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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 3:49:24 PM
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I have ridden all 3 types mentioned by Lisa...Iberian (wonderful, light responsive 5 yr old stallion, absolute joy to sit on), WB (my friends big lump of 17.2hh Hanoverian idiot, and a loon to boot) and my little elderly (altough noone has told her that) arabian, all 14.2hh of her!
I have competed in dressage on 2 of the above mentioned horses, my arab mare and friends lump of a warmblood....I would dearly love the chance at competing a pure Iberain, the power I felt on that one half hour session was awesome.
BUT.........Out of all these, I would have my girl...she has CONSISTENTLY beaten 'dressage bred' WB's, and her scores rarely fall below 65-70%. My highest score to date has been a HUGE 79.5%...ok, only at Trailblazers, but judged by a BD judge, who commented that 'if the horse were younger, I would have no hesitation in recommending the combination for the BYRDS/World Class Potential scheme. Power, Precision, and a joy to judge. Horse is happy in her work, and the horse/rider bond is obviously strong'
I would love to do Classical Dressage with the youngster I am getting....and she will be competing, along with my older mare at affiliated and unaffiliated level.
Personally, it just proves that arabs are the original all round horse........after all, is it the dash of Arabian in the Iberian horse that makes it so comparable to the arabian?
Emma xx |
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Visconde
Junior Member
36 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 4:41:36 PM
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Emma, i'm so glad you've had a good competing experience with Crystal and just goes to show that even the oldies like Crystal and Pasha can go out and compete against the young ones!! Go oldie Arabs!!  |
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Zareeba
Bronze Member
62 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 10:58:59 PM
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Pasha – with all due respect, I think you’ve missed several points during this discussion.
I never said that Sylvia Loch designed the Classical Riding Tests due to the "inability" of the BD judges to judge [different breeds] – that was only one of the reasons (as I said in my post!). But I do know it was a factor because Sylvia discussed this very subject with me when she was first working on the Training Tests…(certainly one of the main goals was to teach people how to ride their horse rather than riding the movements – but see below re ‘movements’)
No one to my knowledge (certainly not I!) is saying that all horses are equal or can be trained to the same level – I have certainly never heard anyone – ‘classical’ or not - say they thought all breeds are equal!
I’m certainly not WB bashing – we have 2 part-warmbloods of our own, and one of my favourite horses outside our own yard is a Dutch Warmblood. WBs in general (remember there is no such breed as ‘the’ Warmblood, and all the WB stud books are ‘open’, so they differ hugely in type and ability – also many WBs have lots of TB and Arab blood!) certainly have lots of presence. All I’m saying is that just because so many of them look uphill, that doesn’t mean they aren’t on the forehand! In fact WBs in general are much more ‘horizontal’ than the Iberians (and – dare I say it? – Arabs!) – they are bred that way! (not just my opinion – people like Paul Belasik have said much the same kind of thing). In fact most of them – even at Grand Prix level – are on the forehand – again, that’s not just my opinion; it can be proved by reference to video analysis (see Deb Bennett’s Principles of Conformation Analysis if you don’t believe me). Why is this? Is it the horses themselves, or is it that the training and riding simply aren’t correct?
This brings me to another point. You say that WBs are ‘bred for the job’. But what job? What, after all, is dressage? (The late Udo Burger, one of Germany’s most knowledgeable and respected show judges, said, ‘It is difficult to understand why dressage has become a sport…’) Earlier on you say, ‘If all horses could be trained to perform dressage movements to the highest levels…’ If I’m misunderstanding what you are saying, then I apologise, but surely that’s the reverse of what dressage should be about? It should not be about teaching horses to perform dressage movements, it should be about using the movements to ‘dress’ (or train – from the French dresser, to train) the horse! This is one of the reasons why I have so many problems with modern competitive dressage. It seems to have taken the movements out of context (they should have no purpose other than as tools to train the horse) to the point where they have become an end in themselves, instead of a means to an end. This inevitably means that principles have become compromised – if this is not the case, why is true collection – even at the highest levels – almost non-existent? And naturally riders produce what they perceive the judges want to see, regardless of whether it is correct or not. In fact, Carl Hester recently said in private that even though he doesn’t like it, he has to ride his horse overbent in competition if he wants to win because that‘s what the judges want to see! And if having more arena presence and being pleasing to the judge’s eye are really so important (as they seem to be) then doesn’t that simply demonstrate the extent to which ‘dressage’ has become more like a showing class?
