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BabsR
Platinum Member
 England
2790 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 3:54:38 PM
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Call me an antiquated old codger who does not have a clue what I am talking about and with no vision of future marketing forces regarding
the breeding of Pedigree Anglo Arabs....but as long as I have a voice I will strongly resent the introduction of an Anglo Arab Part11
section within the Anglo Arab Stud Book. I care not, (as I am contunually told by the `pro Anglo Arab 11 supporters)that Anglo Arab 11 can never become a Pure Bred Anglo) To agree to this will, in the long term, bring about the demise of the Pedigree Anglo Arab, which is a pure breed in it`s own right!! For the sake of clarification, an Anglo Arab 11 is a PART BRED ARAB!! for which we have a Part Bred Arab Register.
If memberts of the British Public choose to go abroad and purchase
a horse which is not accepted within the various EU Studbooks
for want of lacking in `purity`, then why should we allow our Anglo Arab Stud Book to enter these `part-breds` and call them Anglo Arab Will we soon, be asking Weatherbys to accept Thoroughbred Part 11 pages into The General Stud Book ?? How can one justify a breed which may only contain a small amount of Arab bloodlines, and otherwise wholly consists of Continental breeding to then call these horses Anglo Arabs? Why should we be forced to alter our Stud Books!! I have read all the arguments for and against.........and I will stand very firmly for my belief and NEVER accept PART BRED WHATEVER, TO BE ALLOWED ENTRY IN OUR STUD BOOKS,
All the Breed Society`s in this Country, recognise part bred breeding
and have Part Bred Registers to record the bloodlines of same.
Can someone enlighten me......if we open our Anglo Arab Stud Book to
allow the entry of Part 11 and owners subsequently enter their breeding stock.....for arguments sake, would they then advertise them
at stud, or for sale as ANGLO ARAB11 or ANGLO ARAB which to the general public is far more confusing than.. ANGLO ARAB or PART BRED ARAB
I for one, can see no benefit whatsoever, except to add to the coffers of the Arab Horse Society, as is, when the percentage for registration of Part Bred Arabs, was reduced to 12.1/2%. Most other
British Breed Societies only accept a 25%minimum, (or has that also changed)?
When and only when, the Arab Horse Society allow ARAB PART 11 PAGES
within the PURE ARAB STUD BOOK, will I admit defeat, in my endeavor to safeguard my chosen breed of horse, the Pedigree Anglo Arab
I have to admit complete ignorance on matters regarding the EU and politics. However, we could not be forced into accepting the euro as our currency.....so why can we be forced into changing our stud books??
As a dedicated breeder of Pedigree Anglo Arabs for almost forty years now, I will continue to fight to prevent the demise of this very bold and performance orientated breed. LEAVE OUR STUD BOOK ALONE!!
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Edited by - BabsR on 29 Aug 2008 10:47:08 PM
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Di Ellis
Silver Member
United Kingdom
415 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 4:09:39 PM
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Well said - I totally agree with you as I could not see the sense of having a separate section of the Anglo-Arab either. We seem to be bullied by the AHS to accept the situation and only true Anglo breeders appear to be sticking together over this.
You have explained it very well and hopefully we will get more support. |
D.S. Ellis
Somerset
marbonarabians@yahoo.co.uk |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 4:15:51 PM
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Babs
From another antiquated old codger, who bred part breds, I concur with your sentiments entirely. One of the obvious problems "our friends" from across the water have, is that they have no conception of what a part bred Arab is.
Rest assured, two members of the working party being set up by the society, already have a lot of information. As yet, there is no reason to believe that the possible change is a legal requirement. It is up to the society to prove otherwise. We wait with baited breath as to when the first meeting is to be organised. Personally speaking, I feel that this should already have been done, and we should have started the process of unravelling the mess. |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 9:27:10 PM
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Di, I think you have made a very valid point here. Our biggest problem is the fact that the majority of people voting on this issue will be pure-bred people who have no involvement in Anglos. If the voting was restricted to those breeding and owning Anglos there is no doubt that the result would be an overwhelming rejection of any change to the definition of an Anglo Arab as enshrined in our constitution.
As, like mushrooms, we all sit here in the dark, perhaps someone on the working party would be kind enough to let us know when the party starts working.
Jean |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 08:27:04 AM
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Jean
The thought of you sitting in a dark bucket fills me with horror. You are obviously correct with your statement, but even with it being an open vote it has still, in the last fifteen years, been rejected. I assure you as soon as we have word from the AHS to actually get this started, we will get to the bottom of it, and sort it out once and for all. I think fifteen years is long enough in anyones book. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 10:22:37 AM
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| Jean I hope Bob is keeping you company in your dark bucket....can only hope you are sitting comfortably.......you may well be there for a very long time according to the speed in which it has thus far taken to resolve this matter. Never mind.....mushrooms seem to thrive in the dark. Be good!! |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 11:43:53 AM
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Thanks for the laugh ladies, I needed that.
