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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 12:13:00 PM
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| Is the Eye colour the only difference between Cremello & Albino and at the end of the day this mare was breeding Palomino's on a regular basis. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 21 Sep 2007 12:14:19 PM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 4:51:52 PM
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Hi Sue,
As far as I understand it there are no albino horses!
Albinism I believe is created when a baby receives 2 recessive genes from its parents (one from each) As these genes are recessive the parents never show any signs of albinism. This genetic situation has apparently not been found in horses. The cream gene which causes a cremello is not a recessive gene and can be seen in the parents ie Palomino, Dun, Cremmello.
Hope that helps!
Chris |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 5:24:21 PM
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Cremmello is a Homozygote with chestnut as base colour.
Genotype: -- ee Cr Cr
It has cream to white coloured hairs, pink skin and blue eyes.
Perlino is a Homozygote with black base colour.
Genotype: aa E- Cr Cr
Looks more pearly white probably a bit less white in hair colour, pink skin and blue eyes.
Palomino is a Heterozygote
Genotype -- ee Cr cr
Has got reddishyellow to yellow hairs with light to nearly white mane and tail, brown to beige skin, and eyes are mostly light brown in colour.
Two palominos crossed with each other get 50% palomino, 25% chestnut and 25% cremello. Safest way to produce a palomino would be to cross a chestnut with a cremello.
Albino is a Homozygote.
It's recessive gene: c
It results in abscence of pigments in hair and skin and animals have red eyes. There are no albino horses.
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Edited by - Melynda on 21 Sep 2007 5:25:49 PM |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 7:41:16 PM
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Wow, that is really interesting Melynda. I've worked out from your description and details that my lad (Palomino) will be Genotype -- ee Cr cr. Both his parents were Palomino. There were lots of Chestnuts though on his fathers side and a few cremello's on his mums side. The whole genetics and colour subject interests me greatly. I always find if amazing that the same mare and stallion can produce different coloured offspring each year! I have a friend who's broodmare has produced bay, black and chestnut all to the same stallion.......seems very odd, don't you think?! The mare in question was grey and the stallion dark bay.
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The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
Edited by - Qui Gon Jinn on 21 Sep 2007 7:42:02 PM |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 2:24:18 PM
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Hi Infosponge
I have just managed to get hold of all the Palomino magazines from 1968 to date.
Here is a picture of Mrs. Munday's Sundowner from the Spring 1973 magazine:
[img][/ihttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1020/1422595999_2bc50c4835_m.jpgmg]
It says in the advert that Sundowner was born 1961 and was by Stargard out of Tormella (AHSB)Bred from Canadian imported stock). He was 15.2hh Plaomino and his stud fee was £40 in 1973.
I have come across loads of pictures from these threads including of Shepley Sundancer and Cromer Cornetta so I will try to post them when I am next on line.
Best wishes
Debbie |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 3:35:30 PM
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Wow Debbie that's fantastic!!
Unfortunately I can't get the photo to appear - at the mo its saying image unavailable but having such good comfirmation on the breeding etc. is super on its own!
The foal that I have agreed to buy is still with Cromer Cornetta so I have taken photos of her but it will be interesting to see what you come up with when you get a chance to post these pictures you have found.
Thanks loads,
Chris |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 6:37:28 PM
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Will try again.
It is working on the preview so hopefully you can see him this time!
Debbie |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 8:47:13 PM
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| WOW another one for the collection..keep them coming.... I'm a bit confused now, Stargard is AHSB & Pure Bred Arab, so what is the dam????????....is she AHSB as well and where's the rest of her breeding...come on folks we need it.....Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 22 Sep 2007 8:53:30 PM |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 11:55:44 PM
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There's no registered purebred Arab mare named Tormella, she must be a PB/PBA (?) for passing through the pal-color.. me think!
Bia |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 3:17:05 PM
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Echo Sue's last post - though I'm being a bit greedy with everyone's time as you have already helped me tremendously.
It's funny I said to my husband I don't think I could have as much interest in my own family tree but I reckon that's through fear of what you might find out, at least with the horses you know you're pretty safe!
Chris |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 5:14:00 PM
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Hi Sue and Infosponge
Have just found another advert for Sundowner and it makes it clearer. It says Sundowner is by Stargard AHSB out of Tormella (Canadian imported mare). As Sundowner was 15.2hh I think it is highly likely that Tormella was at least part saddlebred. From these magazines it is clear that there were quite a few big palomino Saddlebreds around - both Roundhills, Moonshine and a stud called Lexington seem to have had a lot of big stallions. Lexington imported a whole string from Canada including Goldmount Be-bop and Macks High Stepper who look absolutely gorgeous.
Have also found an advert (but sadly no photo) for Palais de Danse. It says it was 15.2hh palomino stallion "needing no introduction, sire of many winners including the very beautiful Sovereign Isadora, who has won campionships in-hand is is now doing extremely well in the jumping world." He was owned by the Sovereign Stud, Wood Lane, Mobberley, Cheshire, who also stood Indrani at that time.
Debbie |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 5:38:51 PM
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Hi Infosponge
The boys are watching Man Utd so I have found a few more pictures for you
This is Shepley Sundancer taken from Summer/Autumn 1999 palomino magazine (an historical article about Shepley stud):
This is Cromer Carramax from Winter 1988:
And these are 2 of Cromer Chandelier from Spring and Winter 1977:
Sorry - Flikr not working at the moment but have posted this anyway to remind me.
