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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 5:43:58 PM
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Now just wondering whether Felicity has come up with the right Vanity Fair as she was born in 1941 - what do you think?
Got to go out now,
Chris. |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 8:46:56 PM
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Hi Chris
Not sure about Vanity Fair being the right one or not. If I were you, I would phone the NPS to see if they have her registered. The 50% mentioned is the amount of arab blood and MOA number is the Ministry of Agriculture licence that stallions had to have in order to stand at stud.
I have lots of PBA and NPS stud books, but am missing vol 5 PBA, but I do know how to get the info regarding Eclipse, Sunshine and Golden Sappo, but will have to wait until tomorrow.....watch this space! |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 9:09:37 PM
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Hi there Lynda,
You've just made me realise that I've had yet another blonde with grey hairs moment! I've put BPS instead of NPS in relation to Felicity's information. Her details regarding Vanity Fair are out of the NPS register.
Thank you for your explanations about 50% etc.
Most interested to see what you may come up with tomorrow although I may have to wait as I'm supposed to be away until Tuesday and doubt I will have access on line until then.
Best regards,
Chris |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 2:15:59 PM
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| Eclipse (1948)is "breeding unknown" in Vol 5. Golden Sappho was by Golden Trail out of Ashley/Ashly Golden Olga. I'll keep digging to see what else I can come up with. |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 7:03:05 PM
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Ashley Golden Olga is in my boys pedigree too.  She is a New Forest Pony, but sadly the New Forest Society weren't able to give me any details about her parents. They said that this mare dates to around 1943 and unfortunately thanks to the War, a lot of New Forest Ponies ended up either unregistered or their details destroyed in the bombings. |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 8:43:50 PM
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OMG - What a team, your all at it now and doing a brilliant job...think we should set up our own record bank for all the future queries....folks..will add all the bits to all breeds that I can..keep them coming and look out for any pic's, I will speak to Mrs Munday & hope to visit her in case she has any old photo's she'll let me borrow....Sue
HOLD YOUR HORSES. Back to the drawing Board.
Something not quite right with Vanity Fair (1941) as
Mr Toots Mare (GB -TB) Year of Birth 1941,
out of Warglow 1930, sire Ruddygore 1907.GB-TB.
check out the link below...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+toots+mare
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 28 Sep 2007 9:04:07 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 10:10:30 AM
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I think we're doing a fantastic job here. I have found an advert for Widdicombe Fair in the Pony Stallion Guide 1970-he was standing at Kynance Stud, Nr. Ledbury, Herts and the advert reads as follows.
Champion Widdicombe Fair : Chestnut NPS. 15hands. By Turton Fair - Vanity Fair. Hunted as a young horse. Champion Polo Pony Stallion in 1966, 1967 and 1969.
Out of interest, they also stood the thoroughbred stallion Turton's Son who was 14.2h.h and also by Turton Fair. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 11:04:48 AM
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| They were in Ledbury, Herefordshire. I failed to find the horse on the TB register, did it give his year of Birth, that might help,I remember the horse well and his owners. I think he may have been a part bred TB, but this needs comfirming. The Vanity Fair on the allbreeds, |I am pretty sure is the wrong one, I've looked at both Vanity Fairs from around that time and one was born in 1941, same year as her dam, so thats not right & the other had another foal the same year as vanity fair was born..so thats not the right one either..so more info needed on Vanity Fair.... Keep at it folks we'll get there....Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 29 Sep 2007 11:10:16 AM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 5:51:08 PM
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I've seen an advert for Turton Fair in H & H Yearbook 1955/56.
Owner D. L. Westwood, "Kynance", Shawhurst Lane, Hollywood, Nr Birmingham.
I've also put a couple more Vanity Fair (31,32) on allbreed, the last two seems to have bred a few South American registered offspring, so perhaps one of them managed to produce Widdicombe Fair as they might have been used in polo-pony breeding. Vanity Fair (3) also seems to have produced a lot off foals. Progeny doesn't a
show up yet, but I have put a lot of them on and it usually takes a little while for them to appear on allbreed.
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Edited by - Melynda on 02 Oct 2007 7:02:09 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 6:10:30 PM
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| Have dug a bit further in to my H&H books and in 1951/52 there is a Vanity Fair owned by a Miss J. Taylor who won the Ponies (Local Farmer's Consolation) first prize at the Rutland County Show. |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 6:04:41 PM
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Hi everyone,
Just got back from long weekend away to read the latest from you all re Vanity Fair etc.
