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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 08:56:54 AM
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The covering with Turton Fair must have been 1965 or before as he died in 1965 (don't know which month) according to the obituary in the Register of Thouroughbred Stallions 1968.
Didn't Lynda say she had seen an advert for him (Widdicombe Fair) saying he was champion polo pony stallion 1966/67 and 69. So surely he would have been a couple of years old before achieving that accolade.
Like you don't know why I am digging in to this subject but got lots of spare time at present as on 12 weeks sick leave and have always enjoyed looking in to pedigrees and collecting stud books/cards.
I am looking for the last 3 HIS studbooks (XXI, XXII, XIII) if anyone got them I would be interested in buying them. (Hope this isn't classed as advertising) |
Edited by - Melynda on 04 Oct 2007 10:17:28 AM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 10:09:27 AM
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| Is there a way of finding out all the horses born by TURTON FAIR.. Hope you get some rest and get well on the recovery trail...Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 04 Oct 2007 10:16:22 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 10:51:11 AM
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I've found even more! Just to let you know I have the PBA stud books as from Vol 4 6-21 and 32-40. The AHS haven't got any more of the older ones apart from Vol 4.
Vol 13: Cromer Caftan(1973)ch male by Radfan AHS x Minouska PBA Vol 9
Cromer Campari (1973) ch male by Radfan AHS x Cromer Chianti
Cromer Cockade (1973) pal male by Legend Arabian Sun PBA 9 x Shepley Sundancer PBA 8
Cromer Cymbeline (1973) Pal Filly by Royal Lancer PBA 10 x Kingsettle Fairytale PBA 5
Vol 14: C. Conquistadore (1974)Pal male by Legend Arabian Sun PBA 9 x Shepley Sundancer PBA 8
C. Cumulus (1974) Pal male by Bright Pearl AHS x C. Cinderella PBA 11
C. Caviar (1974) pal filly by Royal Lancer PBA 10 x Minoushka PBA 11
Vol 15: C. Charade and Cossak both Pal males. C. Carousel Pal Filly
Vol 17: C.Caliph (1977) Ch male by El Zayid AHS x Cromer Cinderella PBA 11
C. Constellation (1977) Cream male by Astwood Pearly Prince PBA 14 x C. Candelight
C. Charisma (1977) Pal filly by Legend Arabian Sun PBA 9 x Shepley Sundancer 11 PBA 8
C. Cressida (1977) Palfilly by Royal Lancer PBA 10 x Minoushka |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 11:50:27 AM
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Lynda should it be Minouchka (C instead of s) PBAR XI as Cromer Carina and Cromer Casique are by her? That is how they spelt her name in PBAR XX and XXII.
I've also put her on allbreed with that spelling but have no breeding details on her as no studbook to check it out, so perhaps you can fill that in.
Have also checked on allbreed and the different Vanity Fair's progeny which I put on the other day can now be seen, if anyone doesn't know how to check it just right click the horse's name and click progeny. |
Edited by - Melynda on 04 Oct 2007 11:54:31 AM |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 12:56:27 PM
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Sorry to be so late, everyone - have only just picked up this thread. From the National Pony Society Review for stallions standing at stud 1970 - listed under "Thoroughbred" - Widdicombe Fair (Polo Pony Register page 92). Sire:Turton Fair(GSB). Dam:Vanity Fair (Polo Pony Register page 60). The NPS should be able to give the info you want. I have a pic of Widdicombe Fair but need to hunt it out. Will show it as soon as I find it!
The Polo Pony Register is the fore-runner of the National Pony Stud Book. |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 2:34:14 PM
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Melynda
I've double checked, and Minoushka has been spelt both ways! Similar to Stargard/Starguard.
This thread and the other Palomino thread are definately over laping.
Minoushka/Minouchka Ch mare (1962) by Blue Domino x Maruska (unregistered).
