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joan
Bronze Member
72 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 07:56:40 AM
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What is your favourite method of breaking? especially those of you out there like LB and Varain who have produced winners at National Level?
At what age do you back? 3? 4? or later?
Do you back for a few months and then give a long rest & reback the next spring?
Have any of you tried the Parelli method of backing in the spring when your horse is only 2, (I know thats VERY young), giving all summer off and rebacking in Autumn of 2yr.
Then repeating in spring of 3rd yr for a little longer, rest all summer with a little bit of work in Autumn of 3rd year.
As a 4yr old ride all summer, rest all winter, then from spring of 5 yr old, go for it.
Whats everyones thoughts? especially those of you who consistantly win at the top levels.
Joan
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 08:43:35 AM
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I backed my Arab gelding using the Parelli method with great sucess.Once you learn the 7 games and can 'ride' them from the ground the rest comes easily for both you and your horse.
Regards
Debbie |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 12:39:55 PM
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| I've got to comment here! 2 is too young to break an arab in. Thoroughbred yes, arab no.Their bones and joints are not ready to deal with the stress involved in backing,3 is the earliest i've ever done an arab in.I've done all mine in the very boring English way over 6 weeks approx,but at the end of the six week or however long it took, i never had any problems really,because when i got on them i felt confident that they would understand what i wanted from them even if they did'nt want to do it!!Im not knocking the Monty Roberts /Parelli way of doing them ,its just that's the way ive allways done our horses. |
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joan
Bronze Member
72 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 12:52:58 PM
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Debbie
if you used the Parelli method, did you do the bit at 2,3 and 4?
Or did you just use Parelli techniques but not starting actually riding until 3, 4 or 5?
Joan |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 12:55:36 PM
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I agree with Libby, two is too young for any weight bearing........Arabians keep growing far beyond other breeds, Maybe the Parelli methods could adapt to the Arabian breed slightly later in years perhaps?
To follow a book blindly is questionable? .....I find all these other methods are an insult to our intelligence, sorry.
I, and lot's of others on this site have had horses for donkey's years!! we have never been cruel, or broken in our horses like old fashioned cowboys, which, I'm certain are where these methods were originally intended for,..... not us.
All fine if this is what works for you, but I feel the main stream of us often have to skirt around this issue of 'other' methods with great diplomacy, i.e. Libby saying she does not want to offend!....Well I don't want to offend, but I certainly don't want anyone new coming into horses think that the older style of breaking in a youngster is the wrong way...what ever works can only be the right way!
I think Suyen summed this all up very well, she say's it is just observation of your horse, the time to do so, and a genuine love and understanding of horses, full stop.
Sue..x |
Edited by - SueB on 05 Nov 2003 2:33:17 PM |
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gillsta
Silver Member
Scotland
272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 2:35:17 PM
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Yep I think two is a wee bit young. I follow the parelli way of doing things but as already mentioned it’s a bit to early for an Arab.
My friend backs her warm bloods at three but they are quite well developed. My boy is rising three I have been playing SOME of the parelli games with him. I often put the saddle and bridle on him and generally play about.
My other half takes him for long walks out, both on the road through fields, Tracks, Tractor sheds, infact as many interesting places as we can find. If he takes a paddy at something we just take the time to help him and convince him its not so scary. Just take it easy and try to enjoy the experience.
For me personally I enjoy the parelli way but I do respect that everyone has their own way of doing things. Go with what you feel is right. At the end of the day it’s up to you. Rome was not built in a day, and all good things come to those who wait. too many quotes for one day. GOOD LUCK.