I'm a bit confused looking at the link cause I'm almost certain that when I originally tried allbreeds for data on Mr Toots Mare there wasn't any except her birth date which I noted as 1937. I distinctly remember looking on a throughbred site afterwards because of this and found nothing on her there either. It does seem to be too much of a coincidence that this Vanity Fair was also by Brownie as Felicity of BPS had in her register. I wonder whether the 1941 birth date for Mr Toots Mare is wrong on the allbreeds and it should read 1937 which would make sense!!
Got an interesting reply from Jen BPS re mare Tormello. Apparently Tormella was a cremello by Toronto out of Melville both of whom were palominos imported from Canada. Tormella was owned by Mrs Howell and then by Mr & Mrs D Williamson from York but that's all she could come up with at the moment.
Brilliant work going on here by the newly formed palomino detection agency! Other people later on are going to be delighted with all the allbreeds palomino related breeding entries you've put on - when I started with all this there was no entry for any of the Cromer Horses on allbreeds.
Will continue to watch with interest.
Chris
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 6:59:55 PM
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Weatherbys Bloodstock register got Mr Toots Mare as born 1941. By Mr Toots out of Warglow. Warglow's breeding unknown but born in 1930.
Mr Toots Mare has got 4 registered offspring: Mr Gay, 1947, gelding by Nosegay. Yonder He Goes, 1949, gelding by Hern The Hunter. Gay Miss, 1952, mare by Nosegay. Calm, 1955, mare by Prince Richard. I have put all this on allbreed but probably not on website yet. Your Vanity Fair can't be right as she was born same year as its dam. There are the other 3 thoroughbred mares of the name Vanity Fair who are registered with Weatherbys. Two who seems to have been breed to South American stallions who might have produced some polo offspring. There are two Widdicombe Fair on Weatherbys register. 1943 bay colt by Fairway out of Disguise and a 1981 mare by Fair Season out of Calgary. So I think your Vanity Fair entry on albreeds must be wrong.
P.S.
I think I've managed to get a yahoo account to enable me to upload some photos.
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Edited by - Melynda on 02 Oct 2007 7:04:47 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 7:46:08 PM
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Did'nt I already say that way back, I don't think Widdicombe Fair is TB, and I do think he was out of a mare called Vanity Fair. so back to the drawing board again, I'm hoping that at the Equine event there will be folks that will remember.
From the 28th.September.
HOLD YOUR HORSES. Back to the drawing Board.
Something not quite right with Vanity Fair (1941) as
Mr Toots Mare (GB -TB) Year of Birth 1941,
out of Warglow 1930, sire Ruddygore 1907.GB-TB.
check out the link below...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+toots+mare
---------------------------------------------------
Is'nt Mrs Westwood the African Gold lady from Hollywood & I think the stud in Ledbury was called Kynance, so maybe theire is a link between these two. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Oct 2007 09:35:49 AM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 9:06:12 PM
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Hi again everyone,
I am almost certain that Joan Latchford told me that Widdicombe Fair was a half thoroughbred chestnut by Turton Fair (I've just checked my scribblings from my conversation with her) however, I also remember she actually said she did not know the dam but the Collings of the Shepley stud would know.
It does seem odd to me that Jen of BPS has an entry for Widdicombe Fair which says he is by Turton Fair (GSB) out of Vanity Fair (BPS) and the only Vanity Fair, Felicity (of the BPS) could find registered (BPS) was the Vanity Fair by Brownie. There was also something a bit odd and sketchy about this Vanity Fair's entry because it said she was foaled in 1941 and yet it wasn't until the 1959/60 Volume 30 that she was registered and she was apparently known to be dead before this registration book was actually printed and the person registering her did'nt know her dam. I wonder whether then perhaps Vanity Fairs' d.o.b could be wrong
What do think |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 9:11:58 PM
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Sorry getting my BPS & NPS mixed up again! Previous post should refer to NPS all the way through |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 09:42:19 AM
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Back to Vaniety Fair, somewhere she os said to be 50%, if thats entered in the stud book, that something else to look at, as she'll be by an Arab. Mrs Westwood @ Hollywood kept African Gold & other arabs, just maybe thats a nother lead to follow. and now wondering how many Vanity Fairs are listed as having a 100% Arab Parent....
