
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I'm not 100% sure about what is the main issue here. Is it that the mare doesnt travel well or because she isnt infoal? Personally, if a horse I own doesnt travel well then it simply never travels at all, even if that means me not doing what I wish to do, for example, the horse may jump exceptionally well, but if it hates travelling then it would only go to to shows which I could hack to [ if any], even if this ment it never reaching its potential.
If a brood mare wouldnt travel well then the stallion would have to come to my place etc.
I hope no one takes offense at this post, 16 is quite old for a broodmare , i think.
OP, could you just keep her as a pet? I understand the issues regarding the mare and your purchase, but if her previous owners dont want her then I a wonder what will happen to her? |
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Kizzys Mum
Silver Member
England
389 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 7:00:26 PM
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| My friend is currently in an ongoing legal case due to a similar situation, they have found in her favour, I would do as suggested above and send a letter and with any luck they'll sort it out, if not small claims would be the best way to go |
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Havenbeech
Silver Member
Wales
427 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 7:00:38 PM
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A handwritten scan??? Alarm bells ringing here!
My vets keep a record of all scans on my mares and record any fluid pockets etc on their records for thier information next time that particular mare is scanned. Maybe i am just lucky but surely it wouldnt be difficult to get proper confirmation from the studs vet?
On the other hand - so early on in the pregnancy she could quite easily reabsorb with no signs at all and it would be ery difficult to prove that the stressful journey was however likely the cause of this.
Whilst i would be inclined to back you on this and feel you have been really hard done by, i would advise you to seek legal advice as it could be a very expensive matter to persue with very little gain.
SOrry to hear of your misfortune and i hope the mare is settled and takes this year to the stallion of your choice.
As for 16 being old for a broodmare - both my old birds 18 & 19 yrs old blossom when full and wither away when empty - proof is in the pudding of a happy horse!  |
www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 7:14:08 PM
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16? too old to be a broodmare?
better not tell mine that
most mares can and do breed into their 20's with no problems
Shirley Watts bought Pilarka in her 20's for l think about 13 thousand at the Gucci dispersal sale and had l think 3 foals from her
there are several 'older' mares for sale on se at the moment fabulously bred [Ansata] all in the higher price range one is 35 thousand euros
food for thought
ash |
Edited by - ashabarab on 18 Jan 2009 7:50:21 PM |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 7:48:12 PM
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Hello a friend of mine is a dealer but one who really loves the horses and totally honest and she has said it is really hard these days because the law is on the buyers side and you have to be really careful NOT to sell something as something unless it really is what you say it is, if you get my meaning. I would write to the seller giving her the 14 days in which to reply with a suitable answer, also stating that unless she responds within the 14 days you will take the matter further and will aslo be claiming addtional costs incurred by yourself. It does not matter that the covering certificate or scan is hand written the fact is it came with that mare, which is false representation in itself. Get a vet out and ask all the necessary questions in case it goes to court as you then have spoken to a vet who will give you their opinion as to whether the mare could come into season two days later after losing a foal, I don't think so, I don't think this mare was ever in foal personally. the mare should be covered again by the same stallion with all cost incurred by the seller. I feel terribly sorry for the poor mare. She may well travel alot happier in a lorry. How could anyone do that to their own horse anyway |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 8:21:34 PM
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Thanks - this feedback is valuable.
The point of my opening this up to discussion was to ask whether people were of the view that a) I bought a broodmare, who was scanned and i believed to be in foal. The mare has lost the foal (when, not sure - but the fact she travelled so badly may suggest she lost in transit, or perhaps she had re-absorbed even before the journey in which she suffered so badly ). But, that is life, and therefore my loss.
Or b) I bought a broodmare, who was scanned and I believed to be in foal - I now have a vets report to say there is no foal, and so I thought the breeder would make some attempt to recompense, take on board my comments that i thought the mare should never have been sold in the first place due to her stress levels in both travelling and taking three months to start to settle at a new yard, and take her mare back and offer me an alternative, or work with me to do what is best for the mare...
I suppose i am wondering whether any other breeders out there would sell a mare after 16 years, knowing she does not travel well, and also knowing that in her late teens to move her from a life she has known all her life will be traumatic etc.
One other thing, i found out later that she had been covered by the same stallion the previous year, and lost that foal too. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 8:33:18 PM
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Elspeth,
A)Did you buy the mare because you wanted her?
B)Did you buy the mare because you wanted her foal?
C)Did you just want a broodmare and you now feel she will not"perform" that task? |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 8:52:05 PM
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Hi Susan,
Bought the mare due to her bloodlines, which we wanted to continue.
A bonus to her bloodlines, and what sort of ticked the final box for whether we should definitely buy her or not were the bloodlines of the foal she was apparently carrying.
Didnt just buy her as a broodmare as such - but because of bloodline reasons as above. Whether she will now perform the task - i just don't know.
Hope this helps. thanks for your interest. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 9:27:26 PM
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My first thought was this;
"so we agreed that the breeder would do some trailer training with her."
So what happened next?
"The mare was delivered to my friends yard two days later – reportedly in a terrible state, soaking wet, stressed, tucked up and looking underweight. Her weight etc had been fine when I saw her on the Sunday, but the journey was obviously massively stressful for her."
Two days training? I would seriously question the 'training' and the result it had on the mare for her to arrive in that state?
Just my opinion obviously.