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 2:36:24 PM
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Ronnie
Which Vol. No. is Widdicombe Fair in. I have two of the old Polo pony stud books - so I'm keeping fingers crossed that he is in one of them. |
Edited by - Lynda on 04 Oct 2007 2:53:35 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 3:12:57 PM
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Have been in touch with NPS. who have the original registration card for Widdicombe Fair (Polo pony Vol 31). The info on the card states that Sire Turton Fair GSB. Dam Vanity Fair (Polo pony Vol 30). No DOB.
Vanity Fair (no DOB. no colour) Sire Brownie (breeding unknown) Dam (unknown). |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 3:24:00 PM
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Up date:
Widdicombe Fair: Chestnut born 1956
Vanity Fair: Chestnut born 1941 |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 3:33:05 PM
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Sorry Lynda, I just copied the info from the stud advert - don"t have any Stud Books.
Just noticed your update - you"re getting there!! |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 8:20:10 PM
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Hi All,
Lynda,
Thank you for your stirling efforts!
Your source at the NPS has come up with the same info as Felicity at NPS ie Vanity Fair being a chestnut mare foaled 1941 by Brownie, dam and breeder unknown and owned by Mrs EM Cox with no address recorded.
Don't know if you were also told that the entry was made in 1959/60 book and Vanity Fair was known to be deceased before that volume(No30) went to print which is a bit odd.
The problem we have with this info is the 1941 Vanity Fair by Brownie on allbreeds gives Mr Toots Mare as the dam but she was also apparently born in 1941!
I'm betting this is the right Vanity Fair but the allbreeds entry for her dam is wrong.
Please feel free to prove me wrong!!!
Thanks to Nimlat - you don't know what you've got into joining this thread!!
Melynda - thanks again - also we have something in common - that's why I've got more time on my hands as well! I'm getting better all the time though and I do hope you're also on the mend.
Over to you all,
Chris |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 8:31:42 PM
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Hi Chris,
Yes I was told that Vanity Fair had died before the Vol 30 went to print. I think this might have been at the time when the NPS took over the Polo Pony register.
I was told that the only breeding that was stated for Vanity Fair was that she was by Brownie out of an unknown mare. We all have to remember that allbreeds is filled in by all and sundry, and not all the entries are correct.
If I can be of any more help, give me a shout. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 8:49:19 PM
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Hi & Welcome Ronnie, I posted a FTAO for you but after about a week or so removed the posting, I was thinking all the time you would remember most of this, and might be able to help with Widdicombe Fair etc...Sue (PS. I see Ijaaz was at Red Dragon ).
Does anyone know if these Polo Ponies were TB or could they be crossbred.anyone know where the old Polo pony Stud books are or have any???
You will see from the TB link, that both Brownie & Miss Toots Mare are Thoroughbred, just to add to the confusion and I've added the link to enable you to see the full pedigree. Hope we;ve all got our facts right, as this now makes Widdicombe Fair Thoroughbred.I can't understand why we cant find him in the TB register, if he is Thoroughbred.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/widdicombe+fair
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+toots+mare
What year did the Vol 30 get printed ???
The information on Mr Toots Mare, has come from the Thoroughbred site and was already there, you can go back to the 1800's, no one has interfered with that. maybe that can also be checked with Wetherbys & anyone with the TB registers for those years, she may have form. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 05 Oct 2007 10:32:32 AM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 11:05:13 AM
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Mr Toots Mare is on Weatherbys on line animal search born 1941 by Mr Toots out of Warglow. I've got the GSB Vol 30 (covers years 1941-1944) and neither Mr Toots Mare or Warglow are in it. If you check online her listed offspring are Mr Gay 1947 (G), Yonder He Goes 1949 (G), Gay Miss 1952 (F), Calm 1955 (F), The only Widdicombe Fair I've found from that era is on p. 182 Vol 30 (GSB) by Fairway out of Disguise by Dark Legend, this W. F. was a bay colt born 1943.
I have put these on allbreed.
