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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:13:26 PM
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Well i must say i am incredibly saddened by the kennel clubs stance on addressing the issues brought up by the tv researchers. Though only a small showcase of breeds were examined it has definiteley raised the issue on how breed standards have become warped since the 2nd world war, i feel thankfull that i can still find photos of our chosen breed in their natural habitat so have a direct comparison and like alot of other pastoral breeds the standard is calling for shorter dogs with shorter muzzles, thicker coats and a tighter tail curl  rather than the long legged and muzzled, rough shaggy coat and tail with a relaxed curl.
At the end of the day the kennel club will not change unless forced by public pressure so maybe it is time for pressure to be put on them. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:19:09 PM
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I have just watched this and don't think it was in any way sensationalised. I had a beagle years ago, bought out of pity that had a greatly overshot top jaw and by the age of two had developed very bad problems in his spine /hips.
My uncle had a cavalier given to him as a christmas present on his retirement, turned out to be one with the major heart defects known within the breed.
I could go on but others eg Zan has already made the point.
Bitches are seen as cash cows, and yet they (breeders) all cry poverty that they make nothing from breeding. What sort of maths did they learn at school? 4 registerable litters of, with large breeds, 8 to 10 puppies, at £400 per puppy, a much better prospect after a 9 week gestation and 6 weeks to weaning than the 18 months for a single foal!
And one Cavalier had sired 26 litters after being diagnosed with an inherited brain disease that causes pain? 26 stud fees more attractive than the future well being of the resulting offspring.
As part of Joe Public I am sickened |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:31:40 PM
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Well I watched it and I have to say I don't think either side came across well. I nearly turned over when they likened dog breeding to the nazis, but managed not to! The RSPCA vet was true to form and did not impress me by calling cherished animals "freaks" regardless of the circumstances. This is not a term I would ever use when refering to beloved animals. The problem is the RSPCA and the Kennel Club get tied up in their own politics and in doing so completely lose the point. The Kennel Club representatives were sadly complete buffoons. When the slant moved away from the rights and wrongs of showing and actually focused on how to move forward and solve some of the problems I felt the tone improved. I thought the GSDs did move awfully and the situation in Kings Charles seems to be shrouded in secrecy and politics which does sadly happen. The poor boxer fitting had me in tears and I have to say I would think long and hard about keeping him alive, however the argument about breeding for showing and health problems being intertwined did not hold true in this case because as lovely as he was he was neither an extreme nor correct example of the breed. I do think the Kennel Club should make health testing compulsory - at the end of the day they award the CCs and therefore have the greatest power. They should withold prizes from ill/unsound animals. The breeders scheme they run is a joke and the breeders I know that are on it breed more litters per year than is necessary to keep their showing hobby going and are known within the breed as the "puppy farmers"! I was shocked to see that the Rhodesian Ridgeback crowd are still in the dark ages - culling unwanted puppies did used to happen many years ago (whites in boxers) but is seriously frowned upon now and no caring breeder would ever consider doing this - I am worn out by so much ignorance on both sides and I am now going to bed.
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Edited by - Maramoo on 19 Aug 2008 10:35:11 PM |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:35:58 PM
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Breeder being honest here:
1St litter
5 bitches @ £725
2 dogs @ £675 = £4975 - £105 for microchipping, £48 for food, £84 kc reg, £45 collective vet check left me with just under £4700.
I can't take into account the costs of the stud and bitch as they are part of our family.
4th Litter
3 bitches & 1 dog @ £750 = 3500, dog was bred specially for family dreinds for no fee - so minus £750, caesarian section & spay £605, kc reg £48, food £34.99, microchip £60, so i was still left with about £2k.
