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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 1:25:09 PM
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Annie that is dreadful, I can't believe the organisers allowed this to happen. I spend all the time telling my kids "no you can't do that" and a common response is "but he's doing it", people in a position like that should initiate common sense!!!!!
Sorry but it makes me so angry, if you hold seminars, you need to drum home safety first,it dosen't matter how good and sweet your horse is, at the end of the day they are animals, not machines and many people have been killed or paralysed through not wearing hats or badly fitted hats. What an example to set children
A very annoyed Fiona |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 2:12:10 PM
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| I have seen more than twenty horses broken in over the years, ridden newly backed yougsters and helped from the ground, all supervised by my instructor but i haven't done it all myself yet and although I will be breaking my mare myself after her foal I will not be to proud to ask for help when I need it and from people who know far more than me! |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 2:29:50 PM
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Good on you lisa, none of us ever stop learning and the main teacher for me has been the arab horse, and you find that not everything works with all horses, you tend to gather experience and find what works for you and that individual horse. Paul I also agree with you, I don't normally call it breaking a horse, I call it making a horse, and I have had great pleasure in making some very successful ridden horses over the years, and long may it continue, because I do love the before and after and I get great pleasure in seeing a happy horse!!!
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 2:51:10 PM
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As I'm going through this very process with Dennis I have read this thread with interest. I agree with Paul as I hate the word 'break'!!! I have to say that Dennis is a laid back sort and hasn't adversely reacted to anything we've done so far. I never put a time limit on things and when introducing him to new things I try to do it in a matter of fact, no fuss manner and make it part of a normality.
Personaly I don't think it is always necessary to have a bridle, saddle, boots, 2.4 helpers etc. I have watched many take the , dare I say it, BHS approach. This does work for many horses, don't get me wrong I am not knocking it, but what I do think it does is, really not sure how to say what I mean, but it sets the horse up. The horse is expecting something to happen, might be a bit tense whatever.
I prefer to, for example, have someone sit on them bareback and headcoller when being brought in from the field at tea time. So it is something new but tagged onto something familer. Minimum fuss and no big deal. Of course I realise this doesn't work for every horse! I lean all over them as part of the grooming process, again so it is tagged onto something familier. And so it goes on. Can't really be done if the horse has been sent to someone for starting though!
At one establishment not so far away from me my friend and I watched as her pony was sat on for the first time. The instructer brought out a saddle and put it on the pony - pony side steps, keeps trying to turn round (he is not alarmed just curious). Pony is prevented from doing this. Surely he should have been allowed to sniff, explore, even taste this new object to satisfy himself it is nothing scary. Friend said 'on no it's a new saddle and I didn't want him to damage it'!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with the principle that we actually start (break) our horses the moment we first put a headcoller on!
Now I've only got to loose another two stone and I can actually get on Dennis properly myself. So excited I can't wait. Just for information he'll be four when sat on for the first time.
I also think there is nothing wrong in loose schooling a well grown yearling/two year old in MODERATION. I grew up in Germany and it is the norm there. Even yearlings jump a small fence and that is the key 'A' small fence. Its a lot less stressful to young joints than the things they get up to out in the field. Loose schooling can bring your attention to a multitude of things like whether he/she is left or right handed (yes I believe they are), gait anomolies etc. They do learn whoa, walk, trot as well - bonus!!
I know of a two year old that the only way you can catch him when being loose schooled is to take the jump down. You let him go and if allowed would go over it again and again - he isn't allowed and when he's jumped three times the jump is taken down. This particular horse isn't an arab but I still think the princliple is the same. MODERATION and absolutely without force!
