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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 10:55:47 AM
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| Hi Lynda, Just off to the ARO racing at Warwick, so keeping my fingers crossed for this one, will check later...wish me luck & I wish you luck..see if you can get him to copy the page for future reference and get the year of the book & page number and that can be recorded as proof for the future. Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 06 Oct 2007 10:59:57 AM |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 11:09:01 AM
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The Stud advert for Widdicombe Fair in 1970 gives the address: D.L.Westwood,Kynance Stud,Bosbury, nr. Ledbury,Herefordshire.
I have put the only pic I can find of W. Fair on your request for info thread. R |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 11:21:23 AM
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| Just reading thru' the last page - maybe Vanity Fair is in Prior's Non-Thoroughbred Register? If the pedigree is correct she's pure-bred but, perhaps, was never registered with Weatherbys. |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 1:08:56 PM
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Gosh,this is getting quite exciting! I would like my foal's Vanity Fair to be the Champion Show Hack please if you could arrange this!!!
What a team at work here you are fantastic!
I've just been up to the stables to sort out some fencing as the young madam is expected in the next week or so and it really
looks like I will now be able to explain to her who all her long lost relatives were which I'm sure will encourage her into good ways right from the start!
Thank you all again,
Chris
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 2:38:02 PM
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Well here goes: All the following info has come from "The Horsemans Year Books", from 1947-51
Vanity Fair (chestnut) by Brownie out of a mare by Mr. Toots.
1947: Owned by Mrs A.R. Kent (could this be the mother of Jane McHugh, nee Kent?).
International Horse Show: 2nd Ladies Hacks Side Saddle
1948: Owned by Mrs V. Fitzgerald, and ridden mainly by Mrs Mackintosh.
Royal Windsor: 3rd Small Hack
1949:
Royal Windsor: 3rd Small Hack
Royal Richmond: 2nd Small Hack
International: 3rd Small Hack
1950: International: 1st Small Hack
1951: Royal Windsor: 1st Small Hack and 1st Ladies Hack
Royal Richmond: 3rd Small Hack
International: 1st Small Hack
In 1947 Mrs Fitzgerald also had a horse called Symphony, who together with Mandalay ridden by Mrs Mackintosh won the Pairs class at Royal Richmond and Royal Windsor. Symphony was also by Brownie.
No more info from that source, and Vanity Fair disappeared from the show scene around about 1953.
1953 onwards Mrs Fitzgerald had another hack called Shamsi, who was exhibited at the Arab Show.
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 5:27:42 PM
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Here is the picture I promised.
From Horse and Hound Year Book 1951-1952 |
Edited by - Melynda on 06 Oct 2007 5:31:34 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 5:40:20 PM
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I've also got Horseman's Year 1946/47 and 47/48.
In 1947/48.
It says The International Horse Show July 7-11th 1947.
Ladies Hacks
2nd Mrs A. R. kent's Chetstnut Mare Vanity Fair, 6 years. By Brownie out of dam by Mr. Toots.
I haven't found her in the 1955 Prior book which has got the Mare called Mr Toots Mare in it. I think Mr. Toots stood in Ireland.
Brownie by Winalot should be in GSB XXVII p.764
The off spring I've found by him seems to have been bred in Ireland. |
Edited by - Melynda on 06 Oct 2007 6:19:49 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 11:12:35 PM
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Brill Job everyone, almost there, now added the two pic to all breeds, I now feel sure Mr Toots Mare is the dam, as some of the mare's on that line were all named by just adding mare to the sire's name. like, Artillary = Artillary Mare, Lord Gough = Lord Gough Mare, King Tom = King Tom Mare, Mr Toots = Mr Toots Mare, there can be no question that Mr Toots Mare was by Mr Toots. Sue
 Widdicombe Fair. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 07 Oct 2007 4:37:16 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2007 : 7:31:08 PM
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Another Nr. Toots Mare found in Half-Bred Stud-Book Vol V p.197.
Mr. Toots Mare
bred by Dr. T. G. O'Brien in 193-, her dam (p. 212) by Ruddygore (h.b.), out of Rose Marten by Marten.
1939 Ch, c, Offsit by Cobequid. |
Edited by - Melynda on 08 Oct 2007 09:39:40 AM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 09:36:14 AM
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No she wasn't named only down as Ruddygore Mare but pedigree given.
Ruddygore is down as h.b. which is half-bred thus barring a stallion's progeny from entry in to the GSB.
That might be the reason for Ruddygore 1907 parentage being Unknown on Weatherbys and also why he is not listed in T.B. stallion books.
I have also seen Ruddigore spelt Ruddigore in some books not sure if it is the same stallion but I think I saw a Ruddigore born in the late 1800s somewhere and he was T.B.
Brownie is a T.B. born in 1931.
This is the pedigree for her as filled in from H-B Stud-Book Vol V.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=MR+TOOTS+MARE3&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
[/right] |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 11:29:55 AM
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| There was a well known small thoroughbred stallion called Ruddigore, who was very popular, and I'm sure was born in the '50s. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 12:02:39 PM
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| Ruddygore 1907 & Rose Martin 1919 are Thoroughbred Horses and their pedigrees go back into the 1800's....so something is amiss with your account. |
Sue
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 1:17:13 PM
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Rose Marten is in GSB Vol XXV p. 672 (haven't got this book)
also in GSB Vol XXX p. 607 (which I have got)
Her only thoroughbred produce was
1936 Chestnut gelding, Jurisprudence by Within-the-Law bred by Dr. T. G. O'Brien. She is noted as having died 1936.
It seems that this Dr. T. G. O'Brien continued this female line by keeping her offspring by Ruddygore (h. b.) and grandaughter by Mr. Toots.
