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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 10:24:16 PM
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Thanks Mandy.....How much would it be to set up a grading system, and to set up a like a breeders series....then breeders get the chance to show off potential stallions, and to have them independently assessed? How much interest would there be?
Also for mares....hmm, I may have to look into this!!!!! |
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mirage
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1457 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 06:50:59 AM
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| I think £40 a week is reasonable for the work involved and the responsibility of looking after someone else's horse. With regard to stud fees, there are some stud fees for endurance horses listed in a recent publication that are very reasonable but if you are breeding for an in hand prospect, expect to pay more for a horse that has won at major shows, either in the UK or internationally. |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 07:39:20 AM
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Hi Nikki,
I haven't found that the price of a stud fee has changed too much in the last 20 years, and even if the stud fee was high, if you proposed sending a good mare (one who had bred on well, had a good record, etc), owners would give you a substantial discount. There are many more stallions available now than there were 20 years ago, and though I would never use a stallion with no stock on the ground nor one with no record, if I liked a young stallion, I would see if I could book a mare for subsequent years at the same price - this is Nick's great idea, not mine!!
Sadly, people do breed without regard to what sphere the eventual foal is expected to compete in, and disregard the costs involved to get the foal on the gound too. For example, we had someone on the phone wanting to send a mare asking for a substantial discount as she said the stud fee was too expensive and couldn't be afforded; we told her to save up her pennies for the stud fee, etc, and had she worked out how much a foal was going to cost to rear - we didn't take the mare!
With the best will in the world, breeders circumtances do change and horses by your stallion have to be sold on. It's very disheartening and the more mares a stallion covers, the more sales there will be.
For me, the ideal is to be able to see stock by a stallion at one or two studs and therefore get a good idea of what traits the stallion passes on. I can then hopefully judge what mare to send.
Breeding is a very expensive business and I would really like to meet a breeder who say over a 5 year period, covers their costs - I need some tips  !!
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 08:24:29 AM
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I have in the past paid only 300 pounds for one of our country's top stallions. The owner felt that if she put her stud fee too high some the best mares in the country would be probibited from using her boy as many of these mares were owned by the small breeders.
As to the assessment scheme it has its good points but I have seen some stallions that do not look so wonderful and they have produced some fantastic stock. We must not forget how much is contributed by the mare. There was one very well known stallion who due an accident could never prove himself in performance but he produced some of the best performers in all fields. |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 09:26:44 AM
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I think that years ago the owners of Arabian Stallions were fairly well off.........sorry, not to say today's are not, but I think you get my drift here So standing a stallion at stud, one that cost a huge amount to import, buy or breed would have been easy for any wealthy owner not to want to be worried about visiting mares.....hence a big stud fee.
These studs were studs in the proper sense, huge. They would have had many of their own top quality mares to cover to see what that stallion produced without the need to have others coming in.
Times have changed and I think we are more a nation of small studs now, so there is a need to get visiting mares, and some owners do want a sensible payment for doing this too.
The livery is an individual thing, I would lump it with the stud fee, that way, hopefully it will get paidthe mare stays here till the fee is paid.
Sounds good on paper |
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 10:38:27 AM
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My very special maiden mare is also going to stud next week if all goes to plan, and must say I've found the stallion's fees to be amazing considering his qualities and achievements...she is a superstar so was looking for a husband who is also and found one at a fantastic fee 
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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 3:17:46 PM
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Hi i think there is performance testing for both arabs,anglos and partbreds with is run nasta national stallion performanse testing which the ahs use to grade their premium stallions.
if you look on ahs website on premium scheme all the correct information can be found there.
i know of one premium stallion that is of elite status with nasta and he is grade one with ahs. his name is olympus hale bob and is a gorgeous black stallion. if i had a mare i may be very very tempted to use him.
have a look at the ahs premium stallion web site well worth a look.
anna
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 5:18:12 PM
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Bryn..How many people actually use this system? Not many!
