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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 11:09:38 AM
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Having just been to a lovely classical riding lecture/demo (at the TTT in Shamley Green last night) I am wondering whether there are any/many folk out there who are into classical riding with their arabs?
The horses last night were hanoverian/warmblood types and - without wanting to offend anyone - it seems weird to me that the dressage/classical scenes are so dominated by them. Seems to me that with an arab you're almost automatically half way to the classical riding goals...what does everyone think?
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 11:14:52 AM
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| I can remember about 20 years ago the arabs being terribly popular in this area, maybe it is the tiny women monster sized horse brigade taken over. |
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Offira
Platinum Member
England
1583 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 12:12:04 PM
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I am a big fan  . I was lucky enough to have lessons with Andrew Day for many years, what a brilliant trainer/rider he is.
I think Arabs have a head start in anything they do (but I could be biased  ) as they have such natural cadence and intelligence. However, I don't think Arabs are suited to every type of rider and for some people they are just too small (even the bigger ones) compared to a Hanoverian. I only encountered one really vile (and unfair) comment from one judge but then she was from the humourless/grind your pelvis into the horse/endless 20m circles school of riding (note: this was nearly 15 years ago and I'm still not over it )
Also for pure dressage some types of Arab naturally flex from the 3rd vertebrae instead of the poll (particularly stallions) which makes the rider pay attention early on. |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 12:24:05 PM
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| I've had a few classical style lessons on my Arabs and it's a method which really suits them. I'd love to do more with them given time and would like to get out and do some dressage to show the anti Arab people locally how good they can be! |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 12:53:09 PM
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| Classical Training is for me the ultimate, such a joy to watch,rider and horse in perfect harmony,have been able to watch a friend training toward grand prix. |
   
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 12:54:05 PM
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Wish me luck then (P12 and P18 on Weds) How do you define 'Classical Dressage' ie how does it differ from the normal kind?
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 1:22:52 PM
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| my old mare was trained in this way, can't tell how awesome it was riding her!!! |
pagey |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 1:53:05 PM
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Yes For me it's the only way and now i'd never go back!!!
My trainer used to be married to a Spanish Riding School master and she spent 3 years based in Vienna learning the ropes.
My first lesson was a real eye opener... I had been over riding, trying to 'force' Pasha into an outline and correct way of going through strong aids, lots of leg and spurs! (I have never been an advocate of gadgets though - he's never has draw reins, chambons, bungies or anything like that on him).
We've spent a year or more now on working on getting him up in the shoulder, off the forehand and light! The difference is absolutely amazing!
He is soo off my leg, I hardly use my leg - everything is from the seat, he is light, floaty and an absolute pleasure to work with. He works beautifully and effortlessly in a soft outline, really working over his back and powering from behind.
I hear so many comments from people that are surprised that Pasha is an Arab, as he's uphill! Yes Arabs can be light in front and 'uphill' too with correct training! It does take time, but it is so worth it!
German and Dutch warmbloods are specifically bred uphill, so half the work is done already! I had a lesson with a top trainer a few weeks ago who advised me when I buy a youngster, to look for one built uphill and on the bit! Yes you still have to work through the scales of training, but it's easier when they're 'built for the job'!
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 2:04:33 PM
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surely with classical riding, the breed is completely irrelevant as the whole ethos is of the correct way of going to the limit of the horse's conformation. Probably the only reason there were alot of WBs there is that there are alot of WBs in dressage.
I have a luso and classical training is close to my heart and the arabs I rode when younger appreciated the classical way of riding over the 'conventional' way.
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 2:12:43 PM
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Yes it is to some extent, but horses are naturally built on the forehand and they have to be trained to carry their weight more behind in order to perform the movements we want with us sitting on their backs!
Classical training focuses on the building blocks of the scales of training - nothing is hurried, no short-cuts are taken, but the end goal is the same.
The breed should be irrelevant, however, competitive persons are always going to choose breeds which find it easier i.e. WBs as they have been bred for the job.
I love my little Arab I really do, and he has movement to die for, but I love dressage too and want to work up through the grades so more than likely my next horse will be a WB |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 3:54:33 PM
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yes, I appreciate all horses are built on the forehand. competitive dressage isnt classical dressage, nowhere close. someone should be able to compete on say a Highland and be marked for its own merits at a level, rather than in comparison to a WB. But alot of judges are incapable of this. someone remarked in the In Hand thread some judges are blinded by flash and showmanship and this happens all of the time in dressage. FGS Anky's horse wont even halt lol!
