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geegee
Platinum Member
 England
3682 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 1:40:25 PM
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It's so difficult to know who to trust.....I relocated about two years ago and have been using the vet to do the horses teeth but havn't been convinced that the job has been done correctly so I managed to get an Equine dentist out yesterday.
All went well with 3 of them but Minuette was totally stressed out by it all and the dentist said that he would have to come back when she had been sedated by the vet. He informed me that the job was 1/4 done and only knocked £5 off of the full charge....I asked him if I would be charged fully for the next visit and he said yes.
I was a bit miffed and could kick myself for not saying anything. Now I have to pay again!
Added to the fact that I am trying to do things "naturally", following natural horsemanship and am proud of the bond that I have with my horses but seeing the whites of their eyes yesterday was really upsetting. 3 of them tolerated the procedure very well but were still frightened by it all.
I know they have to be done but should they be sedated regardless? Am I just being a paranoid owner?
(Don't get me wrong, I am not slating the dentist for the way he treated my horses. He was very good and handled them well, considering).
The dentist did confirm that the horses needed more work than usual as, in his opinion, vets are not qualified to do dental work....so hopefully next time won't be as stressful?
Any thoughts?
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Sheena
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1810 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 2:44:02 PM
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Lisa,
I have a fabulous dentist that shows you the work he has done and says what he is doing and why - all mine from weanlings to adults and those that have come to me for behavioural training have been done without gags and on a heradcollar and lead rope. (half the time I feel like a spare part!) They don't stress and he really takes his time, the worst i've seen them do is lean backwards. Where abouts are you based??
Alicia |
Alicia
     
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 2:45:17 PM
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Where are you based, I have a brilliant dentist who knows his stuff
and his very very good with them.
I am in Cheshire if that is any help.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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leezee26
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 2:50:22 PM
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Hi Lisa, Im sorry things went a bit wrong and I do know where you are coming from. As a qualified equine dentist who has been working for 9 years in Suffolk, I can see both sides of the coin. It is very difficult sometimes as although you may not suceed in doing a full job on a horse you may well spend half and hour or more trying! It is incredibly hard work and unfortunately as an owner you may feel that although you paid you havent had the job fully done, and then have to pay again. But from our point of view we have tried and by the sound of it your chap remained calm with your horse, but she was having none of it.
He was honest with you saying he wants her sedated so he can do a thorough job without stressing the animal out. Arabs, do tend to have a few more probs due to being so narrow, and with their sensitive natures do need a little time spent initially to gently pursuade them whats coming next really isnt so bad.
You may find that as your horse was sore it felt like this chap was making it worse and once shes been done sedated and the probs have been taken away she may well be fine unsedated next time?
It is frustrating for us when we get a difficult horse, especially if you do spend alot of time on it, usually being pushed about so the old wrists get bashed a bit and then not to be able to fulfill a job first time what do you do? Its still a good amount of time taken up plus the physical exertion! I come across many people who tell me the last dentist beat the horse up or spent 5 mins then charged them a fortune and that is wholly wrong. He is right in the fact that generally vets dont spend a lot of time and if he had quite alot to sort then he had to pull them about a bit. Try to relax about it as by the sound of it this dentist sounds to be one of the good gang. Unfortunately we all have bills to pay and with blades costing over £70 each if we have spent considerable time on a horse even if we couldnt do it all it is still time for us, we are of course all different in how we charge. I hope it all goes well next time. Best wishes, Leigh |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 3:17:55 PM
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I had my lot done not too long ago, they were all sedated apart from my gelding, who i know is o.k with it, but i thinl next time i'll get him sedated.
I do prefer sedation when doing their teeth, and would always to use it, a) safety, b) it must be slightly uncomfortable for the horse
Imagine going to your dentist to have stuff done without using anything
jmo |
pagey |
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Adara_Arabians
Gold Member
England
736 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 4:33:03 PM
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| My friend is a brilliant dentist and travels round Essex and surrounding areas. Found the vet was never as good and i think someone once told me they only spend around 1 week learning about teeth in their whole course |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 6:01:47 PM
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For years I had the same quandary between dentist and vet, with dentists saying vets don't know what they are doing etc. etc. A lot of "gp" vets don't know what they are doing, but there are a lot of bad dentists out there as well. Then I heard about a guy from New Zealand who was a vet who had specialised in dentistry---that was all he did, travelled around free lance and had a great relationship with all the vets whose patients he treated---by and large non specialist vets hate doing teeth!!!, and I just breathed a sigh of relief. He always routinely sedated evrybody, which was in itself a relief to me---I had nightmares thinking about what a horse could do to itself if it really freaked out with a huge metal gag in its mouth. And like has been mentioned above he showed me in detail what was wrong, what he was doing and why. Because they were sedated he could take the time to do that and do his job properly.
