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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 10:47:20 AM
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Hi Michelle,
Thanks for the complete novice comment - you're absolutely right in terms of breeding and broodmares, no previous experience, guilty as charged! Plenty in riding and competing - but purely geldings. Thats why i wanted the mare to go to an experienced stud where she was in good hands.
Just a point of clarification - dont think the mare re-absorbed the year before. I was told she had been kicked by a visiting horse in the stomach, and had aborted. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 11:12:44 AM
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Hi Elspeth, I have pm'd you but as a matter for general discussion, I wonder if the mare had been vetted before you actually bought her, by your own independent vet?
I have experience of buying a "brood" mare, she was with 2 of her offspring and only 13. We were told she had re-absorbed the last foal due to a stress situation, and took it at face value, as with 'kick' you were told about.
She not only did not cycle regularly, but developed pyometria, and had a damaged cervix from a previous bad foaling. When we did get her examined by an equine gyneacological specialist, who did a uterine biopsy, she also had endometritis. We were told she could concieve but due to these other probems would not carry above a few weeks, then may not come back in season, so we would never know if she had carried on in foal, (which she would be incapable of carrying to term.)
We lost a couple of years in the process, and lovely lines lost to the breed.
Our seller was not 'dishonest' as such, just naieve, and I do not think we were deliberately mis-sold.
I STRONGLY ADVISE ANYONE BUYING A BROODMARE TO GET THIS ASPECT CHECKED OUT BEFORE YOU PART WITH YOUR CASH
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 11:19:09 AM
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Sorry......... but if the stud were genuine people they would not hesitate in making some form of concession and they would not just ignore your calls, so looking at the facts in the cold light of day, whether you are a novice or not, things are not quite as honest and above board as people would have you believe and I second the post that tells you to find out the mares history with the previous vets and speak to your vet. And well done you for having the sense and consideration of putting the mare with a friend who is more knowlegeable than you, it shows that you had the future welfare of the mare at heart |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 11:31:52 AM
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Do you have a copy of her complete breeding history? A mare who aborts one year and absorbs the year after makes me hear alarm bells, especially as they are both the same thing = losing a foal/not carrying to term.
Agree with Pat, you might have just been unlucky, some people can breed for years and still not really have a clue what they are doing!
Despite that, I would say you are due a stud fee, even if it turns out that you are unable to use it on this mare. |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 12:34:22 PM
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Elspeth,
If people are ignoring your calls etc, you are wasting your time!
You have to send the letter of intent spelling out what you plan to do if the matter cannot be resolved between you both, normally a 14 day period is given,
The mare mustsuitable for the purpose you bought her for,
I am not sure that their vet will give you any information about this mare, I may be wrong!
Please make sure you keep proof of all e-mails and dates of telephone converstions,
Keep your letter simple and stick to the facts,
1. you bought a broodmare (infoal)
2. you were told she loaded and travelled fine (otherwise you may not have either bought her or travelled a pregnant mare)
I bought 2 horses from Germany both in foal from different studs, and both with contracts,
Only 1 contact stated there was no guarantee for the foal, so I bought her with this risk in mind,
Did the people you bought her from state this?
Lx
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 1:01:47 PM
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Thanks for your support and further discussion points:
Firstly Pat - no, didnt get her vetted independently as had covering certificate and scan from breeder. (took at face value, like your example) Beauty of hindsight and all that - if i had, i would at least have been able to pinpoint more easily when the foal was lost/re-absorbed etc....
Secondly Michelle - believe the mare had three foals previously (i met one of her daughters when we went to pick her up,) that is in addition to the one last year lost, and the 2009 foal, also lost.
Thirdly - Linda, no, no contract stating or not stating guarantee of foal.
Its such a shame - she is a super little mare, but i had no anticipation of what a massive wrench it would be for her to have to leave her home after 16 years, and of the trauma she has had to go through, and to lose the foal too. Right now, i am just concentrating on deciding what is best for this mare, where she will be most happy, which other horses she will be most happy with, and how we can find the right solution for her. In all of this, the welfare of the mare has been No.1 priority. I was devastated when I heard the vets report regarding the foal - but regardless,you cannot brood on that, you have to move on.
I do feel however, that all your feedback has been very helpful in looking at the situation from all angles. There are (big) lessons to be learnt for me should i ever decide to go down this road again (at the moment, no fear - I will stick to my geldings), I feel clearer that the general consensus does seem to be that there is a moral responsibility from a breeder to do something or offer something in a scenario such as this. I wasnt sure before - which was why i raised the topic, but your many helpful comments has clarified this for me. |
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 1:08:19 PM
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Elspeth,
You sound like a lovely person who clearly has the mares best interest at heart,
I hope things turn out for the best, for both you and this poor little mare,
Lx |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 1:19:45 PM
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Linda I agree with all you have said too and also feel very sorry for elspeth especially as a newcomer to all this and I fell so sad for the mare in question........ my advice is try your best to get this matter resolved with the person who sold her to you failing that do your very best for this poor little mare and plan for the future, sometimes when things look terrible they can turn out for the best and you thank your lucky stars that things did not turn out as you expected, maybe looking for another stallion to cover your mare is the answer and she may turn out to be the best mare you have ever had, who know what the future holds but I do wish you and the mare the very best in the future and keep us updated, I really hope things turn out well for you both |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 1:26:55 PM
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please do not give up the dream of breeding your own horse as it is the most magical experience ever
do not let one person sour you...l promise you others are not like this...you have just been unlucky in your choice..
