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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 12:51:48 PM
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Panorama tonight is doing an "exposé" on the genetic problems found in many breeds of pedigree dogs. From what I heard on R4, it sounds as if the whole thing is going to be sensationalised (I can't imagine that any caring dog owner is in ignorance of the situation), and that "inbreeding" (regardless of the situation) is going to be made bogeyman of the month (well, it is the silly season...). There were even quotes from Steve Jones the respected genetic scientist (which I really hope were taken out of context) denouncing inbreeding.
I definitely don't condone fad or irresponsible breeding of any species, but the way the programme was presented on R4 makes it sound as if the intention of the programme maker was to whip up hysteria about "inbreeding" without a rational discussion of the subject. As Arab breeders, we should take notice of this as there will almost certainly be a spin-off which may well affect us. Sigh....
Keren
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 1:05:06 PM
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I saw this on the BBC news this morning - 'many pedigree dogs live a life of pain and suffering'. Hummm I thought as I looked at my three mutts (pedigree Wirehaired Dachshund, pedigree Tibetan Terrier and pedigree Scottie) - one was rolling around on his back shadow boxing, one sprawled on the sofa and one bouncing at my ankles excited because it was a brand new day. They definitely looked like they were living in pain and suffering... not.
I agree that irresponsible breeding is to be condemned 100% but sensationalising the issue doesn't help either. The vast majority of pedigree dogs are happy and healthy creatures. |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 1:16:01 PM
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my pedigree whippet is fine, although sometimes a bit whacky  i can remember some time back there was a lot of talk re the breeding of boxers and bulldogs regarding how inverted their noses where due to selected breeding and that it was affecting their breathing, i also think some said the german sheperds where being bred with an unatural angle to their back legs which causes major problems in later life. i will watch just out of interest. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 1:17:31 PM
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I just took a look at the 'Joe Public' comments on the BBC website, and frankly, it is scary the lack of knowledge being demonstrated there regarding "pedigree" animals. Maybe a few AL-ers would like to add a few more balanced comments?
Keren |
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navaho621
Gold Member
Wales
510 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 1:57:15 PM
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Opening a can of worms if you ask me. There will always be arguements for both sides. Personally i dont agree with the breeding of dogs willy nilly (regardless of being inbred or not), i worked in a rescue kennels for several years, & being in West Wales im sure you can all appreciate the number of ex-breeding bitches bought in to us, many in really appalling condition as once they could no longer breed they were no longer needed & i suppose in alot of cases no longer cared for. I have no problem with responsible breeders who genuinely care where their pups are sold to, & bother to ensure that the dog & bitch they choose to use are the best they can find. Another thing that bugs me is the recent craze for crossbred dogs & selling them for really silly money, & in some cases more than you could buy a pedigree animal for, totally crazy, but that is another story!
Vjc, i actually went to view some white German Sheppard pups with a friend a few years ago & i was horrified at some of these dogs, i cant even begin to explain how bad there backs were, they were like ski slopes, with the legs very hunched..you needed to see to believe it. And these were dogs being bred from, i cant imagine they would have had a very long life span, needless to say we walked away! |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 2:07:54 PM
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| I think that as a breeder i would hope that others are responsible though sadly as having links with the rvc and sammy rescue i know that there are many who are'nt. Generally the irresponsible bunch buy a puppy with the sole intent of it being a cash cow that is why as a responsible breeder you should apply breeding restrictions on the dogs registration and re - iterate it on the contract of sale, without this it is void. Another action is to include a not for resale or change of ownership clause, it can be legally binding, a very sad and current example is an owner we are pursuing details can be found on epupz under find a puppy Samoyed. Education of prospective owners as to why they should not be buying unregistered dogs is also a must, i wonder if this will come up in the programme and the fact that there are many breeders who will sell litter mates of opposite sexes i think we all know what the intention of that would be. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 2:43:19 PM
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I can't comment on the programme or watch it because I don't have a tv, but I can comment on the state of pedigree dogs today because I have had hundreds through my hands, both as rescues and as boarders, and there is no doubt most breeds are riddled with health problems.It is by no means only dogs bred by back yard breeders either---very expensive dogs bred from "quality" show lines.In fact in some cases these are the worst because the breeders are breeding for a win in the ring, with no thought for temperament or health---breeding litters to produce "the one" that will bring them glory while the others are sold to unsuspecting pet homes.
