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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:04:44 AM
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I went up to my friends farm yesterday to pay them for the hay I got last weekend.
To diversify (quite some years ago now) they started up a small livery yard and although they were not horsy themselves they always take great interest and care in the horses on the yard. All are on DIY but they keep a very watchful eye on there four legged guests and they have some very knowledgeable owners there too.
One of the horses came down with an attack of laminitis. I was talking to the owner one day when she passed my house and she said how she had had to put her horse on box rest no grass etc and hopefuly that would get it under control. That was a couple of months ago.
As I was pulling into the farm this owner was driving out, so as you do once I pulled up said I had seen her and asked how her horse was doing at which point my friend took me to see him.
What I was confronted with shocked me, dispite having a rug on you could see this horse was painfully thin, dull eyes and generally down. My friend pointed out that the owner has carried out to the letter what the vet has told her to do which is practically starve the poor animal. She has had the vet out nearly every week and twice this week and the vet is "over the moon with his progress".
My friend had to walk away yesterday when the vet was there as the owner pointed out that the horses has hardly eaten anything for nearly ten days the vet said that was fine because just like yourself if you go on a diet your stomach shrinks. The vet has said that he will never be able to go out and graze normally but hopefully they could build up to 2 or 3 fifteen minute sessions a day !. bearing in mind that due to ring bone this horse can nolonger be ridden what sort of life is this ?
My friend was visually upset yesterday at the situation, she said she had fully expected the vet to suggets having the horse PTS but no. When the owner pointed out the horse looked down she suggested he might have a virus, suggested have yet more blood tests and gave it a course of antibiotics. She asked me what I thought and I have to say I was lost for words. I pointed out that I have several friend with horses that suffer from laminitus and all of them are experianced owners and manage the situation with out there horses being starved.
What can she do the owner is following what the vet says and the vet is over the moon.
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..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
Edited by - anne on 19 Aug 2007 5:53:53 PM
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:15:04 AM
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| All knowledgable advice on laminitis stresses that the horse must not be starved. This vet does not sound knowledgeable,to put it mildly, and it is hard to understand how any vet is not extremely alarmed to hear a horse has eaten nothing for ten days. Perhaps if your friend directs this owner to the Laminitis Trust---website and telephone help line----they will put her on the right track and she will realise she has to change her vet. |
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Geena
Platinum Member
England
1510 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:17:49 AM
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| How sad I am so sorry for you having to witness this horse and I feel so sorry for the horse. can they not pursude the horse owner to get a second oppinion from another vets practice? |
  
Zebedee |
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pleasures
Gold Member
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:19:38 AM
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CHANGE VETS!!!
I have experienced and heard so many people telling of vets saying do a, b and c when anyone who has ever kept a horse would do x, y and z.
One 'vet' round here diagnosed a brain tumor because a mare jumped out of a ring over the edge ropes, he was so convincing the horse was pts. My novice daughter used to ride that mare before she was put on loan, (to a novice, new home, no other horses kept there) very forward going but in all other respects a perfectly normal pony.
Your friend should look up all the modern research on laminitis, and starvation went out with the ark.
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pleasures
Gold Member
United Kingdom
781 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:23:58 AM
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Sorry I apologise that sounded very harsh but I do get annoyed when so called knowledgeable people put innocent folk who are supposed to be guided by them in an impossible position, It must be heart breaking to witness this going on I hope that your friend gets some other advice as soon as possible and that her horse is not longer suffering in this way
Sue |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:28:44 AM
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I think one or two of the more experianced owners have already suggested a second opinion but so far the owner seems set on following the advice of the vet the web site might be a good plan.
Pleasure it is not my friends horse but one on her yard |
..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:31:16 AM
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Get your friend to contact the Laminitis Clinic
http://www.laminitisclinic.org/
I have copied this from their site about what NOT to do
Don't starve the animal. Feed according to the animals bodily condition. Hay and bran alone provide a poor diet for horses and ponies. If the animal needs to be dieted do so gradually using a combination of alfalfa chop, straw chop, soaked sugar beet, hay and Formula4 Feet supplement. Beware of rapidly dieting very fat or pregnant ponies, they may develop hyperlipidaemia which is often more serious than the original laminitis.
Hope its ok to paste that here, if not I will remove it.
Try and convince your friend to get a different vet out for a second opinion as well.
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Heléna
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:42:22 AM
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OK, I'm going to make myself really unpopular here and say the YO (or you) should phone RSPCA or ILPH. I've got laminitics myself, and yes one of them will get pretty thin (she's got Cushings nd it is a nightmare to keep her weight right) but there's a difference between trying to manage Cushings and starving a horse. At the least, they might be able to make the owner see she needs to change the way she's doing things.