ash |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 2:26:28 PM
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I know you're right Ash - its just all been incredibly traumatic, and i'm not sure I can cope with the experience again. And lets not forget my friend who has her on livery, who's been dealing with the situation brilliantly - the mare has not been easy, and was dangerous to handle in the beginning as she was just so incredibly traumatised. Trying to settle her in took so terribly long, piling the feed into her to try and get some weight back on as we thought we had a mum to be on our hands, the initial question of why the mare came into season so quickly, then being told by the breeder that this was quite normal, so believing and trusting the info given - its been a total roller coaster. Add to that the devastation of the vet saying "no foal", and the breeders reaction (or lack of) to me asking for help or some form of compensation. I couldnt go through it all again, but i'm scared stiff someone else might, when the next mare is sold from that establishment.
Anyway, onwards and upwards - you'll just have to put up with me coming to hassle you and your babies in the spring when they are born, as i've lost mine ....x |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 4:16:41 PM
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l am always happy to show off my horses with or with out babies however every time l go to see other horses it rains
depressing...l just always take rain wear in the car........l guess it could be a torrential downpour but sufficiently enthused l would not notice..................thus speaks the addicted
but you will be very welcome
ash |
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chris wesley
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
220 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2009 : 3:25:48 PM
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Would be interested to know if this is the same breeder we sent 2 mares to and reccomended to our friends who sent 4 mares to .
Both my mares were down there for 4 months and scanned infoal , livery bill of over 1200 pounds , collected both mares who then came in season week after arriving home , again both scanned by our vet to be empty . We covered both mares by our own stallion which we purchased during the 4 months the mares were away at stud , and both took infoal the first time .
We contacted the breeders in Wales who refused to give the deposits back even though the full keep livery was paid 200 each mare , An alternative stallion was offered but he wasn't the one we wanted to use , the stallion we chose went home .
By the way 2 of the 4 my friends sent down did have foals .
Would we reccomend again ...NO NO NO!! |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2009 : 4:49:52 PM
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I am not a breeder but have bred only one foal that I kept so dont know the ins and outs of everything but you bought this mare with the intention of breeding this foal, which the owners of the stud said she was in foal and they gave you the scans etc etc.
Now, in my eyes if the mare absorbed or aborted the foal before it was born, which is not uncommon, I think they least they could do was to either have the mare recovered, which I know by the sounds of it you dont want to put the mare poor mare through having to travel again or to compensate you in some way so you could use a local stallion or a stallion that could travel to your mare!!
At the end of the day they sold you an infoal broodmare, they didnt sell you just a broodmare!!!
For the good of their own stud and reputation, btw I dont have a clue who you are talking about, so I presume they want their reputation intact, the least they could do is to do something about it.
The price IMO as nothing to do with it, wether it be £100 or £10,000
the issue here is you bought an infoal mare.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 1:15:57 PM
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Morally I believe the seller has an obligation to make good your loss but I do think the price is an issue:
You have to ask yourself 2 questions:
Would you have purchased the mare if she were not in foal and would you have paid the same price for the mare not in foal.
If the answer is yes to these questions then I guess that it is time to move on and chalk this up to experience.
In the past I have purchased in foal mares but the price I have paid has been what I would consider a fair price for the mare were she not in foal. So many things can go wrong with a pregnancy and the resultant foal I would not consider this in my negotiations.
In the long run actions like this on the part of a seller only damage their reputation and lose them customers for future sales.
If you do not want to take the mare to another stallion why not consider AI (I would first get the breeding history of the mare to avoid throwing good money after bad) some vets will undertake the necessary procedures at home.
It would be nice to think that all sellers would take back animals they have sold but sometimes this is simply not possible and if they are that unscrupulous why would you want to send the mare back anyway
Yvonne
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 8:22:57 PM
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Hi Chris - have PM'ed you.
Cinders/Rafa - I know, I see and hear both the viewpoints - and am aware of the risk of losing the foal, at whatever stage in the pregnancy. I bought the mare for her bloodlines, and indeed the bloodlines of the 2009 foal too - so the double whammy is a) lost the foal, full stop, and b)will she hold another? When i was told that the mare had lost the 2008 foal due to a horse sent there for breaking kicking her in the stomach, and her aborting at 7 months.. a lot of alarm bells starting ringing, but by then it was far too late. Would any of you breeders mix other peoples horses with your own broodmares, seven months gone? I dont think so, - why would you ever put your precious broodmares at risk from an unknown horse....