Gill
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 3:49:12 PM
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Hi Joan and everyone else,
I didn't own my horse until he was 4. He had not been broken and had been badly treated(another story)
You can play Natural Horsemanship games from birth, I'm sure most of you have, whether it be Parelli,Monty methods or your own Natural Horsemanship.After all Natural Horsemanship is just knowing horses and common sense. It is also gained over time and totted up through your own experiences.I found when I started the Parelli course I was doing most of it naturally anyway,most of you would find that to. What Pat Parelli has done is written it down in a way that makes it easy to learn and makes the most sense.I personally would not have turned my horse awy at any age as I want to show him things and make him as safe as possible for me to ride.So I can 'ride' him from the ground and teach him about his surroundings and form a trust and communication.Then and only then do I start to ride him because he will understand me.( by the way I started to ride him this July ,he was 5 in April)So long as there is a structure to the way you train and you concider the horse and it's emotions you can train it any way you like. What I don't agree with is shouting, beating and tying down. I also believe that the more severe the bit people use means they have difficulty controlling their horse and fear the horse they do not understand.
So you should not find these other methods insulting? Because they are just common sense and you would find if you looked at the programe you already use most of them anyway.
I admire Pat Parelli for many reasons, one of them has to be that he is the one who capitalised on these natural methods which we have all used for hundreds of years and if it teaches the people that didn't know much about horses to treat them with more respect then surely it's a good thing?
I enjoy watching anyone whatever the method because there is so much to learn.We can all learn from each other. Sorry about the waffle!! So in short Joan I would start straight away with everything else but not ride him until he is 4/5
Regards
Debbie |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 5:40:23 PM
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Not sure I know where 'shouting, beating and tying down' come from?.....is this another method of breaking in youngsters?
I am trying to keep a straight face at capitalize, sorry .but Mr Parelli certainally has more capital than me and lots of us right now!! ....so yes, he is a clever one indeed.
A good friend of mine here in the West Country brought Pat Parelli home from the States with her!! she has a few Arabians and lots of money.he stayed with her taught her his methods and set up a school nearby.....This was some time ago, she and Pat came to my home.
Now this woman had always sent her mares to me for covering, she extold my vertues to Pat and said I was the only stud that could get her mare in-foal?..
He watched me and my horses, I had no idea who he was, at the time he was not the latest fashion you see.....after tea and biscuits and small talk, he decided that I was to be the best teacher of his methods going?.......did I miss out on something big time or what!!
The 'school' nearby that teaches the Parelli method nowdays, is always full and often asks for spare stables!!....so there must be something in this, I have to agree!!!
It used to be Classical riding, now I know another story there!!!!
sold them an Arab years ago!!
Sue...x |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 6:02:37 PM
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Hi Sue
I have seen people shout ,beat and tie down horses,have you never? And thats exactly what I meant about capitalise,hats off to him he's made a mint!!It may be a shame that you didn't take up his offer! Maybe you are destined for better things! It obviously wasn't meant to be.
Debbie |
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gillsta
Silver Member
Scotland
272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 6:17:51 PM
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Must say that I and countless others are happy with the parelli way. Good for him he's made his fortune doing something that he obviously loves.
Gill
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 8:56:25 PM
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Right this is a subject that I could ramble on and on about but to be honest each horse is individual, and personally I treat them that way. They take me at the speed they are ready to go at, and I use the good ole english conventional way. I Having been breaking arabs/ponies since I was 9 (I don't think my mother could have liked me much lol) and believe me I've had some very interesting experiences, especially when breaking a Highland and an Arab at the same time, its like getting off chalk and getting on cheese(excuse the punn).
Now the thoughts on breaking at two, this is where I draw a line between breaking and backing, personally I have had to start on the
breaking process on a couple of two year old colts, purely to show
them domination before they got too above themselves and became unbreakable, Now what I mean by breaking is Long reining, some
lunging on a decent size circle,mainly loose lunging as you have to
be aware that their legs are still forming and you don't want to
cause concussion injuries, having a saddle on their back and maybe
leaning over them, but certainly NOT riding them at TWO.
Generally I don't back a horse until the end of their third year, but I do like to long rein etc in their third year in preparation for backing. Then we come back to them being individuals, for example I had one horse this year that i was up and riding in two weeks , on the other hand I had another that took 3 months before I could sit on him, but the end results are just as good, and they'll both be out next season. Learn from your horse as well as teaching them.
As I said I could ramble on and on about this so I'd better go before I send you all to sleep,
Fiona Grant-Chivers
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 9:03:02 PM
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Hi Debbie, you will have to tell us all about this shouting, tying down and beating bit?..never come across it before,...... really.