Of course there are many riders who, as you say, have spent many years beautifully training their horses; this includes some riders at the top levels. But there is also a lot of truly ugly riding to be seen at all levels, horses bursting with tension, fighting the bit & so on…for every picture of harmony there are many, many more that make me feel desperately sad, both for the horses and for the art of riding…As for short cuts, if the riders who use these are in the minority, why are draw-reins so ubiquitous (one dressage trainer – and he is not alone – automatically puts horses in draw reins!)? Why do so many riders use crank nosebands (instruments of the devil!)? And why are so many of them utterly ignorant of the principles behind what they are doing (or attempting to do)?
Charles de Kunffy has this to say:
‘No serious riders ever believed the training goal was to compete. They believed that you rode a horse to unfold his natural potential until it was fulfilled and the horse could offer no more physically because he had no more genetically defined talents to display…Elevating competition to be the end goal of riding rather than the development of the horse’s talent, could derail the tradition of classical equitation.’ (Ethics and Passions of Dressage)
Sorry about the rant, but I’ve been analysing dressage competitions for more years than I care to think about, and while some things have improved, others have got much, much worse…Pasha, please don’t take anything I have said personally – it’s certainly not meant that way!
Lisa Rachel, you have put it perfectly in far fewer words than I…
Visconde, please don’t take your ‘so-called classicist butt’ away – you’re needed to keep flying the flag!
And now, for something completely different (well, almost!):
Offira – I see where you are coming from now. Some horses (usually, though not always, stallions) do ‘break’ further down the neck when they are displaying – it’s to do with the way they present themselves to another horse they perceive as a threat or challenge, or when trying to attract a mare. It’s not however the way they move naturally at other times, and they won’t do it under saddle if trained and ridden correctly. So it’s interesting what you say about your horse ‘breaking’ lower down at liberty but flexing at the poll when ridden…
The term ‘mitbah’ actually refers to the junction of the head with the neck. I’ve searched high and low in the literature and references to it are pretty scarce…it is sometimes rendered as ‘madhbah’ and translated as ‘the place where the throat is cut’ (i.e. goats, sheep and camels – not horses!). However I’ve been unable to confirm this as I can’t find it in any of my Arabic dictionaries – perhaps some Arabic speaker out there can provide more info?? 
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 11:07:03 PM
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Dressage has become a sport as it was originally developed to show the skills of war horses in Medieveal times. The Piaffe, Passage, and to some extent, the 'Airs Above the Ground' are all extreme forms of what was taught to warhorses when the fighting got rough, the rider could call on his mount for a bit of extra 'horsepower' as it were.
I'll quit with the trivia now...I have a wonderful capacity for storing useless facts!!
Emma xx |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 08:57:49 AM
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| Does anyone of you know of a good and recommended classical dressage trainer in the sussex area? The website one of you mentioned earlier need a signup/membership fee paid before you can access the trainer list which I find annoying as I'd like to try things out before I join anything. So, relying on you guys - any recommendations? |
West Sussex |
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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 08:59:54 AM
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I'm a bit surprised (perhaps I shouldn't be) that the theme of 'WB bashing' has arisen. Yes I am questioning the dominance of a particular breed/type in dressage. If that's seen as being anti-WB then I am sorry, it merely comes from being pro-arab but does being pro one thing makes you anti another? I would say not. I just think it's such a shame that a certain type of horse dominates the top levels of dressage when other breeds and types can give the rider such a beautiful light, responsive ride. Shoot me down if I'm wrong but it seems to me that lightness/responsiveness comes naturally to an arab where I don't think it does so easily to a large horse. You can probably tell large horses (of any breed) are not really my scene.just my preference and no offence to anyone!
My thoughts were prompted by attending a lecture/demo the other night by Charles de Kunffy, interesting that he was mentioned in a couple of the contributions.
I've spotted the Gerd Hauschmann on Amazon and will be adding it to my basket! and will be searching for Racinet explains Baucher so thanks for the tips. Zareeeba I have checked out your website already:-)
Can anyone post a link to the youtube video of the riding at Golega?
thanks all!!
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Edited by - DoriBee on 10 Sep 2008 09:22:15 AM |
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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 09:01:23 AM
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| shah I will pm you in case it's seen as advertising |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 09:32:05 AM
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| Julian Marczak is in Ashurst in West Sussex and is a good classical dressage instructor - I'll come with you if you like Shah. He has the advantage of being very charming too - he doesn t do shouting! However I am a bit of a tart and use more than one dressage instructor as they all have something to offer.. |
   
West Sussex |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 09:58:27 AM
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Apologies if I have missed certain points, but i'll explain where i'm coming from and then maybe we can stop 'arguing' as we're all singing from the same hymn sheet here...