Anyone got the full pedigree of Cromer Chanelier, year of birth & sex...colour... |
Sue
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 10:51:03 AM
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Hello again sorry if I am a bit slow this week but recovering from major surgery so anaesthetic has had an effect on me.
Had a look in my Foaling returns for Non-Thoroughbred Mares this morning and there are a couple of Vanity Fairs in it.
Vanity Fair III, black, 1962, breeder unknown, by Turton's Story further pedigree unknown. Had a chestnut filly by Squill in 1974, A brown filly by Squill in 1975, Chestnut colt by Squill in 1976. No return to Arcadian Memories in 1977, Barren to Arcadian Memories 1978, Barren to Major Sol 1980. Breeder of all foals a Mrs M. P. Drinkwater.
Vanity Fair IX, grey, 1961, breeder Mrs J. Kitter Master, by Bauble out of Dam Unregistered by Zethan. No foaling returns in 1974/75/76/77/78/80. I haven't got the 1979 volume.
There is also Vanity Fair VII, bay 1966, breeder Mrs M. E. Downie, by Colonel Gainsborough out of Dam unregistered by Irish Dance. Probably to late for Widdicombe Fair.
Vanity Fair VIII, bay, 1963, breeder unknown by Guide out of Dam unregistered by Irish Dance. Barren 1975 to Old Wine, barren to Phidigo 1976, 1977 no return, 1978 no return, 1980 no return.
Turton's Story, TB, chestnut, 1956.
Bauble, TB, chestnut, 1950.
Zethan, Arab, grey, 1946.
Guide, TB, chestnut, 1949.
Irish Dance, TB, 1943. HIS Premium stallion. Has got a few palomino offspring on allbreed.
Squill is TB stood at C. E. Rawlings, Ludlow in the 70s.
Major Sol is TB stood with T. W. Roberts, Wolverhampton in the 70s.
I think Vanity Fair IX sounds quite intrestin as she is part arab.
Another note Turton Fair died in 1965.
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Edited by - Melynda on 03 Oct 2007 11:16:30 AM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 11:06:20 AM
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Hi, Still working well..keep at it, we'll get there in the end.
I think we still need a Year of Birth for Widdicombe Fair, anyone spotted it anywhere and of course he is half TB as he'd by Turton Fair for sure....Anyone got any old County Show Catalogues from around the 1970 ies, like Monmouth, Kingsland. Leaomister. etc., as this horse was out showing...D.L.WEstwood @ Kynance also bred Turton Pageboy. Turtons Daughter, and had Onceuponatime & Julias Hamlet.
Charles Edwards - Sarnau, used Irish Dance so he was'nt too far away from the Kynance Stud. Major Rawlings had several good stallions in his Barn and also was close to Kyanance & travelled his stallions too. I remember Squill & Mr Sam.
I wish we could get someone to checkout the NPS. Riding Pony section for any Vanity Fair and also the Part Bred Arab register for around 1940, if there was one....as the 100% Arab parent could just be what were after... |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Oct 2007 11:40:11 AM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 11:11:46 AM
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Hi Sue,
I fear I could be causing more confusion than help here. I've just looked at the scribblings from my conversation with Mrs Latchford and I think I may have misinterpreted the bit about the dam of Cromer Chandelier and I am most concerned that there is an inaccurate entry now on all breeds'
What I wrote down as Joan was talking to me was that 'Cromer Chandelire was by Sundowner out of a mare by Cromer Candlelight out of Shepley Sundancer'. She also told me that Cromer Chandelire was a palomino PBAR.
There was never any doubt in my mind about Sundowner being the sire of Cromer Chandelier that's why I started this post about Sundowner.
However, looking at what I wrote, I was never actually told the name of Cromer Chandelier's dam herself.
Just for further info she said Cromer Caress was a palomino by the chestnut PBAR stallion Cromer Cabaret who had been out of a PBAR palomino mare called Cromer Carousel and Cabaret's sire was the pure bred arab Rachid. Cromer Caress' dam had been a PBAR cremello called Cromer Cascade whose sire was the palomino PBAR Cromer Chandelire.
Cascade's dam was the palomino mare Shepley Sundancer.
If nobody knows Chandelire's dam I'll speak to Joan again.