My mare is a premium graded mare with the AHS...and I am hoping to breed later this year, so I can have something to link me to her after she is gone...hopefully not for a long time yet! |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 9:35:01 PM
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Hi all
This is a very interesting subject, and although we are getting positive comments on stud fees not many are commenting on what thier stud keep fees are, which is what I think the original question was also about, I think £40 per week very reasonable and so do a few others but we have had no comment from larger studs as to whether this is normal, expensive, or damn cheap?
B (France) |
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kirsty
Gold Member
United Kingdom
713 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 9:52:18 PM
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Hi
I'm standing my young stallion at stud and his stud fee is £250 nffr and I'm charging £3 a day (£21 a week) for keep which I feel is reasonable. He is a young stallion and I will be running at a considerable loss this year by the time I have paid for website/advertising/paying someone to compete him (I will endurance him myself but I prefer not to jump so get someone else to do it for me)He will be Nasta graded when he is older hence me wanting him to jump. This is a great system but I'm not sure if it is the best system to use for grading arabs especially pure breds as they have to reach a high standard with jumping (especially if they are over 15hh) which not all arabs can do.
Kirsty |
   eric g jones  |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 10:05:36 PM
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Firstly I think £40.00 pound a week is a good price, even if a mare is out to grass there is alot of work involved with the covering and an awful lot of responsibilty when handling other peoples beloved animals. What people seem to forget is that covering mares is quite a dangerous thing to partake in. I for one will not allow a mare to run out with a stallion because injuries are far to common plus you can't be sure that the mare has been covered properly if at all... often the stallions in the pony world have cheaper stud fee's but the mares just run out with them so the stallion owners have nothing to do hence the cheaper stud fee's, then again they don't have as many mares leave in foal..... It is a very time consuming and precise job when done properly, but unfortunately some people seem to think it is just a walk in the park for the stallion owners and that they are just out to make money....I agree with nick you get what you pay for!!!!! |
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 10:44:09 PM
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| it is a lot of agro for the stallion owner. we have our stallion that we use on our own mares, we have had people interested and we have said ok bring the mare down we will service the mare they pay the yard owner the keep fees and will charge them 150 as end of day we will be looking after the mare and they will have a registerable foal at the end of it. but haven't advertised him as were not fussed bout making any money threw him by standing him, hes just like a big pet and is enjoyable to work with. stud fees these days are ridiculous some of them when we sent our mare to stud she was there for 8 weeks and the keep was 220 euros and the stud fee 200 euros which we thought was very resonable and we got a lovely horse at the end of it that we would never sell. |
    
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 10:44:41 PM
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I agree with Nick and Fiona,
I dont think some mare owners realise what is involved
Not only do you have to muck out the stable of a mare that is in season (always a mess), then there is the cost of haylage and bedding!
I think the minimum wage is about £5.20 per hour, we look after a mare for £5.50 per day!!!!!!!!! incl feed, bedding, teasing turnout,etc,
you have to put covering boots on a mare that has probably NEVER worn then before (GREAT FUN!) for the safety of the stallion and handler, and then breed the mare,
I would love to see ANYONE who thinks this is easy money try it!
Even if you have a well behaved stallion, you dont know how a mare is going to react! they may have had a bad experience the previous year
Take it from me I still get nervous when breeding,
We have bred two mares today and I am always glad when it is all over and horses and humans are safe!