It shouldnt matter that the Highland cant demonstrate as huge a trot as a WB, and both should only be marked for correct work. personally I can hardly bear to watch modern competitive dressage-its a parody. |
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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 4:06:47 PM
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| Visconde, I agree with much of what you say. If you don't mind me asking, do you find the lusitano a 'better' ride somehow than the arab, and if so, in what way? |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 4:27:01 PM
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Visconde I see where you're coming from, but there are many who would disagree and alot of those competing at the highest levels of dressage are classically trained. It's easy for those of us watching to pick faults i.e. the fact that Salinero doesn't halt, but to achieve what he does, she must be doing something right!
Carl Hester said that any horse that can canter can in theory be trained to PSG - I agree, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will do it with as much finesse as the top WB horses. I don't disagree that native horses or arabs shouldn't be marked on their own merit, and in fact, in my experience competing my arab, the judges don't discriminate and mark what they see - we actually do better than alot of my friends on expensive horses! However, certain breeds are bred to perform a certain job and unfortunately, WBs are bred for that WOW factor so in most cases will have more arena presence and be more pleasing on the eye and therefore, even if a native is as technically correct, it won't get the higher marks. |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 5:11:38 PM
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| Originally posted by DoriBee
Visconde, I agree with much of what you say. If you don't mind me asking, do you find the lusitano a 'better' ride somehow than the arab, and if so, in what way?
oooh, now you are asking! I love both breeds and there are similarities in boldness, reactivity, intelligence and sensitivity. now I know arabs can jump and when ridden sympathetically are lovely rides but the luso IME is for me more comfortable and manouverable if that makes sense. its horses for course really-my luso, bless him, doesnt have the ground covering paces to do really well against arabs in endurance (although he can accelerate damnedly quicky forwards, backwards and sideways). he's incredibly athletic-they were bred for centuries for close combat, cattle work and bullfighting.They are bred to be comfy to ride and they really are. IMO arabs are one of the few breeds that cross well with lusos-the other being welsh 
I know a few people that have bought lusos around here-every single one of them say they have had to relearn how to ride. I have too but I think that riding a couple of arabs in my youth has helped immensely in that I have ridden something that sensitive before. I dont like to work that hard when I ride so I'll stick to the responsive brainy types |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
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Zareeba
Bronze Member
62 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 11:23:08 PM
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Yee-ha! A subject very dear to my soul, having spent donkeys’ years boring the pants off anyone foolish enough to broach the subject of classical riding! If anyone is really interested in finding out more about classical riding you should visit the Classical Riding Club website (www.classicalridingclub.co.uk). I’ve written a bit about it myself over the years – have a look at my website www.xenophon.org
Originally posted by Karon I've had a few classical style lessons on my Arabs and it's a method which really suits them
Karon, don’t take this the wrong way, but classical riding is not a ‘method’, it’s a set of principles based on the horse’s physiology and psychology and its aim is to enhance the horse’s natural abilities until he has fulfilled his true potential.
[i]Originally posted by Offira
Also for pure dressage some types of Arab naturally flex from the 3rd vertebrae instead of the poll (particularly stallions) which makes the rider pay attention early on.
No horse should ‘naturally’ flex from the 3rd vertebra instead of the poll – if they do, it’s a sign that all is not well in the mouth/neck/back area – I don’t mean necessarily a physical problem, usually it’s the rider/the way the horse has been trained. If you look at so-called ‘pure’ dressage these days you will see very few horses indeed that actually do flex at the poll – most of them are overbent. The FEI rules state that the nose should be at or slightly in front of the vertical depending on the horse’s level of training – yet FEI judges don’t apply the FEI’s own rules!
Pasha, I disagree that half the work is done already with WBs. They may look uphill but if you look at some of the top dressage horses, especially in the so-called collected movements (which these days, mostly aren’t) and you’ll see that most of them (not an exaggeration!) are actually on the forehand.
Visconde – couldn’t agree more about modern competitive dressage – it is a parody. And a lot of judges are sooo ignorant - I had to really bite my tongue recently when talking to a British Dressage judge – she told me that Arabs aren’t really built for dressage & they don’t find it easy to bend – oh really? No-one’s told our lot that (all 7 of them can bend fine) especially my gelding Zareeba, who at 20 can still bend his whole body in order to scratch near his navel! This inability to judge anything but certain types (i.e. Warmbloods) was one of the reasons why Sylvia Loch devised the Classical Training Tests – no room here to go into it but anyone wanting to know more, have a look at the Classical Riding Club website (www.classicalridingclub.co.uk) – these tests are much more horse-friendly then BD tests.