Though the last litter caused my bitch to be in physical danger so we decided we would not breed again (hence the spaying and it was optional). Breeders would not breed if there was no money to be made all that is asked is that they breed responsibly from healthy parents within a healthy environment, so you got it in a nutshell pat. |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:40:02 PM
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| sorry i cant count 500 too much on last litter. |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:44:06 PM
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Rosie...JRT are now a recognised breed and as such have a breed standard with the KC...my little old man was turned down as a stud dog as he wasn't a leggy one..he's a little rough coated furby mutt, and is now 14 years old, has survived a house fire, and has dodgy legs (mild stroke after the house fire) but that don't stop him..he's sired only 3 litters of pups...not for looks or anything like that...but cos he is a loveable rogue of a family dog...and is as happy as anything.
here's the little monster..looking innocent!
and my gorgeous Fudge (collie x lurcher)
Emma xx |
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eclipse
New Member
Scotland
21 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:48:23 PM
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i am also a boxer enthusiast. i have 2 at the moment and have had another that has passed away. rocky who passed away had epilepsy, tyson we are on borrowed time with as he has cardiomyopathy and the worst case of spondilosis our vet had ever seen and rambo is deaf. am i unlucky three times?? i think not! there are terrible problems that have been bred into the current lines whether intentional or not. i have researched these genetic problems and am a scientist with a good knowledge of genetics and diseases.
perhaps the programm was not put across in the most fair way but i find it also unfair that people are so easy to disregard the scientific evidence to justify their own breeding practices.
as for the culling yes the boxer has moved on and (most) no longer cull the whites but they are still not allowed to be shown.
i also have a chihuahua x chinese crested and (touchwood) he is the healthiest dog i have ever had! |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:49:41 PM
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I lost £200 on my last litter . We had eight healthy puppies 5 coloured and 3 whites. Last pup got stuck so we required veterinary intervention at the birth (out of hours of course!)One pup became seriously ill aged 5 weeks and needed surgery and hospitalisation - we did everything for him, but sadly he died  (bill in excess of £1500). We had to give one pup back to the breeder of our bitch as she was on terms and we kept a pup ourselves. If things go well I am sure you can make some money, but it costs well in excess of £100 for me to go to show with my girls - I really and honestly do not breed for the money. I have had one litter so far and we are expecting another in September. I do not sleep for the first two days because I live every moment of it with my girl, but I would not change it for the world.
The animal rights movement can get ridiculously sanctimonious - a girl who comes to our training class had a male and a female boxer-they had an accident and the bitch became pregnant - unplanned and a very difficlut time for the girl - well she would have certainly got less disapproving looks and responses had she had 5 snotty nosed kids all living off the social in a cramped bedsit! Yes it was an accident and unplanned, but she did the right thing-raised the pups well and found them loving homes. |
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 12:09:02 AM
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Lots of shouting back at the telly with this on tonight... Demon pound signs apparently triumphing over common sense and responsibility in come cases
BUT I am pleased to add my Chavvy Cavvy Mr Bumble's brain is definitely NOT too big for his skull  though his eyes are bigger than his belly at times 
(here he is picnic-monitoring at Malvern - V important job that  )
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- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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aderyn
Gold Member
Wales
846 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 02:12:26 AM
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Must admit I watched some of it - but offend or plase what got me the most is the bird who had won the championship with her Cavalier - rfusing point blank on camera to admit that he had what ever it was that cav;s are getting - why? Because she would lose thousands by doing do so - selfish bitch - responsible owner no!!! The rest of the programme a lot of propoganda and scare mongering - I have 2 pedigree dogs - Great Danes - one is not of good pedigree is as tough as old boots and afraid of nothing - the other from a very very highly respectable breeder - whom I have absolutely no problem with she breeds once yearly and is extremely responsible and her dogs welfare is her priority - however due to the closeness of the breeding my bitch is very very hghly strung and has been since a puppy - very neurotic and is not an ideal candidate to promote the breed - she cost me an absolute fortune just to be a pet - I could breed from her and sell the pups for well in excess of £1000 each due to her pedigree but due to her disposition - I wont do so because unless I can find an outcross so far removed from her that would complement all her wonderful qualities and unless I could guarantee that I would find homes for the puppies and Danes even on the first litter have at least 10 - no thanks she can say as she is and be loved to death and live the life of luxury. Another storm in a tea cup.