Regards,
Chris |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 11:41:19 AM
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| If she is PBA she may be in the register,best to comfirm there...have you also got a year of Birth.....& there is no entry on allbreeds for Cromer ChandelIRE....its down as LIER.......Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Oct 2007 11:51:08 AM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 1:05:02 PM
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Have found several Cromer horses in my very limited set of PBAR.
Cromer Chandelier should be in Vol XV
Cromer Candlelight is down as Dam to a few, have put them on allbreed but also noted someone has put a Cromer Candlelight down as a sire which must be wrong. She has not got any registration details in the books so appears not to be registered.
Cromer Carraway, 1982, chestnut colt out of Cromer Candlelight.
Cromer Carella, 1980, palomino mare out of Cromer Candlelight.
Cromer Cabaret, 1983, chestnut colt by Rachid (AHSB XIV) out of Cromer Carousel (PBAR XV)
Shepley Sundancer should be in PBAR Vol VIII
Haven't got vol VIII or XV so can't check them out.
Perhaps Chandelier's dam is Candlelight, follows on quite naturally. |
Edited by - Melynda on 03 Oct 2007 1:34:25 PM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 4:44:51 PM
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Hi everyone,
Just to say I've never had any birth dates given me so I can't help there.
I'm also a little confused as Felicity from the NPS said that the only Vanity Fair they had registered was the chestnut mare by Brownie registered as a polo pony. Jen at the BPS definitely said the Vanity Fair was NPS registered and so I'm still thinking along the lines that we've found the right Vanity Fair but she was registered late with the wrong date of birth.
Are there other sources at the NPS I should be trying? I was of the impression that Felicity at the NPS was looking at all their entries which should have included the Riding Pony's. Mind you it does seem a bit odd that there was only one Vanity Fair registered as it does unfortunately seem to be a popular name.
I haven't ever entered any data on allbreeds myself as I'd rather leave it to the experts!
Regarding the spelling of Chandelier I've seen it spelt both ways but I don't know which is right.
It's really interesting all these Cromer horses you have come up with Melynda I've been noting the dates that I didn't know from your info so thanks a lot. Jen from the Palomino Society actually gave Shepley Sundancer's entry as being No.877 of BPS Vol III.
Can anyone delete the information on allbreeds re Cromer Chandelier that is wrong and put Sundowner as her sire or is it now not able to be removed once it has been entered as obviously this wrong info is also on Cromer Cornetta's entry?
Regards to all,
Chris |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 4:52:11 PM
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Found a few more.
Cromer Carousel by Silver Moonlight x Rajeen
Cromer Chandelier (1975) by Sundowner x Cromer Candelight (unregistered)
Cromer Charade (1975) by Bright Pearl AHS x Cromer Cinderella who was by Shergolds Golden Dusk (Miksham AHS x Criban Cream Jean) out of Sunsale.
Cromer Cossak (1975) by Silver Moonlight x Minoushka who was by Blue Domino AHS x Marouska. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 10:54:21 PM
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Hi Folks, Almost feel like going out and getting myself a Palomino...
Things are realy moving things on, what a party, just need the sex of both Cromer Charade & Cossak to get them onto allbreeds. I hope the breed society's have there stud books with them at the Equine event..hope to do a bit of digging there...
Melynda, I found the extra Vanity Fairs intersting, I remember Widdicombe Fair and I think that should put him around the 1970ies, I was wondering about the black mare Vanity Fair(1962) by Turtons Story(1956)(Turton Fair/Onceuponatime),as they owned both of these, I wonder if they covered this mare with Turton Fair(1944) to produce Widdicome Fair. could have been any year between 1965 - 1972. If Turton Fair died in 1965, that would only give 1966 for Widdicombe Fair's birth, as I think that mare has foals for the previous years entered on the TB. The Westwoods seem to have used their own breeding on most of the mares, like Turton Pageboy(Havastory/Turtons Daughter)...makes me wonder...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/turton+pageboy
Keep at it..almost there.
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 04 Oct 2007 10:07:21 AM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 08:30:55 AM
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Just to ensure everyone that this graft is worthwhile from my point of view (although I'm sure I'm not the only one who will benefit from this) my foal has now passed the vetting and I am now just waiting for her to be sucessfully weaned before she comes!! VERY EXCITED.....
Thank you all,
Chris |
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