The vet could be right that the horse won't be able to go out on normal grass again, that can be managed with a system of tracks, pens, surfaces etc and isn't the end of the world - my Cushings sufferer goes out on my fields when they are totally bare and is yarded when there's a chance of there being good grass. But starving is so far from the correct way to treat laminitis, the vet needs a good shaking and the owner needs to get a second opinion. The horse should be fed 1.5 - 2% of bodyweight in hay (ideally soaked for up to 12 hours to remove sugar) to achieve a steady weight loss without starvation.
The MetabolicHorse group on Yahoo Groups has excellent advice on diet for laminitis, if possible could the YO point the owner in that direction if she has internet access? Think it's http://groups.yahoo.com then search for TheMetabolicHorse. |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 09:47:20 AM
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Good God!!!!!!!!
Some people shouldnt have animals and this so called vet should know
better.
It scares me to see and hear that this still goes on, we had it near
me with a stupid woman who thought she knew it all and when told her
horses were at serious risk from Laminitis she locked them both in a stable and gave them 1 pack, yes 1 pack of hay between them a day to
starve the weight of them because some knowledgable person told her
to do so. After I interviened and told her she decided to put them back out in the field 24/7 and left them there and guess what, one of
them came down with the most horrendous Laminitis earlier this summer
and it took her 3 days to get the vet out (my vet) I told her if she
didnt get the vet out then I would report her to the ILPH for gross
neglect and cruelty.
They have both been in all summer and now she has turned them both out in the field 24/7 again. I am keeping a careful eye on these
horses and I will report her if I think they are not being looked after.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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bexr
Gold Member
England
818 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 10:32:32 AM
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| What an awful situation. Your friend should get the YO to get another vet to this horse, if this horse dies from starvation under the new laws she will be just as liable as the horse's owner. There are so many ways of keeping lamintics off high sugared grass, like grazing under trees, grazing with sheep. Hope someone can make her see sense before it's to late. |
Bex |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 10:32:58 AM
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Horses produce the equivelent of 9 buckets of bile a day to digest their food. If they are not eating can you imagine how ill they would feel? They need to eat little and often. I would reccommend Roger Hatch for a supplement to aid the horse during the laminitus.Change of vet is also a good idea.Good luck
Edited to ad he will probaly get stomach ulsers to if he's not sorted soon |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 17 Aug 2007 11:35:58 AM |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 10:36:40 AM
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| GET A SECOND OPINION ....FAST! This poor animal needs to be seen by a vet who is upto date with Lami/treatment not one in the dark ages!! Show your friend these responses as I,( and I am sure many many others on here ),am very experienced with the current treatments and am horrified by what advice she has recieved. Do keep us informed. Polly |
   
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 10:57:38 AM
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Get another vet as everyone else has said. I would also get a barefoot practitioner...one who has trained under Jamie Jackson and promotes Paddock Paradise. These people understand the horse so well and the laminitic situation.
When I first moved to Aberdeenshire all my horses came up together including a Welsh Sec C pony for you youngest daughter. He arrived on a Friday with the others on the lorry straight from the people we bought him from.....horribly fat and laminitic. I had arranged a young farrier to come out on the Monday Morning. He went through me because of the state of the pony, until I reassured him that I had only got him, so he said that he had arrived with me laminitic as it couldnt be so bad in a few days.
He advised me to work him and reduce his hay, or put him on limited grazing, but work him. Indeed not being one who has ever dealt with laminitis and totaly freaked at having to deal with it I did exactly as he said. I allowed the pony out in a small strip of very poor short grazing with hay in a very small holed haynet (Haylage net). I worked him 3 times a day for about 20 mins each and every day. He was lunged and ridden each day bearing in mind this pony was pointing and had blood round his hooves.
When the farrier came back 6-8 weeks later he was delighted and said that it wasn't often people did as they were told and that there was no sign of the laminitis and the pony looked fit and happy without the excess weight on that he had when he arrived. So, this pony survived and never in the 3 years with me took laminitis again. So, there is no need to starve any horse. Just manage them correctly.
Rant over!
Cate |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 11:31:43 AM
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| I have very limited knowledge of laminitis. Only what I have seen in the few years I have had Freddie but vets do seem to insist on practically starving the animals and insist on just a couple of slabs of hay over a 24 hr period, perhaps mixed with some straw OR v little hay and "they will eat their straw bed if they are hungry". I have actually witnessed one eating its shavings! as I say my knowledge is limited and I dont intervene, but it doesnt make sense that on the one hand horses are trickle feeders and should always have access to fibre and then fully contradict it by starving them because they have laminitis. |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 11:50:04 AM
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| I haven't read all of this thread but my instant thought was phone the vets practice and COMPLAIN to the head honcho! Explain that your a concerned on looker and if something isn't done then you will phone the RSPCA, BHS or who ever! |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:18:59 PM
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Can't believe some peoples reactions to this terrible condition, I attach my current topic as title misleading which is regarding the same subject but this time the yo is behaving in a totally irresponsible manner.
http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=20478
Jen
ps don't bother reading most of first page as to do with yards but second and last page to do with the so called 'treatment' of lami |
     
Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
Edited by - jaj on 17 Aug 2007 12:21:16 PM |
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Vicki M
Silver Member
England
294 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:34:26 PM
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Sounds to me the vet isn't really interested in the welfare of the animal but the welfare of the bank balance!!!