According to Register of Thoroughbred Stallions 1948: Brownie (GSB XIV) bay, 1931, stod at Nicholstown Castle Stud, Cahir, Co. Tipperary, Eire.
Have not yet found Ruddygore listed in any of my registers. He might have been entered in to the stud book later on although he doesn't appear to be 100% thoroughbred.
Think this might be the other Ruddigore
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ruddigore
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Edited by - Melynda on 08 Oct 2007 5:20:12 PM |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 5:24:28 PM
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Lynda, the "small Thoroughbred stallion" that you recall is,I think an Anglo-Arab.
Ruddigore(Whiteway x Mocha), bred and owned by Miss M.E. Croft, M.R.C.V.S. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 8:30:05 PM
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| Ruddigore (Whiteway x Mocha) was born in 1956, same year as Widdicombe Fair, so he's out...... |
Sue
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 8:44:50 PM
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Hi everyone,
I've just had a reply from Patricia Erigero of TB Heritage she has the following to add :
There was a half-bred mare, listed in the Prior Half Bred Stud Book of 1955, called Mr Toots Mare. She was bred by TG O'Brien in 193?. Her dam was by Ruddygore (a half Bred stallion), out of Rose Marten, by Marten. In the 1955 volume (Vol V) her one foal listed was Offsit, a chestnut colt of 1939, by Cobequid.
Since Prior completed much of her material from personal correspondence, if she did not have the exact date in the 1930's for the mare, then whoever provided her with the information could not remember or had not recorded it.
Mr Toots Mare's dam, also in1955 volume, was a chestnut bred by TG O'Brien 'in about 1930', by Ruddygore and out of Rose Marten (a registered thoroughbred mare) by Marten, out of Simon's Rose by Simontault. In her listing of produce it goes
193? - by Mr Toots
1942 - BF Miss Chips by The Carpenter
1945 - Br F Pampas Girl by Pampas Grass, winner of 3 steeplechases worth £333
Produce bred by Dr.TG. O'Brien Stoneyford, County Kilkenny.
The next volume of the Prior's Half bred Stud Book (1962) does not offer any additional information for Mr Toots Mare. I do not have the final two volumes.
The Toots Mare out of Warglow has progeny listed in the 1962 volume (Vol Vi) starting in 1947; there were 2 fillies in 1952 & 1955, but these would not be Vanity Fair.
There is no listing for Vanity Fair in either Vols V or VI.
Patricia goes on to wish us luck and suggests an annual called The Irish Horse (first published in the late 1930's) Horse & Hound & Country Life Magazines as possible sources.
I know most of this repeats what has already been found but I thought I'd post it because it has got Dr O'Brien's base as Stonyford Kilkenny.
I am totally amazed how helpful so many people are being!
Chris |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 9:59:50 PM
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Just looked on allbreeds re Cromer Cornetta and noticed someone has very kindly entered breeding for Tormella but has noted her as a palomino which is unfortunately incorrect as she was definately a cremello and had palomino parents.
If someone could sort this I would be very grateful.
Chris |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 10:28:03 PM
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So what would you like entered in for her colour, as there is no listing for cremello & you will now have to decide what breeding she is. keep me posted and I will alter to suit..
After speaking to Jeanette Munday, I now realize that Sundowner 1961,was imported from the US ( or canada), Mrs Munday said the USA, although some one has mentioned Canada....SO ......SO, this horse was not bred here...so them how can he be the offspring of the Arabian Stallion here in Britain as we thought ????? and is he realy by the other Starguard the Palomino..... the one with the 'U' in his name and not Arab at all and now what will happen to all those off springs with Part Arab blood, or what we though had PA blood....
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 08 Oct 2007 10:40:59 PM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 11:08:46 PM
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Hi Sue,
Don't know what's best re Tormella - perhaps no entry re colour as the parents are both entered as palominos?
With regard to our infamous starting point Sundowner I do see where your coming from ..... haven't the time now to read through everything you've found to have a re think but will do soon.
Regards,
Chris |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 11:24:43 PM
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Hi Chris, just a tip re color.. type Cremello in the box for 'High' and it will show up under her name (I think I've seen others do so) Then chose No color in the box for color.
Bia |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 11:53:44 AM
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Ronnie, you are absolutely right - sorry!
I have double checked my Part bred register Vol 6 and it definitely states that Sundowner born 1961 Palomino by Starguard AHS out of Tormello. Later today, I might be able to contact "a friend" to see if I can find out who originally registered him. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 12:22:33 PM
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| The Arab Stallion is without the 'U' Stargard AHS, and this is the one we've used so far. Sundowner is in the P.B.A.R. Vol. VI, one I don't have. I think we've been here before, might be best for me to ask Jeanette Munday who he was by and if she can confirm the sire's breeding.I understand, she bought Sundowner 1961, from the lady in Yorkshire who imported him from US. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 10 Oct 2007 09:56:24 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 3:01:35 PM
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I've managed to find out where I think the muddle may be.
Sundowner (later Kimberley Sundowner) by Stargard AHS out of Tormella, was bred by Mrs Williamson in Yorkshire. His dam, Tormella was by Toronto out of Melville. No other breeding was available. |
Edited by - Lynda on 09 Oct 2007 3:54:42 PM |
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 3:29:32 PM
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Well done for finding out Tormello`s parents , the only one`s missing on Jazz`s pedigree now are Fiona & Sylvia`s parents ...oh & the dam of April Golden glory ( her sire is Palais de Danse )
can anyone please put some pics onto all breeds for me as im not able to ?  |
     
Brixham (South Devon ) |
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