If ANYONE would like to HAVE A GO please contact me at lmlyall5@hotmail.com
Lx
www.affinity-arabians.com
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 07:57:55 AM
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I totally agree Linda I pay my groom £5 an hour (and thats cheap) then the mares live like queens when they come here, they go out when mine go out, they come in when mine come in, if they are difficult with the other mares they have a shetland companion and a seperate field during the day, they are fed mucked out, cosseted all for £10 pounds a day, so there is no money in it for me but at least I am not out of pocket. But I seriously dont think you can look after a horse properly for less than that and if my horse was away at stud for less I would think they are not getting the full treatment ( sorry to those stallion owners who are trying to cut the costs down I am sure you do the best you can) but if you do it for less you WILL be out of pocket! This is one of the reasons I dont stand my boy at stud anymore it is just not worth the agro I have had well to do owners of mares who quibble about not paying for the pick up day because they will not be there all day! well I still have to muck out the stable ( and wash the floor, we do that before and after a horse has been here,) I still have to pay my groom and I still have to be here until the mare is collected, ( then having to keep my horses in to keep the said mare settled and not anxious till she goes). Please mare owners give us some thought.its not all fun and games! My stallions stud fee is high and then only avaliable to those who are serious about using him and have an interest in the bloodlines . |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
Edited by - LYNDILOU on 15 Apr 2007 08:07:41 AM |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 09:30:03 AM
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I agree totally with you Lynda and others about the costs and risks involved with standing a stallion at stud.......why bother?
But I think Nikki originally asked, why have Arabian stallions stud fees always been much higher than other breeds? She had noticed this from some older books, so they have always been high, she wondered why?
I may have got this wrong. |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 10:12:27 AM
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Yes Sue you are right, thats what Nikki asked for. In Holland the fee for the purebreds is higher then for the part breds for the same stallion, although I think that a good part bred foal is often more expensive than a purebred. Some studs ask very unrealistic prices I think and other good stallions are cheap, but do not have the advertising etc. behind them. Lila is in the UK at the mo to be bred to Shuwaiman Al Bahrain, with the travelling from Holland to Hereford and going back when she is in foal, I will have a very expensive foal, but this foal will be born to stay with me. So I do not care how much savings I have to put in to it.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 10:54:49 AM
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| You are right about the stud fees being being just as high in the past, I paid £1,000 plus VAT twice when I used WSA Charismma as a 3 year old unknown colt 14 years ago now, his stud fee is still the same and has been lower a few years back when I first got him (as promotion price) but people where getting fabulous foals and selling them for high prices , and I was getting diddley for my trouble) so now I dont care if people think its too high, is a yearling sold for £22,000 not worth it? because thats what has happened.[:0Y |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
Edited by - LYNDILOU on 15 Apr 2007 12:32:58 PM |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 10:55:04 AM
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I do think that some stallions have unrealistic stud fees for what they are. If the stallion is very special and has very special bloodlines then I think he justifies a high fee, if not tnen he doesn't. I confess that I breed for myself and not to sell and as my mares are SE I tend to pay VERY high fees as they seem to be dearer than other bloodlines (£1750 last year) but then I am getting the stallion I want. The keep fees are also high but if I get the foal I want I consider it money well spent. I don't breed many foals as not only can I not keep them all I can't afford the stallions I want too often! I have a really beautiful yearling filly and she would have cost me a lot more to buy in than it has cost me to breed her; had she not been so nice then she would have been a "loss maker" but that is the risk you take when you breed.
I am sure there are very nice stallions out there at a good price, my stallion is cheap because due to an injury to a leg as a youngster he hasn't been shown although I keep threatening to get him out and hope for the best on the day! I am hoping to have him backed this year and see if he is OK with that, if not and his leg doesn't stand up to working he will just remain at home with me.
Barbara |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 6:32:47 PM
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I can't see why people complain about keep fees! To keep a hunter in our area at livery will cost well in excess of £100 a week; grass livery, if you can get it, about £25. But as Fiona and others have said, it's not the easiest process having someone's strange mare which you have to treat with extreme consideration, and judge the season, and prepare for covering, and risk your stallion; it always takes two for covering if you don't have a stallion that you're prepared to run with the mares and some mares are VERY kicky even when well in season. There are huge risks involved. Do people think you cover just once and that's that?
I also agree that it's a rather tense business. While some mares are very easy to breed, others can be very difficult, if not dangerous.
