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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 12:09:03 PM
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she has her advertised on horsemart, so i just asked where she got her from, ive been looking at all the horses for sale to see if i spot a jabask arab |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 6:05:37 PM
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Just thought i would put some new pics of heather on
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JESSIEMAE
Gold Member
England
872 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 7:32:27 PM
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Rachel
Your mare looks gorgeous! What a credit to the work you have put in bringing her back! Well done.
Liza xx
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 7:35:30 PM
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Hi
Thanks, she is looking better and better since she had her teeth operated on Putting so much weight on |
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halona stud
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 08:08:39 AM
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I'm glad the operation on her teeth has worked, you must be so pleased. Is that her filly behind her?
Do you have the link for the arab on horse mart?
Clare |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 7:02:32 PM
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Hi
Yes thats her filly behind her but she went to her new home last saturday, very sad but a great home for her. I looked at heathers teeth yesterday to see where her galvayns groove is and its half way down her tooth, so doesnt that make her 15? |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 10:17:51 PM
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| Dakota Willow down to run at Wolverhampton on Saturday... |
Sue
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halona stud
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 6:08:41 PM
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Yes the Galvaynes Groove comes in at about 10 years old, is half way down at 15 and all the way down at 20 years old. If you look at the teeth from on top, they should no longer look oval but quite round and with a black dot in the middle for a horse of 15 years old. Whereas a twenty year olds teeth would be triangular. See below
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 11:10:55 PM
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Her galvyns groove makes her 15 then as its definately half way down, i would like to try and trace her foals but will be hard as they are not registered, here are some recent pics of heather, has she put weight on?
 
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 4:18:53 PM
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Shes looking good - well done Just get the feeling looking at her that she is older than 15......... |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 4:56:04 PM
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Hi,
Yes she does look older than 15 but she may have aged alot through all the neglect she has been through. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 5:13:49 PM
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| Shes got a lovely kind face - nice looking mare |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 5:19:43 PM
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She is a very kind mare, has such a lovely temperament |
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halona stud
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2007 : 10:36:54 AM
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| Just to let every know that the Arab Horse Society have finally got the results from Weatherbys and Crystal Leda is who she is supposed to be. A long time to sort all this out but well worth it in the end - thanks everyone for your help. |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2007 : 10:44:02 AM
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| excellent i cant afford to have heather done but as soon as i can i will be doing the same |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2007 : 1:37:09 PM
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| Clare, Congratulations & Great Result so pleased for you. Sue |
Sue
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CRserbask
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 10:13:18 AM
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Great news.
The vet has just had a look at Basky's teeth and is certain that he is at least 3 years old than he is meant to be. It makes me very suspicious!!! Does anyone know how easy is it to fake documents? I know teeth aren't an exact science but she seemed sure.His Galvayne’s Grove is all the way to the bottom and shouldn't be at 17 apparenlty. |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 10:16:17 AM
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| i wouldnt get a vet to age a horse i would get a dentist as vet are quite often wrong and im not 100% sure but i dont think the gavynes groove is 100% accurate, a dentist will look at the wear of the teeth. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 11:35:39 AM
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This very interesting article comes from H&H:
Can you age a horse by its teeth?
Karen Coumbe MRCVS
21 March, 2005
One advantage of passports for horses must be that, like an old-fashioned car logbook, they allow some basic facts and information about a horse to be available. When we acquire a new horse, or indeed consider so doing, we want to know as much as possible, including an accurate estimate of its age.
When a horse is examined for purchase, its age will be discussed and can be an important deciding factor. Regrettably, it can also be a source of dispute after a sale, usually when papers arrive contradicting the previously reported age, which is often based on an estimate from looking at the horse's teeth.
As a vet, I am always relieved and delighted if proper documentation from when the horse or pony was foaled is available. If you possess a complete record with a covering certificate, breeding and other information, you can be fairly confident that "what you see is what you get" with regard to age. Such documentation adds value to a horse and must increase confidence in any sale.
Unfortunately, any paperwork is only as good as whoever completed it, which is a snag with passports. The age provided by the owner or an estimate from the vet can end up in the passport, whether it is correct or not. Maybe the passport system will develop so that documents are issued to foals from birth, then follow them as they grow and move on. This will be more reliable than some of the unclear and confusing paperwork currently available.
If you do not know a horse's birthdate and there is no adequate paperwork, the animal's appearance and its teeth are all you have to go on. You would be hard-pressed to age most people accurately from looking at them, and the same has to be true of horses.
Some wear better than others due to all sorts of variations in individuals, their environment, breeding and feeding. We all know horses who look ancient. They have dipped backs, grey muzzles and are rather long in the tooth, yet may be significantly younger than they appear.
Similarly, some horses will be older than their appearance suggests. Blood horses such as Thoroughbreds tend to mature earlier. Ponies from mountain and moorland breeds and those stabled a lot or eating large amounts of coarse feed are likely to show more wear in their teeth, so there are inevitable inaccuracies in trying to age a horse by inspecting its teeth — never rely on the teeth to tell you the truth.
Horses do not read the textbooks, so the teeth do not always follow the standard pattern that has been used in ageing horses for centuries. Unfortunately, without documentation, they are the only things you have to go on, so it is worth being aware of the most useful indicators to make an informed guess.
If you try to age a horse by its teeth, the incisors (the most obviously visible front
teeth that sit in front of the bit) are the crucial ones to examine. In younger horses, it is possible to make a good estimate from the number of baby and adult teeth that have erupted or emerged from the gum. This is quite easy to establish in a three-year-old, for instance, where there will be two adult incisors in wear in the centre of the jaw and baby teeth on either side.