Vera and Dennis
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 4:27:12 PM
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I would also agree with the safty issue. If you are not experienced with horses ie a child the games could be dangerous. I would always recommend adult suppervision and protection. Unless you have a really placid horse.I have found you need to be at least a few steps mentally in front of your horse.I started my Arab using the Parelli methods.He would always try to win the games!You have to be quick on your feet and quick to reward with your hands. Feel is EVERTHING.It sounds to me like most of you 'anti Parelli' have most of your knowelege of Parelli from the Level 1? Which is very basic and like I said before 'common sense' Have you also watched demos and not understood how much time goes into these horses? Forgive me if I'm wrong. Have any of you seen Olimpic gold medalist david O'Connor jump his horse with no bridel?Do dressage with no bridel? I've seen Charlotte Denise do Figures of 8 with beautiful lead changes with no saddle or bridel.I've seen Dave Stuart call his horse to him at a flat out gallop and then sent him off again to load onto a trailer the other end of the arena,to name but a few things!! There is much more to it than what you have seen. Lots of people say what the point of waving that silly stick etc,what would they know if they haven't really read up on the subject.There is no answer on the Parelli website about 'Bolting' because these horses don't bolt because of how both horse and rider are trainned.When someone asked about it the long and short of it was 'If you can bend your horse to a stop,the other side of him won't run off'If your friends horse bolted with her SHE lost it! She wasn't WITH her horse, was out of balance and fell off.If a horse is circling it won't get there fast!When Pat says you shouldn't play with stallions until you are a a certain level that is quite right!But I don't honestly think for one moment he would class those of you who have worked with them all your lives as one of those people!!! The levels are set out from basic-advanced. If most of you were to to these levels you'de probably fly through the first 2!L1/2 are SO important to build trust and leadership.I've backed horses the conventual, normal way, whatever you want to call it with great success I'de like to think, but with the Parelli method it smoothed out more of the creases,especially for the horse.I'm looking forward to advancing though the levels and getting results that I have seen others achieve.I would love to see all of you work and play with your horses to,I know I would grow even more.So long as we enjoy our horses and they enjoy us and we get the results we want what does it matter?The main thing is we all love our horses
Debbie |
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Emancy
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 4:52:45 PM
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Hi
I just wanted to share my experiences. I've only broken 4 horses in (all Arabians and 3 of which were stallions). I set myself and the horse a six week agenda, by which time, they have always been given the basics i.e are rideable but not schooled.
The 6 weeks are broken down into 3 x 2 week intervals and depending on how willing the horse is to learn the tasks, he or she is set, depends on how rigourous the training is (if they're reasonable intelligent I find they should only need 4-5 sessions a week).
I set aside the first 2 weeks for lunging. By the end of the 2 weeks, they must know "walk", "trot" and "canter" plus "whoa" to voice command, and they shouldn't need coaxing over and over again i.e 1st or second time they're asked, I like them to be either dropping down a gait or be moving up into the next one, depending on what I've asked them. I use up-beat voice tones for moving up a gait and lower, more soothly tones for slowing down, and this seems to work for me and the horses.
The second 2 week interval is split into long reining and lunging with tack on (including the addition of a bit). If they take a while to master these two disciplines, I will add an extra week to the agenda. We do lots of circle work and stopping and starting and a limited amount of troting on the long rein (as I can't keep up!!!).
Then in the 4th or 5th week I start to back them, with my partner leading for the first 2-3 sessions, to give the horse confidence. I always find they get a little spooked or slam on the brakes if they don't have any moral support on the ground (just until they get used to it) as they've spent 4 weeks with someone asking them to do things from ground level and suddenly there's no one to guide them!
I've only ever broken horses for myself or friends (who are capable of bring the horse on themselves afterwards) so I normally back them for the final 2 weeks, making sure they are confident with the 3 main gaits on both reins and then they have a rest for a few weeks.
I definitely agree with Vera in that, if a horse is scared or curious by something, he/she should be allowed to sniff the oject, even have a little nibble if need be. It's natural for an animal to judge the potential danger of a new object by having a nibble (if it bites back then they know it's probably not a good idea!) I also very rarely use a whip when breaking in especially when backing as you don't want a horse which needs to be whipped to move forward, just because you haven't explained to it what you would like it to do. Gentle persuasion always wins over and makes for a better riding experience later on.
Lastly, just a little tip of mine - It's always nice to finish on a positive note when ending a session. If they seem like they're starting to get a bit irritable, end the session, then they will spend the next hour or 2 contemplating on the positivity rather than resenting the whole experience.
Claire Sharp
Emancy Arabians
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 5:24:32 PM
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All of the amazing feats you descibe Debbie are done in an Arena....or so it sounds.
My middle aged friend was out riding over open countryside with no bridle, .....please don't ask me if I know what she was meant to be doing, I and my vet, who retold the tale to me, have absolutely no idea.....
I am very happy with my life without Mr PP's help, horses are my hobby, not my employment, I just found it all so funny!....It's no use me telling her she got the bend or whatever wrong?..as she probably has got involved with Pilates? or Buddhism by now!