Nick |
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Icarus
Junior Member
England
40 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 07:09:58 AM
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Absolutely disgusted after watching BBC Expose!
Those poor dogs filmed clearly suffering, should have been put out of their misery a long time ago. I agree that a point has to made, but that was sick.
I am a small Basset hound breeder myself and would never inbreed my dogs at all. The judge talking about basset hounds at a show didnt have a clue! Hounds are hunting dogs and the ears are long so they trail along the ground lifting the scent, the loose skin traps and holds the scent!
Cavalier breeders that were shown on the programme really showed themselves up! especially the woman whos dog was diagnoed with the condition and then went onto use her dog at stud to a further 26 litters!!!!!
Kennel Club reaction through out the programme saddened me, i wonder if they will lose members now anyway?
Just my opinion folks |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 08:09:12 AM
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HiEmma,
loved your pics.
Thanks for letting me know that the JRT is now a recognised breed - I didn't realise.
I agree with what everyone else is saying - awful practices going on.
Lisa |
     
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 08:44:38 AM
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| well the media sure know how to cause a stir!!! i was concerned for the german shepherd as we have owned three over the past years and none of them had hind quarters that almost sat down!!!! they are a breed that suffer with their hind legs later in life (ataxia) so why on earth would anyone want to make it even more difficult for them! maramoo your boxers are fab and look so healthly, do you show them? i think after much consideration and watching the programme perhaps its the kennel club who is to blame here! and unknowledgeable /unscrupious breeders! it doe`snt matter what animal you breed you have a moral duty to look after its future welfare!!! |
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emma
Gold Member
816 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 10:12:12 AM
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Firstly just to clarify that as far as i know the Jack Russel is not a registered breed with the KC. However the Parson Jack Russel (the longer leg variety)is. The Parson Jack Russel is a breed meant to accompany a rider while out hacking etc hence the need for longer legs. I believe other countries such as Australia do recognise the Jack Russel and the Parson Jack Russel as 2 seperate breeds but here in the Uk its only the Parson that is recognised.
With regards to the program:
As someone whose Grandad lost his entire family in the war i was disgusted when the comparison was made with the Nazis, completely inappropriate i felt.
I agree with Maramoo that neither side were shown at their best. I did feel that it did give rather a blanket impression that any pedigree dog is affected by selective breeding etc etc and would probably put some dog people off for life. It would appear that certain breeds have more issues than others.
On a personal level we have always had pedigree boxers, none of which have died from hereditary problems. Our dog is currently 12 yrs old and yes he is showing it but you wouldnt tell him that he still has the get up and go he has always had. The breeder he came from did infact have to stop breeding and start from scratch some years ago due to discoverying her dogs carried a genetic disorder despite the fact that her dogs were all big champions, so there are responsible breeders and breed clubs out there.
The comment was made that only one breed, the Irish Setter had tests that had to be passed before the dog could be used for breeding. My understanding was that the labrador had to be hip and eye scored and only if certain points were attained could offspring of that dog be accepted into the KC register. Obviously inferior dogs can still be used for breeding but if puppies can not be registered then puppies are worth less money than those with a pedigree and so i would think that this would encourage most breeders to breed from the dogs that will fetch higher prices while also insuring higher quality of dogs. Im fairly sure there are other breeds that implement this system too? I thought the GSD did too but having seen last nights footage perhaps not?
The comment made on here about breeders selling brothers and sisters together, yes i can see what you are saying but agian a bit of a blanket statement. Ive known many people who have bought pairs of puppies and none have bred them together but instead have had a pair of playful puppies who have gone on to be great friends and companions.
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Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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Edited by - emma on 20 Aug 2008 10:28:18 AM |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 10:21:55 AM
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I must admit programme did shock me a bit, as I was alot more ignorant than I thought.
However some of it did appear to be over sensationalist, ie the eugenics/nazi bit with regard to dog breeding...