I find it worrying that it can go on in this day and age?......Whilst I may 'smile' at some other methods used, i.e. Parelli, I know they are a kind and sensitive way........do people actually use such cruel methods to break youngsters, in this country?...
I can't see this working. No horse will work well if forced.
Sue...x |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 9:08:39 PM
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I certainly don't see the shouting, tying down method working with any of the horses I've got in at the moment, the Highlands, they'd just get me beck later by standing on my toes, believe me they B****y hurt, twice the weight of the arabs and they take twice as long to get off!!!!!!!!!
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 9:42:21 PM
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Hi Sue
Thanks for your reply. I haven't half the experience that I expect you have but what I meant.....and it's sometimes hard to explain on a BBS!! What I meant is I have seen people shout at their horses to get in for example a horsebox or if thier horse can't quite read their mind they get a good slap!I have seen people treat their horses badly if they fall off..they shout and act like it's the horse at fault.When I was a child I saw the owner of a riding stable knock a tooth out of a horses mouth with her fist because it would not stand still! I know they are in a different league from the people I know of now but it DOES go on.All these people are oblivious to the nature of a horse.A friend of mine had her horse started at a certain stud where they tied her head down so low she looked like a sea horse !!The poor thing could not see where she was going but to them 'she looked good'!! To put it bluntly it's almost like they've got to act all hard to put the horse down in it's place!?!Thats all I'm trying to say ....that if someone like Pat Parelli can come along with his easy to follow methods all written down so we can all understand it easily then thank God for the hands that will be made more gentle,thoughtful and understanding than they previously were. Not you,not me,but I have seen some people awakened by Natural Horsemanship.For the people who have been bought up using the most traditionmal methods it is harder for them to look with an open mind.I met someone recently who has been involved with horses all his life(he is now in his 60's) When I started the Parelli course I got a lot of flack from him,until he started to see the results for himself!He said it was hard for him to think like a horse and now is doing Parelli!?! But for those who don't wish to know thats cool we all have our own ways. I would never condem others for their methods unless they were cruel.I have found now the best thing to do is probably keep my thoughts to myself and people can judge me on my achievements.I would not try to convert anyone but I will answer any questions if asked.These methods suit me personally and I don't want to offend anyone,if you don't like these methods or use them already it's all a personal thing.Most people on this BBS have far more experience than me and I can only hope to learn from youe comments......now I'm backing out the door
Regards Debbie god I hope you know where I'm coming from now |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 10:16:34 PM
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A friend of mine had a thoroughbred cross to break in. This horse could jump anything and if he could have been broken he would have made the most fantastic showjumper but......
Whether it was his past treatment or he was just terrified of people I don't know, we only got as far as leading him and putting tack on in the stable I would have loved to have taken him to a Monty Roberts demo and I would have put good money on Mr Roberts failing to do anything with this horse and the horse most likely jumping out of the round pen!!!! I remember him getting away from us going out to the field, we managed to corner him between a gate and a six foot wall complete with wire fence on top, guess which one he cleared from a stand still!!!! |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 10:24:42 PM
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| This is what the forum's for! so we can debate these issues! i personally love typing away on here about something im familiar with! Horses are much misunderstood animals,sometimes we must stop and think before reacting,and decide,basically is he afraid? or is he naughty? Instead of going in,like abull in a china shop and whacking hell out of him,stop ,stand back,and analyse the problem. Regards Libby. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 10:50:59 PM
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Good comment Libby. I must admit the best thing I have learnt from the programme is approach and retreat ,reward the slightest try, all beit a shift of weight.And remember how claustrophobic and panicaholic they are.That means you can decensite them from anything even if you have to start a mile away!!
OOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!! ARRRGH!! OWCH!! who kicked my soap box away!!
Sorry but I must admit I do love this stuff. I think there's a cure and remedy for every 'vise' You just have to take 3 steps back and listen to thre horse!