Then he went back to New Zealand
As it happens I was looking for a new vet at the same time because mine had retired, and I now use an equine only vet, who has done extra certificates in dentistry, and I have been very happy with his treatment of their teeth. I always get him to sedate them and he always shows me everything he is doing and why. I personally wouldn't let anyone near my horses' teeth who didn't. I have heard so many horror stories---in my opinion more permanent damage can be done by over enthusiatic routine dental treatment which some, and I am sure it is only some, dentists do, than the ineffectual twiddling that some, and again only some, vets are guilty of. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 7:41:20 PM
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We have a wonderful equine dentist - used him for years...hes so good! He even appeared on a charity farming calendar a couple of years ago........beautiful view of his pert bare bum!! I thought I had kept it ....but sadly can't find the picci anywhere!
Judith |
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Nuttybabez
Gold Member
England
522 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 8:16:09 PM
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The vet does mine and he is very good.
I have all of mine sedated just to make it a less stressful experience. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 8:32:19 PM
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Judith you really make me laugh! How can you look him in the eye as it were when he knows you have seen him in the buff  !
I also have my mare sedated and the vet is very careful with her with no ill effects.
jen
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 8:47:45 PM
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Thanks for your replies. I have taken all your comments on board, especially Judith's Sadly I don't think that this chap would have had the same effect
Leigh - I appreciate your comments, especially as you are an Equine dentist.
As I said, I had no problem with the way that he handled the horses and after thinking more about it, I realise that he had alot of work to do and I appreciate that he did stop for Minuette as he could easily have turned it into a fighting match, which is what I DEFINATELY would not have liked to see......
Thanks again |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 8:58:09 PM
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| Jen - hes a friend of ours - even had one of Bellas puppies! & hes bum isn't half nice |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 9:13:27 PM
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| Gossy - he travells from Mid Wales up & into Lancs etc I think - hes wonderful - so good with neds also! Where are you?? |
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Edited by - Judith S on 24 Apr 2007 9:14:31 PM |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 9:16:03 PM
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The vet does Freddie's and he has always been sedated. Although I had my doubts if it was necessary, I believed that it enabled him to do a better job and went along with it. When Freddie was poorly at Christmas and we thought it may have been teeth orientated a different vet came out and examined his mouth thoroughly and gave the rest of him the once over. When he couldnt find anything he booked Freddie in with the vet that does the teeth for the following day. Freddie was done without sedation. When I asked why - "because he had such good reports back yesterday".
I have never had any problems with the vet doing Freds teeth and will continue. I always knew sedation wasn't necessary and I am so proud of my boy!! My belief's (probably wrong) are that their teeth are not as sensitive as we think, whereas their tummys are!! Therefore sedation makes no difference for them because the pulling about and noise is just the same, albeit if they are stressful, then of course sedation is the best option.
Hope that makes some kind of sense?
Sandie |
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leezee26
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 11:05:31 AM
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Sedation always makes our job easier, and there is no excuse then not to do it properly. As horses have far stronger teeth than our own with a far greater mass they really dont feel any sensitivity when you are floating the teeth, although you can cause pain when using a burr(Motorised rasp)especially on the incisors, this is why I prefer the manual rasps as I know exactly how much Im taking off with each pull. Sadly there is a new craze with some so called dentists, called 'slicking' where they take the molar tables so far back, they feel like marbles! This in my opinion is crazy,especially in the older horse whos teeth will not erupt as quickly as a younger animal. I was called out to a horse recently, who had had this done, and the owner, who was a friend of the dentist who did it, said he told them he probably wouldnt be able to eat hay! Does that sound right to any of you??? Please be aware, especially if you have an older animal, as once you start playing about with that you start mucking around with the digestive system, which can be disasterous. And sadly we cant put teeth back! With regard to sedating, this is fine but if you have an older animal it will carry a far higher risk as with all aneasthetics and sedatives, or if your horse has a heart murmur.
I have been qualified for 9 years, and in that time have had maybe 10 horses sedated as they were so uncomfortable that they 'played up' and that is out of maybe over 3ooo horses I have done. I firmly believe that if you take the time out to bond with the horse prior to permorming any dentistry that counts you in good stead, and I would rather spend 2 hours getting the horse calm, then bull dozing straight in there! This maybe is why I get all the referrals from vets and other dentists who it appears cant be bothered to spend the time. As with all professions, there are many good dentists out there but also many cowboys too! I studied and graduated in the USA, and I still believe it is the only place to learn, of course you have to take part in the courses over here, but so far, I havent met anyone I would be happy to recommend that has been UK trained.
I am so pleased however that dental awarness is on the up as I am sure you are all aware that it doesnt just affect your horse mouth, but the whole of its body, and certainly when I first trained, I thought i knew a fair bit about teeth as I had studied and done BHS stages but I can tell you that I hung my head in shame when I first went to Dental school, I knew nothing!!
I was so ashamed of myself..So at least now I have made it up.