It is unusual these days to find a labrador or a GSD that doesn't have hip dyplasia, OCD in the elbow,skin problems or all three. Boxers and Cavaliers with heart problems and epilepsy.Dachsunds getting slipped discs because of the ridiculous length of their backs ombined with short legs. Bulldogs with terrible skin problems who all need to give birth by caesarian because of the size of the puppies' heads, and narrowness of bitches' pelvises.
Actually I could go on and on and on .Genetic eye problems, joint problems, skin problems, heart problems, epilepsy, pancreas deficiencies and temperament problems........etc. etc.
There are some responsible dog breeders out there, but in some breeds gene pools are so polluted now that even a caring breeder has difficulty breeding healthy dogs. It is high time a thorough investigation was done exposing what is happening to dogs in this country.Being defensive about it before it has even been shown is simply putting on blinkers. To solve the problems they need to be known about and made public first. |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 2:48:15 PM
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I am absolutely furious about the way this has been reported so far. I saw it on the news earlier and I am just to mad at this moment to write anything sensible. I will however put my thoughts into words and share it with you from a boxer enthusiast's viewpoint. I am interested to see the actual programme as we may well learn from it. However it is the ridiculous news coverage so far that has really got my blood boiling |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 2:56:52 PM
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There are three people in my village who breed pedigree dogs....one lady breeds Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (one litter per year) and all are found homes before the bitch is even covered...she actually has a waiting list! She qualifies virtually every year for Crufts, and is more concerned with the dogs being happy than pretty or havng a 'fashionable' bloodline.
Another lady breeds Golden Retrievers....you may have heard of the Pendlemist dogs.....again, quality more than quantity, and again has a waiting list for pups....most of hers are gundogs/obedience dogs, but all have a fantastic life.
The third lady has Curly Coated Retrievers....and they are the happiest two lumps you will ever meet....big and as daft as they come. Again, she really doesn't care if they win Championships (but one of her gorgeous boys IS an Irish Champion) she would rather have them happy!
There are problems in the breeding of pedigree dogs, and there are some unscrupulous characters.......BUT as long as the breed standards continue to put dogs with obvious health problems at the tp of championship classes, and holds them up as the ideal for the breeds, then breeders will keep producing pups like that. The Kennel Club has a responsibility as well...to stop this, and tell breeders who do inbreed that it is not acceptable, and they should refuse to register the pups. That would cut it short.
Emma xx |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 2:58:27 PM
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I saw my vet today and he basically said everything that Zan just said.
There are not nearly enough laws protecting animals and any media coverage of an issue that is clearly very serious can only be a good thing. I understand why some breeders would feel defensive about it but if a breeder feels they have nothing to hide then they should be ok with the BBC highlighting this issue.
Michelle
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 3:51:46 PM
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Ok I've calmed down a bit now There are a few key misconceptions when it comes to boxers and I would like to put these right. Boxers are my life and I am as passionate about them as most of you are about arabs (who also come under fire from the ignorant masses from time to time ))
Boxers are a working breed - bred for power and strength. Yes they have an unusual head construction with a shorter nose/muzzle than other breeds but this does not lead to breathing problems in the boxer! They are fit, strong and athletic with a broad and powerful mouth.
Yes we have major health problems concerning the heart and we are working tirelessly as a breed to improve things. By "we" I am refering to the breed club and exhibitor/breeder - the very people who are accused of breeding for beauty at any cost. The type of breeder that concerns me is the one who breeds purely for profit or to "let the bitch have a litter". I had a phone call only yesterday from a man looking for "a" stud dog. Was he breeding to improve the breed? No. Was he even aware of heart problems and health tests? No. Did he even care whether the stud dog had been heart tested or what it even looked like? No. Was he breeding for beauty above all else? Probably not, but you see my point? The very people who are striving to improve the health of the breed are those who care passionately about breeding to the standard, those who spend thousands of pounds travelling the length and breadth of the country to exhibit their beautiful dogs, those who sit up all night nursing a litter and lovingly tend to them for weeks on end to be then labelled as uncaring and superficial
I cannot comment on other breeds and like in all walks of life you will find good and bad breeders. However it is just so unfair for the boxer to be held up as an example when we as a breed are working so hard to make improvements. The reporting of this programme has been a load of tosh. The two diseases that effect the boxer heart are aortic stenosis and cardiomyopathy. Aortic stenosis has been reduced dramatically over the last few years with heart testing schemes and this has been proven. We are very lucky to have an extremely talented geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach in the breed - he worked to completely eradicate another inherited disease in the 1980s (Progressive Axonopathy (PA)). The problem with cardiomyopathy has nothing to do with "inbreeding" it is inherited by a complex mode of inheritance and can skip generations. It has been traced back to two American imports from decades ago. Our breed council website gives some indications as to the work that is going on http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/health.htm
As with most issues regarding animals and the media - the pepole reporting have no idea and use terms such as inbreeding very loosely.