Actually I hadn't thought about this before but yes,every time
we get our heads high enough and think we can see the light, someone
comes along and stamps on them and we have to start again.
How many more times? Keep your sense of humour, you'll sure as
hell need it.
Jean |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 1:55:43 PM
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Fear not ladies, (whoops, sorry and Bob) this time we will not let it drag on. I think it is owed to all members past and present, to resolve this matter once and for all.
The nagging has already started, and will continue until we get a date for the first meeting - what's the betting someone suggests 17 September, when un be known to most pure bred folk, the biggest Anglo and part bred show is taking place.
At the moment, all we can do is laugh - good for the soul, and keeps you young! |
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Pixie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
6586 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 2:05:08 PM
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| keeps you young and gives your face some exercise. Good luck peeps |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 2:09:43 PM
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Sue
Pray tell what is this big Anglo and Part-bred show?
Are there classes for Sports and Drafty horses?
Jean |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 2:22:25 PM
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Tut Tut Tut Jean......you really are deep down in your dark bucket
The big show on 17th September is the Cherif Anglo and Part Bred Arab Ridden Championships....forgive you for not remembering....someone must have stamped on you......hard life for mushrooms |
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Edited by - BabsR on 30 Aug 2008 12:00:26 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 3:30:06 PM
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Might well be classes for Sports and Drafty Part Bred Anglos ??? if our friends overseas force their rules upon us. Come on Pure Bred, Anglo and Part Bred Arab Breeders, lets unite and wholly reject any alteration to the purity of our Stud Books.
Brainteaser for you....guess the percentage of Arab
blood in the following ??
vis.... 
Well..as no one has come up with any guesses...would you believe, they are both 50% Arab. Clearly the filly on the left is out of a
Shire Mare (regd)and sired by a Pure Arab stallion. The filly on the right is a Regd. Anglo Arab Silvamist Rhapsody AASB Vol.X111 1990. Dam:Katja Kabanova AHSB Sire: Sunray Scinnamon (GSB Vol.40)
The ShirexArab Filly was also covered by our Thoroughbred stallion
(twice)and the result was interesting..
she produced a colt and a filly and the pic is of her gelding son who stands 172cm, sadly not registered as a Part Bred Arab.
Why a Shire x Arab? The original Shire Mare was owned by an elderly Shire breeder, who wanted to improve the quality of his bloodline...the idea being to then cross the result (if a filly and she was) back to Shire again, covering any fillies from those matings in future generations, always back to a Shire stallion. Unfortunately, he died before he had chance to cover the mare above, and she, Gemima, was willed to his niece, who subsequently used our Thoroughbred, Sunray Scinnamon, as she did not wish to continue her Uncles dream.
I do have all the registered detail of the Shire Dam and the Pure Arab stallion, but unfortunately they are in my archive files and as yet, have not been able to turn them up.
Placing the pics of the Part Bred Arab gelding and the Anglo Arab Filly alongside each other...
I think it would be very easy to recognise which is the Anglo and which the Part Bred Arab. In support of the Part Bred Arab, I have to say, there are equally as many good competition PBA`s in all spheres of Equestrianism, the great TAMARILLO, being the most well known current ambassador, flying the flag for Part Bred Arabs.
I simply choose the Anglo Arab, as I have found a consistency in `type` (there can be throwbacks, and a few surprises with part arab breeding) The size and scope of the Thoroughbred and the hardiness and good temperament of the Arab, have over our many years of breeding, proved worthwhile and a very rewarding (if not in terms of finance) hobby.
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Edited by - BabsR on 30 Aug 2008 12:01:45 PM |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 4:11:11 PM
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I haven't a clue what this large show is - I'm staying at home with a large glass of vino! Over our dead "bods" would we have drafty or sporty horses - we also do not cater for beach volley ball. Mind you, some of the chaps are quite fit. It's a thought.
Love the brain teaser...will get the books out, and come back with the answer. Is the one on the left from Section 11?!!  |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 4:18:33 PM
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Ok - here goes!!!!
I'm a pure bred breeder and also have few PART breds that I've bred (Arab x Cleveland Bay [then back to Arab] and Arab x Caspian). I bred them as PART breds deliberately and in the full knowledge that they were PART breds.
To me ANGLO Arabs are a very special mixture of Thoroughbred x Arab. I've never bred one but it is an ambition to either breed or own one (after all Evie needs that Olympic horse and I'm determined it will be either pure or ANGLO).
I don't specialise in crossing the Arabs out to other breeds so I would never dare to say I'm an expert. But I do have an opinion.
Anglos are Anglos
Part Breds are Part Breds
Why lump them all together? What's the benefit?