Hope this helps. Leigh Shayle EDT |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 11:21:29 AM
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I must admit that I have never had to sedate any of mine but my dentist is great and spends lots of time getting there confidance up
Tizzy My Anglo Arab would not stand the gag anywhere near her and he was more than willing to spend the extra time needed to sort her out without using one. When he saw Tara for the first time and her first experiance of a dentist again he spent loads of time so the experiance was as pleasent as a dentist visit could be.
No probs with Ghost as he always rubs mints on the rasp anything for sweets with my boy
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 11:28:54 AM
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Leigh, that was lovely to read!! I have to say I was surprised with my vet's "bedside manner" after all the years of sedating and only wish he has listened to me and tried before. He spoke to him calmly and reassured him, the whole proceedure was very relaxed. He even took the gadget out of Fred's mouth and let him have a breather midway. I will definately be noting what you say about "older horses" and hope that we can continue without sedation. No mechanical implements are used and I wouldnt want them. Thankfully he is very "old school".
Sandie |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 11:43:26 AM
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Leigh,
Slicking sounds very much like 'the Performance Float' as they call it in my area (Hampshire). I attended a talk given by an EDT and I have to say I was HORRIED when he produced a skull with a 'Performance Float' The 1st Molar had also been severly bit seated, with all surfaces oncluding the inner and outer sides of the molar rasped smooth. At the time I expressed my concern about how much tooth is removed and how it would effect the horse as they got older to be told that - in so many words because I can't remember the exact words but something like. 'That is why it is called a Performace Float - to help the horse perform to the best of its ability, the owner would not be interested in the horse when it can not longer perform'.
Read into that what you will ......
My EDT is worth his weight in gold 
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Hampshire |
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leezee26
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 4:14:46 PM
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It is a worry, I have to say as I see too much of professionals not caring about the horse just wanting to try out their new gadget! The same goes for bit seats, I come across a lot of horses where other dentists have just installed them without asking the owners consent or indeed finding out what kind of bit the horse goes in...which can cause many problems. Ever since I qualified I have a mantra I go by 'Never do a job on someone elses horse that I wouldnt do on my own', I also have a set amount I do in a day, and most importantly I listen to the owner, as no-one knows your horse the way you do. I would rather do one horse a day and do that one well than do 20 and take shortcuts.
I let my clients feel before and after I have done their horses as not only does it give more understanding about teeth but also can give the owner a good understanding as to why their horse may have behave the way they did? Lx
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louisejo
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1313 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 4:20:08 PM
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Leigh, i completely agree with everything you have said. My boy doesn't tolerate too much dentisty so is usually sedated, but he had just turne 20 so i worry about future dentist visits.
I wish you were closer to Kent, you sound lovely! |
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leezee26
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 4:33:36 PM
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| Thank you Louise, I may not have a nice bum but I do try! No seriously, I am a horse owner and have been for over 20 years, and just feel that if I can do my job well and impart some knowledge at the same time then its worth it but also I would not do anything that I wouldnt expect or do with my own horses. I would rather be known for the lovely lady who spent time with horses and people rather than the horse dentist who didnt care and just wanted to make money! Dont get me wrong we all have to earn a living but Id rather feel good about what I do. Well as I said to Gossy, we have a holiday livery here and fabulous forest and beach riding, so if you ever want to come and bring you boy for a holiday I am more than happy to see to toothy pegs then! Lx |
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louisejo
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1313 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 4:38:54 PM
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| Sounds brilliant, i will bear that in mind for the future, thanks. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 8:19:50 PM
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| Any one help with an uptodate telephone number of Debbie Hiscox, she's moved from her old address and can't find out her new number if anyone can help in the Kidderminster Area...Thanks.. |
Sue
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 8:47:37 PM
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I also have my vet to do mine - he is really good, the horses trust him, and if there are any probs it's not a wasted visit because he can sedate as necessary.
You have to realise that having Arabs - their mouths and teeth set are different - it's all to do with the tiny muzzles, tapering to wide jowl and dished heads - so be prepared |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 9:33:01 PM
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I feel such a plum!!!!
There I was having a rant about the fact that this chap had charged me almost full price for Minuette after only doing 1/4 of the job and I have only just sat down and looked at the paperwork and realised that he had charged extra on one of the others for a protruding molar.
Although now I am wondering why he didn't tell me that it would be extra as he gave me a price per horse before he came.
I have spoken to a couple of locals and they said this chap was extremely good and gave horses plenty of time. I just think in this instance perhaps he was in a bit of a rush....maybe he squeezed me in to do me a favour but it back fired a bit?
I am a bit torn now. Do I give him the benefit of the doubt and get Minuette sedated?
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2007 : 9:38:03 PM
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I think thats one only you can answer. What's your gut feeling? Put everything aside and say the job was finished, would you have him back again. If in doubt.........
sorry not much help
Sandie |
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