All I can say is the boxer is a wonderful dog and it's fundamental "design" is that of a strong and able workmanlike dog. We do have our health problems, but no more so than other breeds. |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 3:56:29 PM
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I can't speak for other breeds but not all labradors have hip dyplasia, OCD in the elbow,skin problems. My family had 2 labs (living to 15 and 16+) and I now have a 5 year old - none of them have had any of the above problems.
Also labs are the most popular breed where I live, you can't move in our village without tripping over one. Out of all of the ones in the village that I know (probably 15) I only know of 1 with any of the above problems.
I know there are some breeds with issues and I know that OCD and hip dyplasia is an issue in labs - but most the peeps I know with labs know about being responsible when picking puppies (unlike my boy who was a rehome) and checking parents hip scores, etc. Luckily the parents of my dog also had v low hip scores and is a show and working gundog.
One happy labrador in the Highlands |
    
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 5:04:41 PM
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Maramoo..My gran used to breed boxers...and I grew up with them...wonderful dogs....my grans last boxer, Peg, used to lie at the end of my cot as if she was guarding me....then when I was about 2, she knocked me flying down the stairs, as she was a little over enthusiastic when she said hello!
Still love Boxers to this day...every single one I have ever met has been endearingly daft!
Emma xx |
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Lanabanana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2691 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 5:33:13 PM
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They're just about to discuss it on R&J Channel4 |
     
Hampshire. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 5:37:09 PM
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One of my very best friends has just had to have both her dogs put down, both for genetic abnormalities present because of 'breeding enhancement'. The dalmatian had kidney and dreadful bladder problems and the boxer had been on serious pain killers for ages because of arthritis or something in the hips which I was told is something that comes with the breed because of its specialised breeding.
Seeing my heartbroken friend, losing her two faithful companions was terrible. I know people with such breeds will defend them - and rightly so, they adore their pets, but clearly some breeding is unwisely done, and clearly, features that aren't necessarily sensible seem to be encouraged!
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I agree that we do have to be very careful the Arab breed is not tainted in such a way in pursuit of extremes of beauty or movement. |
Roseanne |
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Maramoo
Silver Member
England
447 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 5:52:40 PM
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Roseanne - I am truly sorry for your friend and it's sounds as though she has had a terrible time of it. However hip dysplacia is one condition that boxers are not particularly genetically susceptible to. As in humans "life" brings with it the risk of getting illness! The one certainty we have in life is that one day we may die - the same may be said of dogs. I urge everyone for the sake of our own enjoyment in our chosen breed of dog, horse or other animal to exercise caution when speaking about issues when we do not have all the facts. http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/advise.htm see article at bottom of page on hip dysplacia.
I am glad you have known the boxer spirit Madmare they get to all who know them and it is this character and nobility that we strive to maintain whilst also improving the health - no easy task and I am just a beginner! - others have given a lifetime of devotion to these loveable clowns |
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Edited by - Maramoo on 19 Aug 2008 5:58:01 PM |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 6:03:40 PM
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I will watch this programme tonight so won't make too many comments until I've seen it!
I agree with Roseanne that we have to hope that the Arab horse is not tainted in such a way, in the future.
I only have 2 Arabs now & I know some of you will disagree with me but I don't agree with some of the practises that take place in the horse world. How many horses (not just Arabs) never have the freedom to run in a paddock with other horses?
IMO it looks unnatural for a horse to be posed, compare that to the way a hunter or show pony is shown & it is so different? Why is this done? - maybe someone can explain to me?
Just food for thought?
Lisa |
     
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 8:50:35 PM
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I have to agree with everything Zan has said.
Having worked as a veterinary nurse, I have seen a lot of these issues first hand, and believe me, they are out there !
I think what the decent breeders (and there are lots) have to focus on is that the whole point of this is to expose those unscrupulous people out there (and unfortunately there are lots of those too)who don't care about the animals and will do whatever it takes to make money and achieve results (a bit like what sadly goes on in the Arab showing world, although happily not so much in this country...).