Pasha, I have to agree with Visconde. Very few indeed of those competing at the highest level are trained classically – they are trained to WIN and there is a huge difference! And Pasha’s remarks about WBs having more arena presence & being more pleasing to the eye puts in a nutshell what is wrong with competitive dressage – it’s become little more than a showing class. And such tension in so many of the horses! A friend (who is also a dressage judge, but she likes & has ridden Arabs and says they can do dressage perfectly well and are easy to bring off the forehand – hear, hear!) and I recently watched a video of some of the ‘greats’ of yesteryear – how fluent, supple and relaxed they & their horses were compared to so much of what we see nowadays. And those horses could piaffe!
Recently 2 books have been published which are totally frank about the abysmal state of competitive dressage: Gerd Heuschmann’s Tug of War: Classical versus ‘Modern’ Dressage and (even harder-hitting) Philippe Karl (for many years of the Cadre Noir in France) Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage I don’t agree with absolutely everything they say, but they hit the nail on the head more often than not.
Originally posted by Visconde IMO arabs are one of the few breeds that cross well with lusos
Sylvia Loch’s late, great stallion Palomo Linares was a Luso-Arab – he started life as a bullfighting horse (not one of the top dressage horses could move with such suppleness and agility), went to stud, then ended up with Sylvia as her top demo/school horse. What a magnificent horse was ‘Mr P’! Best of both worlds, as Sylvia says.
So yes, I think classical riding and Arabs go together like – well, like things that go together! (sorry – late night – suffering from brain-fade!)
We should ride to do something good for the horse’s sake so that he can be beautiful and display himself by his own will to his own advantage. We should not manipulate horses to make them our competitive vehicles for winning ribbons.
- Charles de Kunffy, The Ethics and Passions of Dressage[/i]  |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 07:32:39 AM
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[/right]Pasha, I disagree that half the work is done already with WBs. They may look uphill but if you look at some of the top dressage horses, especially in the so-called collected movements (which these days, mostly aren’t) and you’ll see that most of them (not an exaggeration!) are actually on the forehand.
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good post Zareeba. I too urge people to read Tug of War because it has a basic but very clear way of describing biomechanics. a horse that is overbent is on the forehand period, they cant be any other way. another lightbulb moment for me was reading Racinet Explains Baucher. Hard to get hold of but the best book on equitation I have ever read.
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spyros
Bronze Member
England
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 07:50:13 AM
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I have been having classical dressage lessons for nearly a year now with Mike Garnan in Malvern and Alina in Ledbury, I agree Pasha and Denmoor Stud 100%. I love every minute of my lessons and look forward each week to learning more & more. We have two Purebred Arabs and one Andalusian the difference the training has made to me and all three of the horses and there way of going is enormous.
When the horses are off the forehand working from behind, it feels wonderful like riding on air. Would recommend to anyone. I too this month am off to take part in my 2nd
Classical Riding comp with the Three Counties Dressage Team. No expections of a rossette but thoroughly looking forward to taking part with Galoul and Taranto. 
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Edited by - spyros on 09 Sep 2008 07:58:26 AM |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 09:02:48 AM
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Zareeba, sorry, just wrong choice of word! Having some classical lessons with a really good instrcutor has changed the whole way I ride, and how my horses go - everything I'm doing makes sense in the lessons unlike so many lessons I've had previously.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling if I do ever make it back into a dressage arena, a lot of judges round here will simply see "Arab" and think "can't do dressage" - however it would be fun to prove them wrong! |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 09:18:29 AM
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For me rollkur sums up what too much of modern competitive dressage has become. No matter what else a rider who uses this technique might achieve, for me they can never be respected.
When I can I have classical dressage lessons from a CRC approved trainer and agree wholeheartedly with their principles.
I keep trying to become a better rider, for the sake of my horses, it just doesn't happen as fast as I would like though lol |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 09:50:12 AM
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I'm not really sure how to respond as it's easy to take the moral high ground and generalise.... although what I will say is that if Isabel Werth could get the same out of a Haflinger as she can a Hannovarian, do you not think she would? It would certainly be a lot cheaper to buy!!
Sylvia herself favours the Luso as a schoolmaster due to it's "outstanding temperament and physical and mental sensitivity", so why the WB bashing? If all horses could be trained to perform dressage movements to the highest levels with the same finesse, elasticity and expression, where are they? You can't blame modern judging! If that was true, the Spanish Riding school would be full of welsh ponies, shires and shetlands!
