| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
|
garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 7:33:38 PM
|
|
Did anyone else watch Rolf Harris at Leahurst on Channel 5 at 8pm last night? I thought the story about the mare who lost her foal and had to be given a plastic horse to comfort her was desperately sad and made me so glad I never got round to putting Garnet in foal. A vet friend said the tragedies always happen to the owners with just one precious mare so I didn't go through with it. So, I am certainly no expert on breeding, but I was surprised that, given the mare's problem with torn abdominal muscle, they didn't go in with a Caesarian as soon as she showed signs of being ready to foal. I know it turned out that the foal had a genetic abnormality and would not have survived anyway, but they came so close to losing the mare as well. I am sure the staff at Leahurst know what they are doing but I just found it quite distressing. Can Caesarians be carried out successfully on horses?
|
      |
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 8:14:49 PM
|
Yes, i watched it and felt for the mare. Equine parturition is certainly not my area of expertise but I understand that mares are particularly susceptible to peritonitis when undertaking caesareans (unlike cows who I understand will basically cope with a caesarean with a rusty knife - so to speak - and bounce back). They must have believed the risk of a CS outweighed he risk of a vaginal birth.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 8:22:53 PM
|
What bothered me is they said that the foal had died at least 2 days before. Why didn't they know that?......
|
    
Hampshire |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
jillandlomond
Platinum Member
Scotland
3586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 8:23:37 PM
|
I watched it and was very concerned that the vet in charge, with 3 years experience of foaling, initially said all was well and that he could feel 2 legs and a head, the correct position for the foal to be in, ready to be born.
A few minutes later he said he could feel 3 legs? Then the decision was made to take the mare to theatre for a caesarian, which entailed getting her to her feet and walking her some distance.
Then it was announced the unborn foal was dead and had been for 24 hours?? How did the 3rd leg appear in the birth canal within the space of a few minutes if the foal was already dead? I don't understand why this hadn't been detected much earlier, given this mare had been under very close supervision for several weeks at the hospital and scanned the day before?
I found the programme very distressing and If I were the mare's owner, I'd be asking lots of questions...... |
    
Borders, Scotland |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 9:11:04 PM
|
I wondered if it was just me. I too wondered why the death of the foal had not been detected earlier when she was such a high risk mare, and how the foal was apparently rearranging itself. I assume that the mare's owner must have been kept informed and advised about the alternatives so perhaps she chose to go the natural way. I take Kharidian's point about peritonitis so presumably she was advised that this carried the least risk.
I wasn't sure whether I could watch this series, having lost our Jim (black cob in sig pics) at Leahurst 3 days after surgery for a pedunculated lipoma in 2009. We were kept informed, and knew from the outset that there wasn't a great chance of a successful outcome but we chose to keep going as long as he was in with a chance, only to receive a phone call in the middle of the night (dreaded but not unexpected) and have to agree to his being PTS. I only hope his demise was not accompanied by the same sense of panic and the feeling that things were out of control.
I know Leahurst does wonderful work but I didn't feel this case showed them in a very good light and it was very distressing. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 9:18:30 PM
|
Apparently stats on equine caesarean are awful - either mare or foal will most likely be lost. I know of only one 'totally successful' one (an Arab) and even then all the experts connected to the case had only known that one case too. So it is very unusual.
More worrying, in discussions with various vets in the area almost all told me they had "never seen a mare foaling" - the exceptions are those that are horsey and have bred their own. Worst of all there was 1 practice that hadn't got a vet/nurse on the staff that had EVER witnessed a foaling in real life  ......... so if you've ever had to make a panic call to the vets and felt that the person on the line doesn't grasp the urgency of the situation, you are probably more experienced than they are  |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 10:25:45 PM
|
| Frankly I thought the whole thing was shambolic. The only saving grace was that the mare survived poor lass. I'm glad she wasn't mine, I would have been asking an awful lot of questions having seen the programme. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 10:32:41 PM
|
I agree with JillandLomond and others - lots of unanswered questions! How could the Vet say the foal was presenting correctly, then on the next VE say there were three legs presenting and the foal was dead? Unless the foal was badly macerated in which case it was dead a lot longer than 24 hours which shOuld have been picked up on scan. Obviously I'm looking at this from my background but we're all mammals, none the less.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
Edited by - Kharidian on 31 Oct 2012 10:35:29 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 07:40:17 AM
|
There were quite a few things that concerned me about the whole handling of that situation. I was amazed when the mare, who was there because she was at high risk of foaling difficulty, was left under the observation of a person who had no idea of the difference between urinating and the waters going. I think she was a student, and I just feel is was hugely unproffessional and unfair to her, the mare, and mare owner. Once she had raised the alarm quickly (which I think she is to be praised for, given her obvious lack of knowledge in foaling) the following treatment of the mare was bizarre.
That mare was high risk and supposedly placed in the care of top experts with all facilities on hand. I feel she received far less care than my mare did at home from my vet at a moments notice.