I have often wondered why the fee is lower for part breds though, since these days, they fetch higher prices that pure breds! And the workload and risks are just as high! |
Roseanne |
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heathermcbreen
Platinum Member
England
2132 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 8:09:13 PM
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I dont think the keep fees are unreasonable at £40 but I do think stud fees are when they get over £500.00-£600.00. I know everyone takes the mickey out of the arab stallions that are racehorses and say they are not attractive but at least they have bloody well proved themselves as tough, brave, strong and fast. Most of these horses have stud fees of about £250-£300 and there is just as much work to do for these stallion owners as there is for stallion owners charging £1000.00+ for a stallion with a pretty face who looks fantastic on a bit of string. There is no absolute guarantee that you will get a perfect foal in any case. I only have a couple of ridden arab mares and I sold my colt as I thought the whole covering thing looked very scary, I appreciate it can be a very dodgy business. However I cant afford stud fees of over £500 when the foal may only be worth £1000 anyway. The only mare I can afford to breed from is my mini shetland and thats because I own her husband.
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 10:57:29 PM
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No one puts a mare out in a field and forgets about it,
And I have found that MOST mare owners want their mares in a
paddock of their own,
The mare has to be brought in and teased to check if she is in season!
She has to be booted up, and covered,
One person alone cannot do ALL of this!
So PLEASE be reasonable! the costs are not just about putting a mare in a field to eat grass!!!
Stud fees vary enormously! you either choose by price or what you REALLY want!
Either way there is something to suit EVERY pocket!
Lx |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 11:42:23 PM
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I think £40 is very cheap, almost too cheap in fact, I think that I would worry some corners were being cut. I want my precious mare to go away and be well cared for and I'm happy to stump up the money to ensure she gets that care !
Jen
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 09:15:42 AM
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No one has mentioned (I think, sorry if they have) continual field, stable, fencing maintenance, or insurance. It all adds up to overall costs for stallion owners.
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 10:50:40 AM
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Yes thankyou Sue, that was my question. And thankyou for reading it properly and answering it.
But this has now gone on to a different, more controversal topic(sp, big words there)lol
Gosh, didn't i open a can of worms.
O.k then, we've looked at it from a stallion owners point of view.
What about the mare owner? How can a mare owner possibly stand to even break even?
I must yet again stress, this is not me, having a whinge. My only gripe is £40a week grass keep, why not say, it's £15 a week, then £10a week to walk over and check your horse, and £10 a week for something else?
Mare owners have the same costs, they too pay for insurance, stables, fencing, rent or livery bills.
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pagey |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 1:49:14 PM
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I think keeping and especially breeding horses is a very expensive hobby.
Few people make a lot of money out of horses unless they are dealers, make supplies for horses (they are probably the wealthiest), or have particularly successful racehorses. I know people who work all the hours God sends and don't make enough to cover their costs. I'm fairly sure the small studs of the kind on Arabian Lines don't make much of a profit, if any.
I'd suggest that people standing their stallions at stud are getting a small amount of income in spring and summer to offset other costs of their farms, rather than making big money. There's a vast amount of overheads in just keeping horses, without even showing them and people regularly report spending over £200 just to show one horse at the Nationals.
It's also worth pointing out that getting your foal on the ground is only the beginning of your expense! We spend huge amounts on feed, bedding, vets' and insurance fees, registration, AHS society subscriptions, hay, grass keep (or maintenance if you own your own place), transport purchase, MOTs, diesel and maintenance, farriers, wormers, tack and rug repairs/cleaning/replacement and so on.
That's all to come once your foal is weaned, so if the stud fee and keep of the mare at stud is too much, it's worth questioning whether you can afford another horse.
Having said all that, I'm sure it would be a temptation that's hard to resist when you've got a beautiful, favourite mare!
I'm just being devil's advocate... |
Roseanne |
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