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Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
Edited by - Chris James on 18 Jan 2009 9:34:07 PM |
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carrie b
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 11:06:51 PM
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Have another PD! My 20yr old TB mare was covered in late August last year and scanned in foal in October. The same vet came back to do a rectal examination in January and - oh woe, no foal. I was told she had reabsorbed. So we rode her out most of the summer, ignored her attempts to bite when her girth was tightened, and gave her no special attention. In June I realised with shock that she seemed to be developing an udder. I called in a different vet...you can guess the rest. In spite of no special feeding and being ridden regularly up to the last two months she had a splendid colt foal on 12th August.
If your mare was covered on 7th July, before doing anything else get her re-checked!
As a side issue, there seems to be a suggestion here that the breeder has been less than honest. What strikes me most is that the breeder has bred and kept this mare for all of her 16 years, and that she looked in good fit condition when her new owner saw her. Clearly the breeder is not a callous dealer and has cared for this mare for 16 years from birth. In this case maybe we should be cautious about knee-jerk reactions. No doubt there are many cases where legal threats and actions are appropriate, but this does not strike me as one of them. I know nothing of the people concerned. I can understand the distress and disappointment of the mare's new owner, but if the mare turns out not to be in foal then she has three months or so in which to accustom the mare to travelling in a trailer to be put in foal again.
Sorry - further side issue but I hope not irrelevant. We recently had to travel from Devon/Cornwall border to Liverpool to collect a young horse we had bought. We hired a small self-drive horsebox with groom's compartment at the back for a human to accompany (and pet and reassure) the horse and CCTV for us up front in the cab, and in spite of atrocious weather conditions and an 18 hour return journey unloaded our young arab gelding back in Cornwall as if he'd just been out for a Sunday stroll. Cost of hire? £90 plus fuel. So, if the mare's new owners were concerned about the mare's pregnancy why were they sufficiently unconcerned to allow her to be transported in an ordinary horse-trailer and, moreover to be deposited at a yard - not even the new owners' home.
Maybe the breeder, as well as the new owner, may be having second thoughts. |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 09:38:48 AM
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Hi Carrie - thanks for feedback.
Few answers to your questions - why did the mare not come to my yard? Because i do not have experience of breeding, or broodmares (i only have geldings), so for precisely that reason, i put her into livery with a very good friend of mine who has been breeding for many years. This was in order to ensure the mare was looked after by someone far more knowledgeable than myself - i was looking for the best care for the mare, not depositing her at someone elses yard. This was to be a learning experience for me (my first foal, so i was beside myself with excitement) - but i wanted to do it right, and for her to be in experienced hands.
If i had reacted with a knee jerk reaction- i would most certainly have started down the legal track... but i havent. I have been trying to discuss this matter with the breeder from before Christmas, left it over the Christmas break so as not to hassle them, not put pressure on etc. And again - precisely because i liked the breeder when we met, had contact with prior to the sale, loved the way the horses were kept at the stud etc - i've been trying to fathom out why i feel as if they've "washed their hands of the matter". The reaction of "you got the mare cheap, no to any compensation regarding the lost foal" just doesnt ring true of the person i met.
In terms of your comment - maybe the breeder is having second thoughts as well as the new owner - thats why i contacted them to say she was taking a while to settle, had lost the foal, and that we felt she would be much happier back in familiar surroundings. She probably was a mare that should never have been sold in the first place. I was prepared to take a loss on the mare if only to get her back to her home and be happy again.. There was no room, so they could/would not take her back.
Not completely sure of your point re: trailer versus lorry. i have towed a trailer for many years, and am confident i can give bad travellers a quiet and gentle trip, so having checked in advance that she loaded and travelled ok - i hitched up my trailer, didnt think to hire a lorry!
Hope this clarifies some of your points.
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 10:01:47 AM
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Hmmm, this is an issue that can be as complicated or as simple as you wish to make it.
Regardless of how the mare travelled etc, you were sold a broodmare in foal and now you have an empty mare which may (as you said she absorbed the year before as well) have breeding issues. You do deserve either a percentage of what you paid returned, or, a repeat breeding to the stallion. I would go with what Linda suggested and send a recorded delivery letter of intent, followed by a solicitors letter if they do not respond. If they do respond then you both need to work together to get a settlement and MOVE ON. If they don't then you need to speak to a solicitor and maybe it would be time to contact the vets and find out some history on the mare..... but one step at a time.
I am usually of the thinking that if you have a sound breeding mare with a strong pregnancy it's actually quite hard to get her to re-absorb a pregnancy from stress alone. Many people say it but i think in reality, it wouldn't be the travelling stress that would cause her to lose the foal, and if the mare has a history of not carrying well, then it would be that that has caused the loss.
Don't take this the wrong way but to me, you sound like an obvious novice and maybe this breeder kind of took advantage of that...maybe not, but one word of advice is that unless you actually really like the horse itself then you shouldn't be buying it to breed from just for it's bloodlines. A bad horse with good bloodlines is still a bad horse.... and even the good ones don't always turn out to be broodmare material so you need to be able to appreciate them for what they are if it turns out this way. Sorry to sound patronising.
Let us know how you get on. |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 10:09:50 AM
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Without further veterinary investigation it could be difficult if the breeder doesnt want to play ball. A horse sold as a ridden horse must be able to perform its job and a horse sold as a broodmare must be capable of producing live foals but unlike riding horses it is a lot harder and more expensive to prove misdescription . Linda's advice is fab though i would start the letter as a without prejudice. |
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