What gets my back up is holier than thou, standing on a soapbox sweeping generalisations which fill any thread about classical dressage (and i've read a few in my time)... the purists or classicists (whatever you want to call them) are so quick to critisise and put everyone else and their opinions down that I feel I have to defend the average modern dressage rider EVEN THOUGH I TRAIN WITH A CLASSICAL TRAINER!!
There are lots of faults with modern dressage and the way it is judged, but rather than adding fuel to the fire, get out there and do something about it!!!
Why is the sport dominated by the evil crank wearing, draw-rein using WB riders? Because all the classicists stay at home! Why do they stay at home? Because they can't win, because the judges are incapable of judging them - so get out there and join the judges panel - do something about it!!
Also, just as an aside, if Dressage isn't a sport, why do you care if you get a crap mark and don't win? |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 10:12:30 AM
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Well said Pasha! Start the Classical revival (I still don t know the difference though)
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West Sussex |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:00:03 AM
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I'll say now that I have had 3 well known dressage riders/trainers try to ride my little mare...all 3 got off, as she was 'too strong' for them....if they can't cope with the power of a 14.2hh arab, how in hells name can they ride a bigger warmblood..........simple, cos the WB is bred to be big, and ever so slightly thick! If you look at a warmblood's eye, you see no spark, nothing....an arab's eye sparkles back at you, intelligent, and alert.
A WB is bred for 'trainability' in other words, it's there to do as it is told and nothing else!
Emma xx |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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peg
Silver Member
United Kingdom
349 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:05:18 AM
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Pasha wrote:
Why is the sport dominated by the evil crank wearing, draw-rein using WB riders?
Oh, I'm sorry but have to put my penny's worth in here! The above might or might not be the case but could I just say how surprised I was when I competed at Hocon this year to see so many of the professional riders warming their arabs up in drawreins? I compete regularly in dressage where it is forbidden to warm up in any such contraptions. You might say at least people were doing out in the open (at hocon) which is far more honest, but I guess my point is that it's not just 'evil WB riders' that resort to these measures! |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:09:57 AM
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Oh Peg don't get me started!!! I was at a show last year warming up with a stallion owned by a very respected producer who was being cantered and cantered around in endless circles in draw-reins.... I said to my mum at the time - what a shame as he's a beautiful stamp of the breed but surely he doesn't stand a chance as he's so overbent!! How wrong was I? He won!! I watched the class, and at no time was he working through from behind... he was hollow, behind the vertical and going nowhere!  |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:12:27 AM
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Arachnid, I will just pop this quote up for you as although it doesn't go into too much detail, I think it sums up classical riding very well:
"It is opening the lines of communication between horse and rider, listening to the horse, of being very aware of how every move you make means something to the horse, of first being able to ask yourself “what did I do that made the horse do that?” when you didn't get the response you were looking for. There is nothing about “making him do it”. The responsibility lies with you, the rider, to make things comfortable for the horse. That doesn't mean you won't meet resistance or evasion or that you can't use discipline to counter them; the results are achieved through co-operation not coercion"
You can google Classical Dressage and find out loads of really great information, you just have to be a bit thick skinned to take all the critisism
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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 1:31:58 PM
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Thank you Pasha for the quote, and how encouraging for us all to know that we are all working toward our goals using
classical horsemanship. I count myself as extremely fortunate to have the assistance of Robert Pring,who studied under the tutorship of Franz Rockowansky head rider for the Spanish Riding School, for 10yrs.
I am afraid that Dressage is suffering from the same problems as the show scene, owners who are only interested in winning. All we can hope is that our classical masters make themselves available to us inorder that we can continue
to show the results achieved by correct training. Super thread |
   
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 10:12:18 PM
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Re Golega , the video is of the speed test, not the standard working equitation the 5th video down on the bar of thumbnail pics on the right ... Golega 2007 1min33secs by likkebianca is worth watching! As are vids of the standard W E if anyone knows how to load them up ... sorry complete technophobe !!
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 11 Sep 2008 05:10:02 AM |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:25:27 PM
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For those who would like to have a go at Classical Riding rather than than BD, we only have CRC tests at our shows, we have the young horse beginners test, a great start only walk and trot, through to more advanced work. We decided right from the start when we set up Ridden Arab Group Wales that we wanted a classical riding ethos and are a group member of the CRC, it has attracted people who wouldn't normally enter dressage classes, just ordinary riders who aspire to harmony with their horse.
Mandy
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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