Warglow has got 5 female off spring listed on Weatherbys, 3 unnamed (1937 by Buchan Hill, 1938 by Tartan, 1942 by Mr Toots) and the other two Mr Toots Mare (1941) and Miss Toots (1942)
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 1:52:59 PM
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According to the NPS Volume 30 incorporated all the animals born during 1959-1960 and others!
I also have NPS Vol 23 which is 1937-39, and the Polo and riding pony stud books 1905-1906 and 1911-1912. These books have all the polo ponies and the native breeds. Looking through these books, the polo ponies are either GSB registered, of mixed breeding, and pure and part-bred arabs. Also included are various show results, and offspring of the mares entered. The old NPS and polo pony stud books are like gold dust to find. |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 2:19:36 PM
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Hi everyone,
Sue,
Am I missing something that you've found out as I can't understand why we appear to have faith in the allbreeds entry for Vanity Fair in relation to her dam? I appreciate that Mr Toot's mare's details are correct in themselves but why are we not doubting that she is Vanity Fair's dam especially with the problem of the dates of birth - have I missed something?
Chris |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 2:48:20 PM
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I've just dug out my H-B Stud Book 1955 (F. M. Prior)
Found Mr Toots Mare and Miss Toots in it
Mr Toots Mare, 1941, brown, bred by Mr T.C. Hayes, Rathcoole, Fethard, Co. Tipperary.
This mare was not broken.
1946 Mr Hern, bay colt by Hern the Hunter
1947 Mr Gay, bay colt by Nosegay
1949 Yonder He Goes by Hern the Hunter
1952 Unnamed bay filly by Nosegay
1955 ? by Pearl Orient
Barren in 1948/50/51/53/54
Breeder of all these foals same as breeder of mare.
Miss Toots, 1940, brown, bred by Mr T. C. Hayes as above mare.
Steeplechased.
1950 Great Hal, chestnut, colt by King Hal
Not covered 1950/51 as put back in training.
1953 Unnamed bay filly by Flamenco.
1954 Unnamed bay colt by Flamenco.
Produced bred by Mr A. C. Bryce-Smith, Cherrymount, Kells, Co. Meath.
Warglow, 1930, brown, by Ruddygore out of Wargrave Mare, bred by Mr W. P. Hanly, Lanespark, Thurles, Co Tipperary.
1937 Unnamed (Buchan Hill Mare) brown filly by Buchan Hill.
1938 Unnamed bay filly by Tartan, died.
1939 barren.
1940 Miss Toots
1941 Mr Toots Mare
1942 Unnamed brown filly by Mr Toots
Sold to a dealer at Clonmel Fair in January 1943.
Produce bred by Mr T. C. Hayes as above.
Wargrave Mare, no colour given, by Wargrave out of dam by Othello out of a mare by Prince Hermes.
1930 Warglow
1931 W.P., colt by Ruddygore won point-to-point.
Produce bred by Mr W. P. Hanley as above.
So all these horses seems to have lived in Ireland.
So did Vanity Fair come across from there?
Where did Brownie stand?
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 2:50:07 PM
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| Just to clear things up a little. The NPS have the dam of Vanity Fair as "unknown". Maybe someone has found a Vanity Fair on allbreeds, and has assumed that she is the correct one. Maybe, maybe not. |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 5:18:36 PM
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Might have found her.
Looked in my H&H Year book 1951-1952 and on p.397 there is a picture!
"Mrs Fitzgerald's hack Vanity Fair, a consistent winner of 15 hands and ladies hack classes this season, ridden by Mrs C. Mackintosh."
No breeding details bur she has 10 listings of major wins and places at Royal Windsor, Redhill Agricultural Society, Oxfordshire County, Rickmond Royal, International at White City, Hertfordshire, West Surrey, Henley on Thames, Bath. All in hack classes ranging from 14.2-15hh.