If I'm looking to breed or buy, then given our current classification, I can get a good idea of what characteristics a horse will have - the trainability of the Arabian mind complements the more stubborn Cleveland, the Cleveland can add height and a little more substance to the smaller Arabian, they are both stamina breeds. The cross is a PART bred.
If I'm looking for more of a performance horse that thinks more sharply and is trainable once the mutual respect has developed, then I'd look at an ANGLO.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned but as a pure person looking in, the current classification allows me to select and have a mental picture of what Im looking for. If it's all put together, it's going to be so much more confusing.
This isn't meant to offend anyone (and I'm not suggesting Part breds cannot be the performance animals that Anglos are). Just my views and my vote to the AHS was to leave things as they are. |
   www.eviepeel.com    |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 7:15:20 PM
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All joking aside, this is a very serious subject and as an Anglo breeder of many years I would like to thank you, ( and all like minded Pure bred people),for your support & your vote.
You say you are not an expert on the subject but you have grasped the subtle & vital differences in mind - set between the Partbreds & Anglos.
Keep supporting us and I wish you all the best in finding your Anglo for the Olympics (or a really good Partbred like Tamarillo)
Jean
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 12:22:22 PM
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I too am in favour of leaving things as they are.
Just imagine the reaction to the suggestion of Part ll Pure Arabs. But of course there is the differenc between a 'stud book' and a 'register', much easier to 'tamper' with Register status.
Incedentally the Welsh Part Bred Register has gone down to 12 1/2% for acceptance. This has made several of our PBA's out of Riding Pony mares elligible.
Sue.
Breeder of Pure, Part and Anglo Arabs for over 35 years so hope I have a balanced viewpoint. |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 4:32:39 PM
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Exactly Sue...The Anglo Arab Stud Book is as pure as the Pure Arab Stud Book and the Thoroughbred GSB Stud Book. Providing an Anglo Arab`s Parentage is registered in the GSB, then offspring can be likewise recorded as Thoroughbreds at Weatherbys. Stanley Grange Stud are advertising a NEW Thoroughbred Stallion at stud for 2008 (the Regd. Anglo Arab Dolphin Supreme).........that is proof of how pure an Anglo Arab is as the GSB stud books are some 300 years old.
The ancestors of today`s Thoroughbred as we know it, were in fact Arabs, the Godolphin Arabian, the Darley Arabian and the Byerely Turk, which were crossed with selected mares known for their speed... and so evolved the Thoroughbred!!
As you say.....imagine a Part 11 Arab or a Part11 Thoroughbred. Established Stud Books cannot be opened to mis-representation and sub division, and must stay as they are.
The various part bred Registers can probably be altered in the requirement for registration as they contain mixtures and crosses of
a wide number of breeds. The Stud Books...NO, otherwise what is the point in having them !! |
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Edited by - BabsR on 30 Aug 2008 5:12:19 PM |
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anadin
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
58 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 6:41:28 PM
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| would love to know who decided that the thoroughbred and arab cross should become a breed in its own right! surely it is a part bred arab and at the same time a part bred thoroughbred! and who picked the first cross to be a thoroughbred, could it not have been any breed crossed with an arab! which would still be just a first cross to an arab! the thoroughbred is a man made breed which makes the anglo a man made breed! then why is there a problem with introducing a new man made breed!!!! at the end of the day the arab is the only purebred! |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 8:10:22 PM
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IMO there is no objection to introducing a new breed but it must have it's own name and definition and not call itself an Anglo Arab which would mean interfering with the breed definition which already exists. As Babs implies the criteria for a 'breed' is having a stud book as opposed to a register.
If the proposers of this change do not wish to establish a 'new breed' then the existing Part-bred register would accommodate them all.
I have bred both Anglos and Part-breds for over forty years and have respect for both, whilst recognising their differences. Having stood an Anglo stallion at stud for many years he was used on many Part-breds but it would never have occurred to me to think of trying to get the offspring in the AA stud book as they went out into the world as proud ambassadors of the Part- bred.
On a personal note having bred and owned Anglos for so many years I resent people taking away my lifetimes work when there is no necessity.
Jean
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 9:57:59 PM
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Beg to differ anadin........The Anglo Arab is the third oldest breed in the World and the third oldest studbook in France. The Arabian and the Thoroughbred came from the same genetic pool. The three original foundation Thoroughbreds, were of Arabian Blood.
In the mid eighteenth century, English Thorougbred mares were imported to the French National Stud and were covered by Arabians. Breeders of Normandy created the Anglo Arabian as early as 1750.