If I was the owner watching that programme, I would be asking a lot of questions. |
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
littlearabians
Gold Member
1323 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 10:15:12 AM
|
After just having watched the show on channel 5 od I fully agree with Gem.... I don't know how they can justify a student looking after the mare when they have already seen signs of labour, I have foaled down at least 100 mares and though I'm no vet I would never dream of leaving a mare that showed labour signs round due time (ending in a poo while looking at her or not) to a vet student... and I too can't believe the student had such little knowledge about the waters breaking... CHOCKING when they are on foal watch!!!
Regarding the stress of the mare, this could IMO have been done in a much better way for the mare by leaving her with the dead foal for a while, however I understand this doesn't look great at an equine hospital, but experience has thought me that mares seam to accept things better by doing this, they have a chance to say goodbye.
I know students has to learn but at least give them a decent briefing BEFORE they are to go and help the mare foal down... I agree with the vet "bleep" when the female student is pulling far to close to the hoof, and therefore doesn't have enough strength to keep the leg fixed.
From this show I have learned that should I ever have a high risk mare it will NEVER be going to Leahurst. And if I was destiny's owner Leahurst would have A LOT to answer for!.
I have never known a cesarean performed on a horse where the outcome was healthy dam and foal.
Regarding Garnets vet friends comment "the tragedies always happen to the owners with just one precious mare" .... I don't agree at all, however the chances are properly higher as the mare owner often doesn't know enough to help her mare in time till the vet arrives, or doesn't spot the signs of problems till it's too late... Also the one mare owner will properly feel a bigger need to talk his/ hers grief through on forums, with the vets and of course with friends... therefore their cases gets remembered..... It doesn't mean it's something the rest of us doesn't get sad about, we just don't shout about it... I myself have lost 2 foals doing foaling, and been foaling another 3 where the foal died/ was dead, but managed to save the mares. Sadly this is the risk we take when we breed horses, and if your not willing to take the risk of loosing the mare AND the foal DON'T BREED but buy a healthy foal from a breeder instead. |
www.littlearabians.com
Classic Polish Arabians
Worcester based
|
Edited by - littlearabians on 01 Nov 2012 10:17:35 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
GT
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 11:49:39 AM
|
I'm so glad I wasn't the only one that found this programme totally distressing...... I thought maybe I was being a little too judgemental, but I was simply horrified to realise no one seemed to know the mare's waters were breaking - even the vet in charge! He seemed tetchy and gave the impression he was annoyed with the whole situation, which was not good for the mare at all.... but then to see the total panic in that stable then the chaos that ensued.....you just knew it was not going to have a happy ending.
I was up and down off the sofa and chewing my fingers to the bone...horrendous.
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
KittyB
Silver Member
United Kingdom
295 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 1:51:07 PM
|
| I found it very distressing too, for all the reasons already said. It was a miracle none of the people were injured too as I saw flailing hooves within inches of a student's unprotected head. How sad to see them bring out a yellow bag of "bits". Awful for the mare to go through all that and have no foal, nor even a body to understand it was dead. Sympathies to all concerned. |
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
arabella
Bronze Member
England
122 Posts |
|
|
loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 5:51:10 PM
|
| Agree with all the comments - the program was very distressing and the veterinary care seemed lacking (understatement!). I went through something very similar with my mare three years ago - full term but dead foal, only the head presented, both front legs back. She was at home and the vet came out quickly - three hours later he finally managed to get the foal out though at two hours in things looked hopeless he carried on. We did discuss the option of taking her to Leahurst for a CS at the two hour/no progress stage but I said no... mare was already distressed enough and a two hour journey would probably have killed her anyway. So the vet carried on and eventually succeeded. My mare saw her dead foal, whickered to it, and when there was no reply she almost seemed to shrug her shoulders and forget about it. She never pined at all and after an hour snooze in the field got up and was right as rain. Tough cookie! In the aftermath I did swear I would never put her in foal again but everyone told me it was just bad luck (she'd had five healthy foals before this one) and mext year she will hopefully be put in foal again. I know I will be very very stressed come due date but she loves being a mum :) |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 7:35:34 PM
|
I agree with comments already stated. I did wonder if there had been a lot of editing. They said you could see the foals heartbeat on the scan, which I didn't notice (and I've seen plenty of those) - the next minute the foal was dead and would never have lived. I would have thought they would have prepared beforehand for a CS especially as there was a danger to the mare with her torn abdominal muscle.
I don't think they were professionally prepared ----- But I did love that mare - was Destiny a bad name for her? |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Milotkha
Gold Member
535 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 1:58:19 PM
|
I dream of putting my mare in foal but after this, I could never forgive myself IF I lost her. Its a risky business and as my mare is a Maiden and my only mare, the risk is too high for me. She is my life. (I understand everyone loves their horses, but I could never forgive myself if something happened)
When the time comes to own a 2nd horse, I think I have now decided that a little weanling will do her just fine, she can play Mum to a little baby and I know she is still perfectly safe.
Kim
|
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
| |
Topic |
|
Rolf Harris at Leahurst-mare foaling