Get another vet.
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Vicki M
Al Karif Arabians |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:35:01 PM
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I think it is about time that there was an ombudsman to protect the public and their animals against vets, that are clearly behind the times with research.
It wasn't too long ago that my friend asked me to look at her mare as she thought she didn't look right. As soon as I saw her I said that it looked like the early stages of Laminitis and to get a vet immediately. She called her so called vet who advised her to give her horse bute and he would come out and see her on Monday. This was on a FRIDAY evening!!!
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:44:12 PM
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you are only supposed to diet the horse (not starve)if its really fat and when the horse is at a good weight (not too fat nor thin)then they can be fed hay as much as they like or need and i always thought that once the laminitis is gone they can be turned out on dry days for as long as they like and only to bring them in when its raining. and if they are that worried about turning the horse out at grass why not turn out in a school as once the initial symptoms have gone then exercise is good for lami. Sounds like this vet is clueless |
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Sasha Melia
Gold Member
England
1333 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:48:16 PM
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| I work for the market leading feed manufacturer and we produce a couple of well known feeds that are laminitis trust approved. We get a lot of people calling our careline for advice on laminitis and as many people have already have mentioned above we would NEVER advise that a horse with laminitis be starved! This causes all sorts of other health problems such as stomach ulcers for starters. This horse needs to be seen by another vet that knows what they are talking about. |
www.facebook.com/MukhtarIbnEternity
www.mukhtaribneternity.co.uk
     
****************************SILHOUETTE ARABIANS****************************
Home of Mukhtar Ibn Eternity (Eternity Ibn Navarrone-D x Monsoon by Djammal) AKA Mooky! |
Edited by - Sasha Melia on 17 Aug 2007 12:53:15 PM |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 12:50:24 PM
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| Also they want to be carefull that the horse does not get colic, a friend of mines horse developed laminitis so she put him in and starved him his insides all stopped working because of the sudden change of diet and no food to keep him working properly, he got colic |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 1:54:29 PM
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I know what you mean about clueless vets, when my mare with Cushigns had bad laminitis a couple of years ago I got the vet (I knew how to deal with the laminitis as she'd had insulin resistance problems for a few years but had run out of bute so had to have a visit). The first thing he said was it can't be laminitis as I've got Arabs and they never get it. Then again it also took me over a year to convince the vet that she had Cushings and needed drugs for it.
You may need to watch how hay is fed though, for a laminitis prone horse - I have to soak it for 3 of mine as even on a dry, bare field if fed ad lib dry hay they can start to get symptoms of the start laminitis. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 2:11:34 PM
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I understand from the Laminitis Trust website, that unfortunately Arabs have a far higher mortality rate from laminitis than any other breed .
I must say, our vet has been fantastic with my friends laminitic Arab mare, his advice has been spot on ~ it is the YO that has all the crazy ideas on how to treat it  .
Jen
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 2:33:57 PM
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jaj, that is sadly true.
I am thankful that my vet is wonderful, only does horses and has 3 other vets working for him, he does all the racing yards and also
vets the Grand National and races at Aintree, He is very experienced
in all things equine and I trust him with my horse more than any other vet I have ever used.
He is not *Bullet happy* either, when my mare was diagnosed with Cushings he was extremely helpful and fought long and hard to save her from her last deadly bout of Laminitis, he said that day when he
put her to sleep, that it is now the top killer in equines and it is
very worrying, some people are ignorant to the fact that it is *A Killer*.
I hope the owner of this horse does something quickly or it could
lead to another statistic.
Janet |
Sunny Cheshire |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 3:44:08 PM
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Thank you all for you replies
Although I do not have a lot of experiance of laminitis you have all backed up my reaction that this could not be the right way of dealing with it.
My friend (the YO) caught the owner this morning when she came to see to her horse and pointed out that she felt the horse was at risk and that she (the owner) must seek further advise, as my friend was not willing to stand by and watch this horse suffer. My friend did mention that she would if necessary call in the RSPCA for a second opinion.
The sad thing is the girl that owns the horse is a really nice girl and would do and spend anything on her horse. It was diagnosed with ring bone some time ago and she had no problem accepting that she could no longer ride him and would keep him as a big pet.
My friend is also going to catch the owner again tonight and give her the web site address etc you have all given me and is going to pass on the fact that many people have backed up her opinion that this is not the way to deal with this problem.
I must point out that this horse has had access to hay for the past week but is showing very little interest in it. it is the opinion of my friend and I must agree with her that this horse seems to of given up on life himself. |
..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
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