OOOPS!! BANG,CRASH!!!! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 11:39:47 PM
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| Most of the horses I have seen broken and helped with were wild moorland ponies of varying sizes so alot of the process was gaining their trust in order to halter break them and get near enough to them to put tack on etc before any ground work or backing could be done. This was all before Monty Roberts but I can't help thinking our methods were kind and patient and we didn't chase them for 500 miles beforehand! |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 11:54:42 PM
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Have to agree with all this wisdom. I almost have a motto, 'never choose a bad day and expect a good result' as I've seen so many people expect their youngster to carry on as he did the day before when it was soporific sunshine, when its howling a houlie and pelting hailstones.
Where is some people's 'common sense'
ps bad days include yours when you have pms. |
Edited by - pat ww on 05 Nov 2003 11:55:43 PM |
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Woodlay
Gold Member
United Kingdom
566 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 11:42:24 AM
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Hi everyone,
I think all this is very interesting. The only comments I would like to make about all I have read so far (and I by no means know anything about Parelli or Monty Roberts so can't really comment about the rights and wrongs) is that it all seems to be what a normal "horse person" would do anyway!
I did go to a Monty Roberts demo years ago when he first came over and saw a horse arrive that was totally uncatchable and unhandled - it arrived bathed and gleaming, with a pulled mane and tail, wearing a headcollar and having travelled a long way. Very "unhandled"! He then proceeded to chase it around until it gave in - very scientific. Sorry, but I was not impressed, we can all do this if we so choose.
A friend of mine saw a course on "foal imprinting" and duly trotted off for a days "tuition". This day cost her £80 to learn what I could have told her over a coffee!!! It's how we all treat new born foals as a matter of course, but now a "name" has been put to it and I have actually seen foals advertised for sale as "imprinted at birth".......... what on earth is that all about?
As for handing and breaking, perhaps I am old fashioned, but I have broken in many horses to ride over the years and have never had a spot of bother with the traditional way. I would much prefer to take my time with a horse than to get it backed in 20 mins., no short cuts or gadgets involved. Yes I do "play" with my horses including stallions with no problems, didn't know it was "unsafe" to play with a stallion (according to Parelli apparently), personally I find it great fun, and so do the stallions. At the end of the game, I just tell him to "stand still" which he understands and does, quite calmly, and the game is finished. Where's the science in this?
Every horse I own knows the command "stand still" - the most important words they should learn in my opinion. Once they understand that command they (and you) are never in any danger. Uncatchable foals become catchable if they know that first command...
These people are no doubt tallented, they do what we all do, put a new name to it, charge a fortune and run all the way to the bank....
Good luck to them - wish I'd thought of it first and I would be rolling in "dosh" too.
Annie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 11:53:47 AM
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Annie I'm in total agreement with you, in my opion you start breaking a horse when you put a headcollar on them as a foal!!! Then rugging them and giving them one to one attention it all adds up to them learning you are friend and not foe!!!
I too play with my horses and I enjoy it as much as they seem to, it leaves me with a warm feeling after having such a conection with each of them. This isn't a science its just spending time with the animals and as I said connecting with them.
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Woodlay
Gold Member
United Kingdom
566 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 12:07:37 PM
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Hi Fiona,
Thank goodness for that - I thought I would get shot down in flames straight away. Probably will do now though!
You will probably remember Blue Lucius from years back, well I think it took me about a year to break him in, but I wasn't "consciously" breaking him in, just doing what we all do with a horse that was eventually to ride! He would do everything from the ground happily before I ever got on him. One day I decided that the time was right and went out for a ride! I think most young people have slightly "lost the plot" re. generally handling horses and common sense. There is simply no replacement for experience, and that has to be learnt the "slow" and sensible way. No amount of attending demonstrations and ready books can replace good old fashioned hands on experience. I am not saying don't read books or go to demos, just saying that they have to be used together with experience.
Annie |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 12:20:49 PM
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Well said Annie, straight from the hip!! or is it shoulder?
To this day I laugh about my friend who brought Pat P over...On a visit I found her in the stable with a long stick with a rubber glove stuck on the end!
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