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After finding her one day with the stick and glove!!!!!! words fail me...Is this a real method used? or was she behaving oddly with rubber?..quite possible for her!!
Good Luck with your PP......
Sue......x |
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gillsta
Silver Member
Scotland
272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 6:20:47 PM
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I totally and agree with Debbie’s comments (you are better with words than I am Debbie).
I would like to give an example of how parelli has worked for me. A friend of mine asked me to play with her 13 yr old mare. The mare had a huge problem with anybody touching or going anywhere near her ears. Presumably something horrible had happened to her in the past. She had infected ears and the vet was called to look at her. To cut a long story short she had to be orally sedated to be sedated with a needle. It was such a shame to see this mare so obviously upset. Her owner had tried everything. I played with this mare every day, after a few playing sessions I was able to get closer to her ears. She now actually puts her head down to you to have her ears touched and scratched. This is fact not fiction it has worked and that is good enough for me.
I like to think I can take on everybody’s views regarding various methods of training and I deffinatly would not laugh at anybody’s misfortunes. It certainly boils down to personal choice and I respect other forms of training so long as the horse’s well being is paramount. 
Keep It Natural.
Gill
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 6:54:41 PM
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Hey Sue
I think you caught her out!! Maybe she has a rubber fetish!
Perhaps we cold start a thead about fetishes!Just for a change
Debbie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 7:01:32 PM
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Hey chill out everyone, we were only chuckling at the way sue put it, she seems to have an amusing way with words. I have certainly read with interest about the pirelli way, but personally over the last 24 years I seem to have found my own way of making individual horses, with success, without harm and hopefully have had very happy horses at the end of it, thats all I am saying. Each to their own, thats what this discussion is about, what methods each of us use....
I do hope nobodys offended (but can u tell me who with any sense, would go out for a hack with no saddle or bridle!!!!!!) whether it pirelli, monty or conventional!!!!!!!Thats what I found amusing the very thought of it, not that she broke her arm Plleeeaase!!!
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 7:27:23 PM
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Hi Fiona
The demo with no saddle and bridel was a demonstration of control,nobody is expected to ride out without them. It just shows you don't need to rely on them, ie for balance,direction etc.It shows a true partnership with the horse.
I hope this helps.
Debbie |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 7:56:57 PM
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Sorry to be picky but you cannot say horses trained with the parelli method won't bolt because they are trained not to......
Horses bolt because they are fright flight animals, it is instict and no amount of training can remove their natural instict. |
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Bebely
Gold Member
United Kingdom
813 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 7:57:55 PM
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I went riding without a bridle. Well, not exactly because I had a bridle on when I set off. I ride Jameel in a hackamore and I'd got him a nice new synthetic one so I didn't have to clean it when it rained and it all got wet and soggy.
I'm not really sure exactly what I had done wrong but the buckle on the strap under his chin came undone. It must have been tickling him so he flicked his head (like you do) and off it went. I must have had super fast reflexes because as I saw "something" fly past my head I caught it! 'twer bridle and all I had was the reins round his neck! We were doing a cracking trot at the time.
We hadn't heard of Parelli or Monty or anything much at the time but I did remember NOT TO PANIC. I had a quiet word in his ear and bless him, he stopped so I slid off. I had rather nervous friend with me at the time who asked "What's up? Why have you got off?"
I was going to try and bluff but by then I was laughing so hard I could hardly speak. I think it was the release of nervous tension!!!
PS - nobody needs to tell me off because it took me weeks to get over the dressing down I got from my OH.
 
Bev |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 8:17:52 PM
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Lisa
it's not that thet won't bolt but because you are thinking ahead you would bend them to a stop and only release when they relaxed, play a few games to get him back on the left brain and proceed.If you were too slow you would lift the rope foward and high with one hand and slide the other hand down to bend to a stop.If you were in a safe open space you would go with him stay relaxed and then ask for a stop when you feel both of you are ready.There is a brilliant Natural Horsemanship book 'True Horsemanship Through Feel' by Leslie Desmond and Tom Dorrance I would recommend it to everyone.You can buy it at Amazon.com
It's hard for me to explain everything.