In 1833, an ordenance by Louis Phillips created the French Studbook, where the English Arab and Anglo Arabs could be found. As the Arab, Anglo Arab and Thoroughbred are all of the same genetic pool and the French Stud Book has been in existance since 1833, the Anglo Arab is an established Pedigree Breed in it`s own right. The Anglo Arab contains only fully recorded and Stud Book registered Arabian and Thoroughbred bloodlines and has to be DNA tested as proof of parentage
before it is recorded in the Anglo Arab Stud Book and/or Weatherbys G.S.B.
The Part Bred Arab, does not have to be DNA Parentage tested, for entry into the PBA Register, unless they are going to be used for racing when it then becomes compulsary.
So I guess Louis Phillips was the guy who created the Anglo Arab.... a Pedigree Breed in it`s own right, and known throughout the world as a competition horse of great excellence. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 10:20:36 PM
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Agree with you Jean and very much resent my whole lifes work dedicated to the breeding of Anglo Arabs and my established bloodlines, being wasted and very strongly object to the interference of our Stud Book.  |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 09:17:52 AM
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Got to say i did not fully understand what this constitution was at first, but i guess what the breeders of anglo arabs are saying is they do not oppose it if another name is used, ie: not anglo arab!
I personally breed pba and am VERY proud of them, i suppose its all down to what is more important to you, retaining pure breeding, or opening up new doors and introducing other breeds which gives you more diversity in producing the british sports horse. I honestly think we should not knock anyone elses preferences as in reality we are all in search of the same! its the bloodlines that carry the talent at the end of the day whatever the breed or type. |
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Edited by - vjc on 31 Aug 2008 10:09:58 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 3:00:17 PM
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| Would anyone like to guess the year when the last Anglo, won a group one classic race in this country? |
Edited by - Lynda on 31 Aug 2008 3:00:56 PM |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 3:07:19 PM
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My gut feeling is that the British registry should maintain its own integrity and that an Anglo should be an Anglo, not a partbred. But I'm not a breeder and I seem to remember some discussion on this subject that suggested the AHS had already agreed to this in principle because of pressure, and that it was going to be all but impossible not to concur with Europe/the French. That discussion also suggested only 19 Anglos had been registered that year in the UK and that we shouldn't be making such a fuss about such a minority!
My comment about this new thread is, what will people expect if they see an Anglo Arab advertised in Horse and Hound on any other sales marketplace?
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 3:39:26 PM
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Verena...have noted your comments. The Anglo Arab Breeders of this Country would not object to the AHS introducing another `breed` which could encompass Sport Horses of Part Bred Arab Bloodlines!! (PBA Sport Horse Stud Book) and become established as a `Breed` .....NOT WITHIN THE PAGES OF THE ANGLO ARAB STUD BOOK AND CALLED ANGLO ARAB11
As a register, it would be easier to make the PBAR a Stud Book,
as we already have Part1 and Part11 Part Bred Arabs recorded in that register. Part11 PBA`s have to be DNA (and parentage proven before they can race under jockey club rules)? I think...and stand corrected if I am wrong. Certainly think this suggestion would make more sense
and more easily clarify the differences between a Part Bred Arab and an Anglo Arab.
Some years back, the National Pony Society introduced the BRITISH RIDING PONY STUD BOOK (BRPSB) and provided Breeding Stock fullfilled the criteria, their offspring could be entered in the BRPSB. This has proved very successful and the British Riding Pony is now getting established as an acknowledged Breed in it`s own right.
With regard to your comment re Sport Horse Breeding...such a Register (or is it Stud Book) already exists, so why cannot such PBA bred Sport Horses enter that already established Register/Stud Book??
As Breeders, we must fight to protect our pedigree bloodlines, as I am sure Pure Bred Arab Breeders, would be at war with the AHS if it was suggested they allow other than a 100% pure Arab into the AHSB
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Edited by - BabsR on 31 Aug 2008 7:13:00 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 4:49:23 PM
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Babs
Both Sue and I totally agree with your comments regarding Anglos, and we bred Part-breds who would most probably be accepted into the so called Anglo section 11, as our foundation mare had one cross of Lipizzaner in her third generation. Interestingly enough, when we eventually received her papers from Yugoslavia, the stamp stated Anglo Arab, but as she had blood other than Arab and Thoroughbred, she was inspected by Lady Anne Lytton, Cecil Covey and Rosemary Archer, and then accepted as a Part-bred.
I can't understand why the Part breds can not have a stud book instead of a register, and yes you are absolutely right regarding the PBA part 11.
My reason for asking the question regarding the Anglo winning a classic race, was because Anglos were being bred in the U.K. and registered in the main body of the GSB. They did not have a separate section like the Pure breds.
The answer is a filly named Lilias (later Babel) who won The Oaks in 1826, and both Lilias and her Dam were GSB registered. France may well have had the first Anglo stud book, but surely being in the GSB is as important, if not more? |
Edited by - Lynda on 01 Sep 2008 12:20:15 PM |
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