Debbie |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
Edited by - saddlebred on 28 Oct 2007 12:03:18 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 11:25:01 AM
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Added Sundowners pic to allbreeds.
and is his sire Stargard AHSR ( and NOT Starguard) this will be confirmed when we have info from PBAR Vol V or VI... OK
Is Dancing Gold the one sired by Irish Dance ????.
Still want info on Widdicomb Fair's Dam.???????
Still Need more help from PBAR Vo. V & VI...please for all those mares used for breeding these palomino's.
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 24 Sep 2007 11:27:02 AM |
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 12:58:54 PM
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Hi everyone,
Only got a mo so I've got to be brief!
Just hit gold! Jen from the Palomino Society has just emailed me cofirming all your findings about Sundowner's relatives are correct and to put the icing on the cake - Shepley Sundancer's mum was a mare called Vanity Fair who was apparently NPS registered.
I assume NPS is National Pony Society but haven't had time to work out more.
Got to go now but thanks again you were spot on!
Chris |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 8:30:11 PM
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| Hi, Could you just take a mo and check what you've written, are you sure that Shepley Sundancer was out of Vanity Fair (NPS).??????? Sue |
Sue
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 8:47:38 PM
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Eh ? 
That cant be right , it definately said her dam was Sunshine in the Cromer article ! 
Just read you other post , what you meant to say is Vanity Fair is Widdicombe Fair`s dam & not Shepley Sundancers ! |
     
Brixham (South Devon ) |
Edited by - sarahlock on 25 Sep 2007 8:56:16 PM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 9:02:42 PM
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Hi everyone,
Just testing! Sorry total blonde with grey hairs moment! I meant to say Widdicombe Fair's mum was Vanity Fair.
I'll put it down to haste and excitement you may, however, think otherwise!
Chris |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 09:18:18 AM
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| Have entered Vanity Fair as the dam, but, we now need to confirm what breeding she has by checking the NPS register....I'm hoping that Ronnie will come back & help with this....Sue |
Sue
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 5:37:44 PM
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Sue,
Thanks for putting her in place - if Ronnie can come up with something that would be great!
Going away for a few days so after today the sponge won't be soaking up so much information but I will check to see any activity when I get back.
Thanks again,
Chris |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 07:05:21 AM
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Hi Infosponge
These are the photos that wouldnt upload last time.
This is Shepley Sundancer taken from Summer/Autumn 1999 palomino magazine (an historical article about Shepley stud):
This is Cromer Carramax from Winter 1988:
And these are 2 of Cromer Chandelier from Spring and Winter 1977:
I noticed that the second picture of Chandelier says that he was by Kimberley Sundowner which re-states the point made earlier that he was the same horse as Sundowner.
Happy hunting with your other piccies.
Debbie
Debbie |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 10:51:27 AM
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I have Vol V1 of the PBA register, and I think it must have once been owned by the AHS as it has the signature of the then registrar on the front.
Anyway the entry for Sundowner (1961) has the word Kimberly inserted in hand writing above it, and also hand written is 50% and his MOA Number.. Also in the same volume is a filly called Kingsettle Maravedi (1958) Palomino by Li-Fellah's Kismet AASB Vol 5 out of Tormella bred by Mrs Howell, so Tormella has to be the palomino/cream as the stallion was chestnut.
There are often spelling errors for Starguard, even in the stud books. He was grey. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 5:00:59 PM
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Lynda, Thanks for the offer of help, I'm after breeding info for Eclipse(the dam of Sun Sprite 1969), mares used to breed Palomino's, it would be interesting to learn if any have entires in your VI, as I think they are Part Bred Arabs.
Lovely Pic of Shepley Sundowner, now added to his allbreeds pedigree,and its looking almost complete, he looks like my sort of horse, no wonder he got used so much..Any idea where this picture/show was, as the photographer was a Birmingham man and it may have been local to me...Shepley & Monclare.
Still searching pictures of any from Sundowner & Shepley Sundancers lines...so keep searching folks...
Still after someone with PBAR Vol.V. to help here....( Ihave X, LYnda has VI).
Sue
Thanks Sue... |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 27 Sep 2007 5:14:54 PM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 5:28:56 PM
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Hi everyone,
Special thanks to Debbie for the wonderful pics. It's really nice to see the actual horses behind all these names!
Following your information, Lynda, I have gone back to the BPS asking this time about Tormella and I will report back any further findings, so thank you for your information regarding Mrs Howell. Also, you no doubt understand what an MRO number is and may glean something from the 50% mentioned can you enlighten me?
Felicity at the BPS has been really helpful re. Vanity Fair. She has traced a pony called Vanity Fair to their Stud Book Vol.30 year 1956-1960. She was registered at that time as a Polo pony. The entry says that this chestnut mare was foaled in 1941 but at the time the stud book went to print was known to be deceased. The breeder was unknown but the owner was recorded as Mrs.E.Cox for whom there were no details. The sire was recorded as Brownie and the dam recorded as unknown.
Felicity also noticed that Widdicombe Fair was also registered as a Polo pony the following year and appears in Vol 31 of the BPS Stud book.
This information allowed me to find a Vanity Fair (1941) on existing Allbreeds data and here it says Vanity Fair was a 15hh chestnut Riding Show Hack by the TB Brownie (1931) with full breeding entry out of a TB called Mr. Toots mare (1937) for which there are at present no breeding entries.
So that was an excellant result all around.
I think most of my breeding gaps have now been filled thanks to all your efforts, however, if anyone happens to notice a photo or information about Cromer Caress (I have all her breeding now) I would love to see it and if anyone has the time to update allbreeds with this info above I would be greatful as I wouldn't trust myself to do it!
Thanks again,
Chris |
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