However, it is not impossible to confuse a two-year-old with all baby incisors and a
five-year-old with all adult incisors. In theory, the baby teeth are smaller and whiter, with a rounded gum line. But when you are looking at a single horse on its own, it can be tricky to decide how white and small the teeth actually are!
It is best to look for other clues such as the fact that the canine teeth or tushes,
small extra teeth at the side, will have appeared in a five-year-old stallion, most geldings and some mares. In the past, it was not unknown for unscrupulous vendors to file down or remove the tushes to make an older horse look younger.
Once all the adult incisors have emerged and are in wear, age determination by the teeth becomes more difficult and accuracy of age estimation falls. You need to study several different features of the front teeth that change as horses age. These include:
The angle of the incisors as viewed from the side: an old horse is truly long in the tooth with long, slanting incisors, whereas a younger horse will have fairly short, vertical teeth. But this gradually changes and does not enable the age to be pinpointed. A five-year-old will have an almost vertical line between bottom and top front teeth, while in a horse of more than 15 there is almost a right angle between these teeth.
Theoretically a seven-year-old hook will appear on the back edge of the corner incisor, ie the one towards the outside, but research has shown that this is really inconsistent. I see a lot of seven-year-old horses to be measured for height under the JMB (Joint Measurement Board) scheme at the moment and many do not have such a hook, even though they have clear documentation of their age.
Another vague area is the Galvaynes's groove, named after a Mr Galvayne, who wrote a book on ageing horses in Victorian times. He claimed he could accurately age horses up to the age of 30. The groove named after him, a brown streak again on the upper corner incisor tooth is said to first appear near the edge of the gum when a horse is about 10 years old, and gradually extends down the tooth to reach the bottom edge at around 20. It gives a rough guide that a horse is older, but is often different on the two sides of the mouth, so which side do you believe?
The complicated bit of ageing by the teeth involves looking at various indicators on the top biting surface of the lower front teeth. These include:
The shape of the grinding surface changes with increasing age, being fairly oval in the young horse, more rounded by middle age and smaller and triangular in old age; however, unless you have a yard of different horses to compare, it can be hard to judge this objectively.
There are different patterns on the incisor grinding surface, which all the books on ageing consider. These are the cup, mark and dental star, which vary with the horse's age. The cup is a dark coloured depression that appears in teeth that have just come through the gum. It is gradually worn away as the teeth wear down. Different books give different ages for this. The term "mark" refers to the area after the cup has worn away, while the dental star is a brown streak towards the front of the teeth, which becomes more circular and central in the older horse.
If a horse has to be aged by its teeth, it is important to look at all information available from the whole mouth rather than one single factor. Research in the past 10 years has shown that estimating the ages of horses up to five or six is reasonably accurate (85% correlation). Between seven and 10 it is less accurate (76% correlation to within a year of true age), so an allowance of two or three years either way may be acceptable in this age group. In horses aged over 10, estimates show even less correlation with the true age (less than 55% correlation within a year of true age).
The key point is that ageing by the teeth is not as simple, scientific or accurate as many suggest. The obvious answer is to follow the old advice to "never look a gift horse in the mouth". Track down its correct documentation instead and then check it!
This veterinary feature was first published in Horse & Hound (24 February, '05) and included a simple-to-follow teeth eruption timetable. To purchase a back issue contact (tel: 020 8532 3628).
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 12:29:09 PM
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| I agree with Molde,and think karen's article sums it all up,and I fee you should take at least another two persons views and especially horse dentist's before you jump to amy firm/flexable conclusion about your horses age by mouth, I think if you questioned the vet they would have to admit that after 'about' 9 years things get more & more difficult to be precise and an estimate is all you should expect. I bought an old riding horse in the market (£400) that looked like a 24 years old mouth, over shot and different on both sides of the mouth, later several took dentists comfirmed she was more like 17 years,and she went like a six year old. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 19 Nov 2007 12:39:20 PM |
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halona stud
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 1:10:19 PM
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Ditto - it is quite easy to be three years out with teenagers and older horses.
My hungarian warmblood is branded with HR (hungarian) 05 (his year of birth) and a unique number to him. I think this is an excellent idea as I will never be able to sell him as anything other than having been born in 2005 even if I do lose his passport or change 05 at say 08 in the passport, it is there on his neck for everyone to see (never clipped him so dont know what it looks like then but I guess you can still see it). Would stop so much fraud if we did something simular in this country. |
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Sigrid
Bronze Member
Belgium
69 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 12:04:55 PM
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An even better system is the freezebranding in the neck with the complete details : race, year of birth, studbook number, and country of studbook. This is done on my arab mare, and it is so easily readable ! She will never be mistaken for another horse, she is stamped as an arabian purebred, with her registration number she can be identified and her age is clear ! It is a very beautiful freezebranding, and looks almost like Arabian characteristics. It can not be altered by adding signs.It's the Kyro Kinetics system.
I find it so much better than the chip. Everyone can read the freezebranding, the horse can be recognized by all, which is easy if a horse is stolen. To read a chip, you need an instrument.
Unfortunatly, and only due to European regulations that see our dear horse as a meat supplier, in Belgium, all or horses must be chipped... and freezebranding is forbidden as it is supposed to be cruel to animals ! I am lucky that my mare was freezebranded abroad ! |
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showjump2003
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 7:02:28 PM
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| Sorry to bump a old thread. Only read the first page. Just to add I am also tracing the history of a horse owned by Peggy Wyn. I actually live in Pwllheli where most there horses come from. There are many half sisters and brothers to my horse locally. My mare is out of Bo Jabask and grandshire is GG Jabask. |
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moldequine
Gold Member
Wales
858 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 8:04:57 PM
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How interesting, we probably know who your horse is as we know all of the jabask horses. How old and what colour is yours?
Rachel xxx |
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