But if true, I was horrified re the culling of ridgeless ridgebacks and the top show dogs that were to me, unhealthy examples of their breeds. Surely the health of the dog should be included in the breed standard, eg must be able to walk and breathe properly and without pain...
Also thought the woman with the top cav that knew it had that brain thing who kept breeding from it was awful - but how can this be the best of breed as it does not bode well for the future of the breed  |
    
Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 10:48:34 AM
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We watched the programe and found the similaritys with breeding arabians frightenly close.
We have always had pedigree dogs. Bull Mastiffs and Standard Poodles . Each breed had problems as has been dicussed. Each breed did not live to a great life expectancy. Especially our lovely Bull Mastiff. After getting our first cross bred dog,I can only say we have a dog with so much charm, health and life, I will never ever go back to a pedigree dog again.
I don't blame individual breeders just our perception of what our shows are requiring. If a judge awards a pedigree dog with a congenital problem first prize at Crufts, who is to blame, the breeder or the judge?
Any programe that highlights the publics demand for beauty whether its in dogs or horses can only rattle cages and is some ways do good. IMO.
It is the public who want beauty, they want the label pedigree, they want the status of being bred by so and so, they want the prizes........if they didn't then breeders would not continue to breed these dogs with problems, or so it seems to me.
We are a world obsessed with beauty. Look at the face lift programes, no one, or no animal must be ugly, we all need to be perfect and pretty. (I wish)
I certainly would not breed a horse that had a congenital fault or had a temperament fault.
It is obvious the breed standards have changed in a lot of these animals. As it seems to have for Arabian Horses.
Who decides on the breed standard? who changed it? why did they change it?
Or were the paintings of those dogs so bad years ago we just want to improve on them now. Is present day improving on those animals a good thing or not. This is what I understood the programe to be about.
This debate will rattle on and on, I just hope some good comes out of it.
The Arabian breed must not hide, as it allows intense inbreeding to fix a type........interesting stuff.
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:04:54 AM
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I did not see the programme but I did see the programme being discussed on GMTV this morning. The woman from the Kennel Club was worse than useless, she only appeared once so I think she knew she wasn't putting their point across and disclined to be further interviewed.
I must say that I thought the vet was VERY irresponsibly when she said that if it was up her to ALL DOGS WOULD BE MONGRELS!!!!!!!! |
    
Hampshire |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:11:11 AM
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I had a little lad, before Fudhe, who was registered as a Miniature Schnauzer...only prob was he was a half inch too big at the shoulder for the breed standard. He was Reserve Puppy of the Year and his litter brother won Puppy of the Year at Crufts...Max had a string of wins and places in the showring before we got him as a rescue dog, Lady who had owned him for 5 years had a stroke and her hubby was recovering from heart attack, so they reluctantly decided to let him go. He came to us 'temporarily' and stayed till his death at 19! Only thing he had was a recurring kidney problem when he got to 15/16 but that was manged by the vet, and he died peacefully at home in his sleep.
These little dogs are great, and seem to be free of the curse of inbreeding....and emma...my boy is a registered Parsons....just a shorty pants version!
Emma xx |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:18:58 AM
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i watched the last 20 mins-was very angry about the lady Nick mentioned!
very sad though, and scary!
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pagey |
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DoriBee
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
129 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:19:28 AM
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I just picked this off the kennel club's own website from the GSD breed standard(sorry heavily edited as can't italicize/bold the bits I want to, no intention to mislead anyone):
General Appearance
...far-reaching, enduring gait...working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty.
Characteristics
... working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration...resilient and tireless...
Hindquarters
Overall strong...enabling effortless forward propulsion of whole body... hock strong. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters reduces firmness and endurance.
If you saw last night's programme and compare with the GSDs actually being favoured in the show ring - do you think the above was what you saw? Yet there was a judge claiming these poor things with deformed back ends conformed with the breed standard.
This post is not a pop at GSDs or their connections - it's just one example of the hypocrisy/denial that appears to exist for many breeds at all levels in the dog world - from the Kennel Club to the breed societies and the breeders themselves. Surely the KC can and must do more to ensure health and temperament come before all cosmetic considerations?