At the end of the day, those that are doing no wrong have nothing to fear from this 'expose', most people with any common sense know not all breeders should be tarred with the same brush. The most important thing is to raise people's awareness of these issues,so they can choose the right breeder, and to try and put an end to the suffering of any animals affected in this way by putting the unscrupulous breeders out of business.
We humans do have this idea that we can 'improve' on nature, sometimes unfortunately to the detriment of the animals concerned |
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Joto
Gold Member
855 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 9:11:39 PM
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| I'm watching the progrmme now. the German shepherds look deformed to me. the hind legs/back end are awful. other breeds have other problems its saying now. its just dreadful. poor dogs. |
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Gemma
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 9:20:13 PM
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| It's just likened the Kennel Club to the Holocaust?!!!!! Think I'm going to have to turn over now.... |
 
Photo 2: West End Photography |
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Lanabanana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2691 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 9:23:36 PM
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| I'm off to work in a minute, but I'm not surprised it took two years to research such a biased one sided view |
Hampshire. |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 9:28:05 PM
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| Not having a go at anyone on here but the hypocrisy of the general public following this program will be what irritates me more than anything. The general public after watching this will hurl accusations at all breeders, all pedigree dogs, the Kennel Club etc (Crufts should be banned was something I just heard on the news!!!) but will then happily trot down to their local supermarket or takeaway and chow down on broiler raised chicken - possibly one the worst forms of animal cruelty that is allowed to continue on a mass scale every single day in this country. To make out that a small minority of badly and irresponsibly bred pedigree dogs is anywhere near as big or serious an issue as broiler chickens is nonsense and there for better headlines. After all puppy dogs are far cuter than chickens and those headlines sell more papers and get more viewers. |
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SarahA
Silver Member
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 9:37:59 PM
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| Hi. Looks like i might have missed this which is a shame i would have been very interested in it. I do hope they didnt sensationalize it. But if they manage to highlight some of the breeding issues that are about, then it can only be a good thing. I agree completely with the comments on german shephards. Even 20 short years ago they looked like a different breed, and they definately have problems with hips now? Is it because of breeding? Hopefully the program will highlight this. British bull dogs 80 years ago were bigger. With quite long legs in comparison to their modern equivalent and had a face nearer a boxer. No sign on the photo i have of a champion dog of an over shot jaw. So i guess we would have question if we have infact improved these breeds or changed them into something else.? i really dont want to offend anyone, i think everyone looks after and breeds from their animals with the best intention. If you breed to a champion then surely you are getting the best of a breed standard. But unfortunately as time goes on and the extreme of today becomes the normal of tomorrow. We gradually change breeds and i dont always think it is for the best. It certainly isnt just dogs. I have pedigree cats that my family breed, they had problems with their eyes when little and its because the breed now have quite flat heads and the tear ducts have to go around a 90 degree bend to drain. Obviously this causes more problems than normal. Beautiful cats that i love dearly but i can guarantee in 10 years time my cats faces will be smaller and more pointed than the new ones. They are british colour point short hairs by the way. Ps boxers are my absolute favorite dog in the world. They are so daft, funny and loving. Hope the programme repeats i wld be very interested. |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:07:59 PM
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The Chairman of the Kennel Club needs a reality check. All he seems to be worried about is losing membership. The Kennel Club are the guardians of the breed standards, they are to blame for the state of the breeds today...if they hadn't TAMPERED WITH THE STANDARDS in the 1st place.......! |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:09:02 PM
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Just thought of another plus side of this programme (couldnt watch it as i dont have a tv) Maybe more people will go out and rescue mix breeds instead of buying pedigree dogs. Maybe the RSPCA and such will benefit from the programme
Michelle |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 10:11:45 PM
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What a difference in the old pictures of the dog breeds to the modern day dogs!
The German Shepherds walked terribly on the hind quarters but IMO made worse by the fact that these dogs were placed in the showring?
My parents owned a king charles cavlier about 3 years ago & said they would never have another one due to the health problems they had - I just thought they were unlucky?- after watching this programme - maybe not?
and the rhodesian ridgebacks - puppies put to sleep if they didn't have the ridge!
My God how naive was I until I saw this programme!
Think I'll stick to my Jack Russells!-as far as I'm aware they aren't registered with the kennel club?
Lisa
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Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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