Sorry I can't upload picture yet as son and husband are using main computer with scanner etc. Will try to do it tomorrow. She looks quite nice light chestnut likely to breed a polopony. If anyone is worse done me in collecting old dusty books and magazines etc they might just have a programme listing breeding details. |
Edited by - Melynda on 05 Oct 2007 6:13:42 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 5:52:33 PM
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| I would be the last one to dampen anyones hopes, but unfortunately, bloodlines have to be proven, and how do you do that? |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 6:12:01 PM
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| Yes, you are correct in that it has to be verified but I thought someone might now these names and somehow connect them to Widdicombe Fair. I also noted that this Vanity Fair seems to have vanished from the showing scene the following years which might indicate she was used for breeding. |
Edited by - Melynda on 05 Oct 2007 6:14:08 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 8:20:49 PM
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I think we need to confirm if she was listed in the Polo Pony register, I thought somewhere I'd read that she was Polo Pony bred, then we need to checkout that entry, I don't think she could have been there without some breeding info. Would be usefull to know where Brownie was standing at stud and did we confirm that Widdicombe Fair was bred at Kynanse, what does it say on the stud card?????
At this time there were lots of horses coming into the country from Ireland.
Anyone know who might keep the old Polo Pony Registers...wonder what his stud card said.....
Back to the Palomino's for a mo, today I spoke to Mrs Munday and I will speak to her again and go visit, I've asked her to see if she can find any old pictures of the mare's from those early days. She told me that SUNDOWNER 1961, came from the USA and that she bought him from a lady in Yorkshire,who had'nt used him much, she said she kept him all his life and she did mention Chipperfield Circus, so will have to find out about that..If anyone has anything specific they want me to ask, maybe you could let me know.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 06 Oct 2007 10:13:43 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 8:58:36 PM
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This could be interesting: It looks as though Vanity Fair could only have been in the NPS books, as the Polo pony books had finished by then.
In 1893, The Polo Pony Stud Book was formed, encouraging the breeding of fine riding and polo ponies. By 1899, there were over 100 stallions and 600 mares registered, almost half of which were native ponies. The society changed its name in 1903 to Polo Pony and Riding Pony Stud book, and again in 1913 to the National Pony Society. Over the years, the native breeds formed their own societies, and the NPS became dedicated to the British Riding Pony. Since 1994, foreign-bred ponies were placed on a separate register.
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 10:23:17 AM
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Ronnie has already confirmed that Vanity Fair (Widdicombe Fair's mother is recorded in the Polo Pony Register on page 60, we need to look there. and also marry this up with any entry in the NPS, so which NPS do we need to look at Lynda, are they numbered or in Vols. & what year are we talking about. I think this will just say what we already know,(1941, sire Brownie & dam Uknown ) but, it needs to be confirmed, bearing in mind she was entered late and it went to print after she'd died, again,which year are we talking about. Does anyone have the Polo Pony Register with page 60 ?????? please...
Widdicome Faire was also entered under Thoroughbred in the stallion review, that would mean that he would have both sire & dam recorded. that needs looking at to...Polo Pony Register page 92 ??????.
The only other route would be to find out who bred Widdicombe Fair & speak to someone from those times, if thats possible. Did he stand at Kynanse Stud at Bosbury, does anyone know....please Sue.. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 06 Oct 2007 10:36:27 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 10:45:19 AM
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I will have lots of news about Vanity Fair a little later today. A friend of mine has a full set of books called "The Horsemans Year", and read out all the info to me this morning. I have to phone him back early afternoon, so that I can write it all down.
If it is the same horse (keep fingers crossed) it does state that she was by Brownie out of a mare by Mr Toots.
There is a Vanity Fair who is registered with the NPS Vol 30, by Brownie, but dam unknown.
I have found an advert for Widdicombe Fair in the Pony Stallion Guide 1970-he was standing at Kynance Stud, Nr. Ledbury, Herts and the advert reads as follows.
Champion Widdicombe Fair : Chestnut NPS. 15hands. By Turton Fair - Vanity Fair. Hunted as a young horse. Champion Polo Pony Stallion in 1966, 1967 and 1969.
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Edited by - Lynda on 06 Oct 2007 10:58:31 AM |
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