I agree the programme was rather sensational but applaud it all the same - if the kennel Club can't or won't do something, then the next best thing must be to alert the general public so that they can, if they wish, put pressure on the breeders by being far more choosy who they take a puppy from!
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:23:38 AM
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not sure as I see anything wrong with the vets comments about mongrel dogs given out crossing is the best way to improve any breed of animal, horse, cat, dog, sheep etc.
Any one with an A level in biology should know this.
Personally I think the show Arab world is a fair way down the line to creating freaks, with the current trend for type and extravagant action and posing horses in unnatural positions. As for not breeding from horse freaks who are we trying to kid are you all forgetting the US mare with the heavily abnormal face?#
If I had my way showing would be banned to be replaced by grading where there are no winners only those not up to standard. I would chuck that abomination by Peter Upton that the AHS has on its site out the window. Not too many problems with the text but the drawings are pure fantasy and people are trying to create it.....
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Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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Edited by - Dot on 20 Aug 2008 11:24:22 AM |
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marionpack
Gold Member
England
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:24:56 AM
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| After watching this programme and having shown dogs (not bred) for the past 15 years, some of these faults may not come to light until the dog is about 4 or 5 years old, for example epilepsy, once the desease has come to light the dog doesn't get bred from, unfortunately in those first years many progeny have been born so the desease has already spread, I know you do get many bad breeders, but you also get a lot who are trying to erradicate known deseases in their particular breed |
Berkshire
   
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 11:32:46 AM
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I too was shocked by what I saw and heard from the breeders and judges I was equally shocked by the kennel club response to the problems, in the past I have lost one dog to heart failier. a Ridgeback, one to a blood disorder, a Rotti, another a standard poodle , to liver cancer, all before they were 5 years old each time I broke my heart over the loss of what I think of as a family member I have 4 daxi's now and pray they will be ok and live normal and long lives, (one I have had for 12 years ) but I will think about getting a good old mutt in the future |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 12:19:29 PM
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Emma there's currently no requirement by the KC for labradors or any other breed to be hip & eye tested before used for breeding.
A quick look through the last 12mths of records at work shows
1 heart test
0 eye tests
4 hip dysplasia scores
1 elbow displasia score
This is a very tiny number compared to the number of dogs registered who have produced litters. Testing is definitely rare in this region.
We have performed more Ceasarian sections(11) than health scores.
Unfortunately I think we will see a significant rise in pedigree dogs with congenital disorders in this practice due to the recent opening of a "pedigree dog superstore" 3 miles away. Yesterday I spoke to a new puppy owner who had gone in to purchase a bag of food & came out with a 10 weeks old Old English Sheepdog.
One of our receptionists has gained a Cocker Spaniel puppy in her household due to her son going to "have a look".
There is no vetting of owners' suitability & joe public is not bothered that they cannot view the parents.
Anything therefore that raises awareness of inherited diseases & how to best avoid them is a good thing.
The pain of congenital diseases is felt not only by the puppy as he grows but by their (usually) devoted family. I run the cardiology clinic, which involves very frequent bereavement counselling. The majority of our patients are of the same 2 dog breeds & 3 cat breeds. |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 12:54:45 PM
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I watched the beginning and then chickened out. I was quite horrified by owners that were prepared to let their "beloved" pet suffer. Sometimes we must break our own hearts for the good of our animals.
As has been said many defects do not manifest themselves until it is too late but in my experience and fromthe breeders I know when these problems are realised breeding fromthese lines is curtailed if not stopped altogether.
I bred Siamese for many many years but have now stopped. I had a policy that if a problem arose in a litter none of that litter were sold for breeding and dependent on the nature of the problem neither were the parents used again.
The kennel club would do well to have a non active register, giving breeders a chance to state whether their puppies can be bred from. Of course this does not stop the unscrupulous but it is step in the right direction.
Yvonne
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