You mustn't read my comments as negative either, I have a lot of respect for people in this forum.Some of my comments are tougue in cheek and some are my personal views.None are meant to offend anyone
Debbie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 8:34:49 PM
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debbie I know that riding with no saddle and bridle in a school the pirrelli way is to show balance etc, but if you read back on this discussion sue had a friend that watched pirelli and thought she could do the same riding out, thats what I found funny!!!!!
Fiona |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 8:38:51 PM
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Hi Fiona
Well what can I say??........Ooops!!
Debbie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 8:43:47 PM
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I learnt many years ago to bend a horse if it bolts, I was tought by a 18 year old Highland pony that used to bolt regularly, as I and others have said you learn alot from experience, but I do feel maybe the pirelli etc could help people starting out, as long as they don't follow word for word and they do seek help and advice from experienced people who are normally more than willing to offer advice!!!!!!!
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 8:58:20 PM
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Fiona you've lost me now!What is the point of studying something if you already have decided to skip bits!!!?? You must follow the directions because they do work.You could 'piggy back' some of the methods on to your own ways to help you out. I have never seen one horse that has never responded well to these methods?How much do you actually know about these methods?(I ask respectfully)Have you read up on the methods or practised any of them? Or are you making assumptions.If you are trying to say you must take all things(methods) into concideration I wholeheartedly agree.There must be no tunnel vision when it comes to trainning but you can't write something off until you experience it. And if it's not broken don't try to mend it!!!
Debbie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 9:22:49 PM
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In answer to your question debbie yes I have read up on it, I have a very close friend who is into the pirelli/monty roberts style of doing things with horses, so yes I have looked into this subject with an open mind and I am NOT making assumptions!!!!! What I am saying is that horses for courses people must be aware of all the different avenues learn from their own experiences, which ever method they decide to use. I do feel that alot of the pirelli methods are basic horsemanship, which as stated earlier is having a connection with your horse whatever age.
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 9:39:31 PM
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Thanks Fiona I agree it's all common sense.Now I'm off to spend some time with my other half...........he thinks horses just smell!!!!!!!!!!
Good night
Debbie |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2003 : 9:55:15 PM
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Yes debbie we've got that in common my husband feels the same, goodnight, sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite
chow for now
Fiona |
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LB
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 10:55:45 AM
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Hi, my feeling on the training of horses starts as foals, having started of section A ponies straight from market, to Sharp show ponies especially the little ones as i am only small, i feel that if tha handling is done softly and slowly from the start the majority take to it rather easily, i personally like horses to have seen the sights done a little inhand, then i would prefer to start there ridden training around the autumn of there fourth year, call me backward but what is the rush, they have many ridden years ahead of them, so five year olds i find are usually very keen and helpfull, rather than being full of teenage attitude. So i hope to see you all next season with your happy youngsters, mine a 5yr old Fferzan.xx.
LB |
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MO Moor
Silver Member
United Kingdom
351 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 11:45:11 AM
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When i bought a stallion from a breeder and was fussing him i was also telling him how beautiful he was and what kind of home we had etc., really daft stuff. The breeder came and told me to stop talking to him as he did not know or understand the English language, he had his own language.
Wether we chat to horses for our own pleasure, does it matter, i wasn't hurting him. It also made me think, when i am lunging horses to prepare them for being ridden and schooled, i teach them Walk, Trot etc., so when on thier backs they know at least the verbal transistions even if it takes a while to teach the physical actions.
I have backed all my horses bareback in a field when gut instinct and horse have said there is the bond and trust to allow it. They graze freely so they allow me to mount and sit freely. MAD, but it works for us!
I also, will not use the word BROKEN as is refers to the old saying of BREAKING a horse by breaking its spirit. I had a horse that through many attempts people tried to break his spirit instead of working together to be backed. This is why i use the word BACKED as it is more correct then BREAK at least in my yard, but each to their own.
k mckenzie |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 2:40:08 PM
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I know I have always talked to young horses. I was once asked by a teenage girl who was riding my stallion out with me leading the 3 year old colt why I did it.
I told her my horses had to see me as a 'comfort zone'. I use the same tone of voice when doing the 'good things' grooming, feeding etc and I become s substitute 'mum' when they are having a scary new experience. If 'mum' is calm and still talking in the same mild tones, then they learn to trust my decisions.
Its paid off so far. Command words are introduced with a completely different tone of voice, so they can pick out individual words. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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