I'm not really sure where you're coming from regarding modern dressage - there are those out there taking short cuts, doing just enough to win, but there are soo many in the sport who have spent years beautifully training their horses and i'm sad that you feel the way you do.
It may surprise you that I am familiar with the Classical Riding Club! I disagree that Sylvia designed the Classical Riding Tests due to the "inability" of the BD judges to judge.... she designed them to teach people how to ride their horse rather than riding the movements!
Yes there are those in the sport who take short cuts and do anything to win, but I do not believe that is the majority!
Rather than hiding behind the 'discrimination' other breeds suffer at the hands of BD judges, why not get out there and show them what you can do?
I have come accross the odd few judges who haven't liked Arabs - there's no law against it! I've also come accross judges who compete cobs and don't like WBs. |
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Offira
Platinum Member
England
1583 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 11:54:29 AM
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Zareeba - re the 3rd vetebrae thing - I think I led you astray here - I was referring to the mitbah (i think that is right)
My own horse (stallion) would hold his neck this way when at liberty as part of his posturing and general showing off, the highest part of the neck was not the poll but about four inches behind it and it was entirely natural. His breeder was very proud of it but I didn't pay too much attention until he was started under saddle.
Perhaps it was his particular bloodline (Ben Rabba) - short coupled with lots of power and suspension. Interestingly his daughter holds herself differently (flexing at the poll naturally) which must the splash of Russian blood in her dam and having a more rangy frame/different type of movement.
I have two photos of him at libery, one as a young horse showing this 'mitbah' and then as an older horse (trained under saddle) carrying himself with flexion at the poll. Very interesting.
I couldn't agree more with the statement that you should be able to get a tune out of any sort of horse. I have the biggest fluffiest horse you could imagine with zero cadence, but using the scales of training he is light and supple but the power is all there! He has shown work that could put my better conformed Arabs to shame. Bless him.
I am ready to be corrected on the mitbah - is it the right word? |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 12:35:00 PM
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there are highly classically trained Highlands, welshies etc out there. why dont they compete? because classical isnt always compatible with competitive dressage levels. In Portugal for example, its not uncommon for a horse to be taught piaffe before its taught to canter in endless small circles. because many lusos are so short coupled,sustained collection at canter with bend can be more difficult for them than lateral work and other traditionally thought of as 'harder' movements.Short coupled horses have advantages and disadvantages (as do long coupled. Short coupled horses are strong and can collect easier but are also less flexible and training must be tailored to address this. There has been a lot of talk recently about the interpretation of long and low, and how this is detrimental to more upright types such as Iberians and cobs-actually putting them more on the forehand than they may be naturally.
I'm not really WB bashing either-although after looking after many over the years its not a type I would want.watch Anja Beren/Philip Karl ride a WB and you'll see lightness but sorry, I just dont see it in most of our top competitive dressage riders and the vast majority you see in the arena are overbent, slobbering (because they cant swallow) & tense.
I photograph at events and see so many in cranks and flashes. relaxation begins in the jaw-if the jaw is strapped shut the horse cannot be relaxed. without relaxtion you have nothing.
Pasha, you said yourself to move up the levels you need a WB. thats true but not for the reasons you think unfortunately. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 3:20:16 PM
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Please let's not all fall out over this, everyone is entitled to their view .
I happen to be an admirer of Iberian horses, a passionatelifelong devotee of the Arab and not much of a warmblood fan ... with some exceptions but it doesn't matter. Dressage just means training ie training a horse to carry a rider in comfort and ease to encourage engagement and lightness, all horses can be trained so all can 'do' dressage, the only difference is good and bad training, and of course breed differences in terms of conformation means that some breeds find advanced movements easier than others. It is a personal choice as to which breed we ride.
As for competitive dressage all I will say (this being a totally personal opnion of no real merit as I am not an expert) is, that if Anky's olympic gold dressage was the ultimate then sorry it's not for me ! I found parts of it quite ugly and thought her horse very tense, and her aids less than subtle!!
On the other hand there are videos on you tube of some riding at Golega in Portugal ... the working equitation for example absolutely brilliant quiet subtle riding or doma vaquera (??) where a man calmy performs piaffe, passage, lateral movements and then circles repeatedly on a tiny circle doing one time changes... all this carrying a hat in one hand and a garrocha in the other... astonishing... I would give a very great deal to be able to ride like that!
Cheers
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and that you are happy with the judging you've recieved too.