So here we are - the foal has gone, I have paid for a broodmare in foal, I have the mare, but the fact that she has lost the 2008 and the 2009 foal, does that bode well for a 2010 baby? - on top of the stress, the worry, the ensuring that the mare is happy and well - the breeder has told me "they wont have her back, they wont provide a replacement, they wont pay a stud fee, that i could perhaps find somewhere for her as a companion mare, and that as I paid less than the asking price, they hope this is the end of the matter"
What concerns me is that they are still breeding, still advertising mares as being scanned in foal right here, right now, I so hope other people do not go through the same experience as me, and find themselves fobbed off with the above reasons as well. I was so excited about this new experience, with my first foal, and indeed first broodmare - and the whole thing has been ruined for me by the attitude of the breeder. Such a shame.
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 10:36:18 AM
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Hi Elspeth
My mare, Princess, had a very heavy fall in the field when she was about 91/2 months pregnant, we are on heavy clay and the ground was rutted and like concrete where she fell. They were galloping around the field and as she was extremely large she didn't manage the "motorbike" turn. The thud was awful to hear, I was sure she would lose the foal as she just lay there panting, she was totally winded, but after a few minutes she got up and ambled off. We had a gorgeous filly right on time. A kick is unlikely to dislodge a healthy foal although it is possible.
If you have details of the vet the breeder used get your vet to ring. I bought a broodmare who reabsorbed (the gorgeous SE Ash has on loan) and when I rang the previous owner's vet they refused to give me any details due to client confidentiallity but said that they would speak to my vet if he rang in the interest of the horse. Unfortunately the owner had not used that vet for long so I was none the wiser. Ash knew this before she had the mare on loan and we dicided to try her on regumate as she got in foal and had been scanned in foal at 28 days. Fortunately it has done the trick but I have now heard that either she or her foals were very ill and almost died but the person who told me can't remember any details.
I assume you are near Ash, if you were nearer me I would offer you a very cheap covering to one of my stallions although I don't think they are the bloodlines you want. They don't stand at stud but are all very well bred and good quality horses. I hate to hear of someone losing their dream; having your own foal is a scarey but totally magical time. The thrill of your new foal is unbelievable. My vet was all for doing all sorts of tests on my mare to see if she was OK but I spoke to Delyth and she said if she was getting in foal to just put her on regumate as it was the ones who didn't get in foal who were a problem.
Thank you, Delyth.
Regards
Barbara |
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Noo
Bronze Member
England
69 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 2:06:15 PM
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Barbara - thank you for your kind thoughts and comments. And thank you so much for your kind offer of a covering by one of your stallions. I saw Einstein at The Hand, - adored him, and he definitely deserved to win that class, so was delighted when he did.!
Getting my vet to speak to their vet is a great idea - and as I have all the vacc certs etc, I will be able to follow this up.
Thanks for the tip, and again - thanks for your support.
Have also PM'ed you.
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2009 : 3:51:47 PM
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you see not everybody is like your 'breeder' in Wales most people who l know who breed arabians are nice caring people who will bend over backwards to help you and your horses......not try to wash their hands of the whole situation
Barbara has some fantastic stallions too
Einstein you saw but there is also Spanish Crusader who is a beautiful Crusader son out of a spanish mare...
then of course there is the new colt 'Taz' Moatez Al Nakeeb who is going to be amazing...his sire Hilal Al Nakeeb has just been leased to Egypt
then there's the Ansata Qasim colt...very cute
and the lovely Farouk...who is quite a character and loves to go galloping around his field with a pink bucket in his mouth [his favourite toy]showing off
as these are in my opinion some of the best stallions in the UK today and if they were at stud would probably stand with stud fees in the thousands this is a very kind and generous offer from a very nice lady
this is a true breeder, dedicated to her horses not the money they can generate
pity there are not more around like her
ash
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 09:53:39 AM
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Thanks for your nice comments, Ash. "Money they can generate", what on earth does that mean? Someone once said to me "you must have loads of money to have all those horses" and my reply was "I would have loads of money if I didn't have all those horses". I never have two hapennies to rub together as they cost me a fortune but what I get back from them can't be counted in monetary terms. Quite simply, they are my life. The comment "How do you make a small fortune out of horses?" and the answer "Start with a large one" always makes me smile, so true.
I hate to hear of people being done down as it spoils ones pleasure and leaves a sour taste. Sometimes things do go wrong and it is no ones fault but when one has the means to put it right then there is a moral obligation to do so.
I hope in a couple of years you will have a lovly foal and all this will be a bad memory, Elspeth.
Barbara |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 10:06:48 AM
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Ha ha Barbara, loved the last post! too true, most of us would be very comfortably off if we had all the money we'd sent down the horse money pit!
We are only here once, we should all follow our dreams, and I do hope that you get the foal you wanted Elspeth. |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 12:54:39 PM
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hi Barbara
l think we would all be more than comfy if we did not have the horses but personally l know the quality of my life would be poorer, a lot poorer as my horses are my life
l think a lot of people promote stallions to earn money from them which is what l meant...how many emails a week do you get from promoted [with professional photographs or dvd's in exotic locations] stallion with large stud fees...l get a lot
we know that to make money from horses you have to be very very lucky..[or win the lottery]....or follow the high profile us stallions with very high stud fees
and probably not the best quality of life
ash
but do not give up your dream elspeth, you will miss out on something wonderful if you do!
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