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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 7:27:01 PM
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I need some help with my 18 month old part bred arab. She is a big girl already and I am having problems leading her. She leans on me all the time to push me where she wants to go, and if I push back to keep her on the right line she rears and boxes at me. I have tried all sorts of headcollars and halters and have resorted to swapping sides depending on what direction I need her to go in but I'm really struggling and am getting to the point I'm not enjoying working with her. Has anyvbody had this problem or got any ideas what I can do with her?
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 8:53:28 PM
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| What length lead rope are you using? If you use one of the 12ft ropes you can keep them out of your space and move them where you want them to be a lot more easily. You also need to set some ground rules to keep her out of your space, using your body language and energy to back her off when she invades your space. |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 8:58:18 PM
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Try to lead her with a loose lead rain (have a smile in it), if she rears just keep on walking, my 2yo used to rear all the time as a foal up till this year, but she seems to have grown out of it. Wave your hand in the air to stop her leaning on you. Hold the lead rain in your left hand with your right hand about 6in from the head collar when she leans on you put your right hand up towards her face to stop the leaning. Oh don't let her get in front of you lead her by her head not her shoulder!
This should help. |
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Nichole Waller
Gold Member
England
1168 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 9:28:53 PM
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I had similar problems with my mare over 16 years ago..... She is still a madam to lead now on occasions. I too have tried a number of different halters and controller head collars but she will always rear with them. I even took her to a Monty Roberts demonstration where Kelly Marks worked on her and she still reared for most of the demonstration.....!
I'm afraid the only thing that works for her is a Chifany and a 12ft rope.
She respects the Chifany and I never have to be forcefull with it. She just leads very easily with it without argument. Probably not a good idea for a 2 year old though, I've only resorted to it I the last few years and she is 19 now. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 9:34:26 PM
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What Judith said about a longer line is essential for your safety and Glo has it right, too. Keeping horses out of your space is so important and you can do it without being too confrontational. I sometimes did jumping jacks around my welsh mare to keep her away, but without directing aggression at her.
Your mare sounds as though she is "driving" you. You can also drive her, though! You can lead from slightly behind her once you have a 12' rope, because by angling yourself carefully you can stay out of the kick zone while doing so. But don't try this until you've seen videos of it, because you have to position yourself so you don't get kicked. Learning how to go from driving her, to leading her, to driving her, will keep her thinking and get her to understand you are in charge. However, it does so in a way that helps your bond, rather than hurt it.
For some good ideas, look at Carolyn Resnick, whose program is particularly good for youngsters (because it is about being with your horse at a very foundation level), but also Parelli, Intelligent Horsemanship, all that. They have good ideas about this very common leading problem.
Btw, I had a 2 year old once who DRAGGED me from one end of the pasture to another like I was a plow. Longer line and a rope halter, a little training (I can't even remember who or what I was looking at back then) and he became EVENTUALLY a quiet kids type pony -- so don't give up hope!!! He is now being bossed around by 6 year old children!
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 9:43:11 PM
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| Hi thanks for this I will be trying a longer rope and trying to keep her out of my space. I have a headcollar that she respects so she doesn't pull me now she just pushes instead and she does it at speed! I think lots of practise is going to be needed and somehow teach her to keep out of my space with my body language. I'm trying not to give up as I bred her and was hoping to keep her for life! |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 10:27:11 PM
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Oh, so you bred her and so she's probably got no fear of humans at all -- which is good! But it does mean you are going to have to teach her that she has to get out of your space. She does sound like she's driving you. She probably finds this a fantastic game, but it is of course onlyfun for HER. Can you get her to back up? Can you direct energy her way and get her to back up without getting really close to her, I mean?
Sometimes you have to be very forceful at getting them out of your space. You need distance (for safety) and you need for her to have a place she can get away into -- so don't do this in a small paddock or stable because she needs to be able to escape from you when you say GET OUT, and that may be 10' but it may easily be 20'. But when you want her out, she HAS to go. Carolyn Resnick uses a reed, I think, as an extension of her body, but you can use the end of a LONG rope or you can use a carrot stick if you look into Parelli. |
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 10:32:44 PM
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| Thanks martha615, she has no fear at all of me and makes that perfectly obvious. I don't want to be agressive towards her but are you suggesting forcefully making her get out of my space with a rope or stick or body language? I can get her to back up with a hand on her chest or slight pressure on the headcollar, but when she gets excited she just barges through me. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 01:59:53 AM
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Flicking the leadrope at her to make her keep her distance also works, It imitates the gesture an alpha mare makes to keep other members of the herd behind her. Had that from an 'intelligent horsemanship' type and it proved very effective with one of my stallions who was a bargy boy at about the same age.
Keren |
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daintyarabs
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 04:42:00 AM
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| I would use a well placed elbow in the chest to stop her leaning into me, not digging her with it but keeping it where she will walk into it when she comes too close. Depending on how she is with food you could try what I did with my very food orientated mare who used to be the bargiest animal I had ever met when she first arrived. I used the badminton large size herbal nuts and would stop every few yards and treat and then repeat this until we got to where I wanted to go. She went from being bargy, pushing and dragging and then bolting in hand at the field to being an angel, waiting for me to take her halter off and be treated before leaving me, in two days. I gradually made the distances between treats longer and longer over the next few weeks and then stopped altogether but her behaviour has never reverted. Certainly worth a try and it beats getting into a fight any day. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 08:22:53 AM
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Keren, everything depends on everything....so hard to advise without seeing the horse. What daintyarabs is describing is possible, and if you want to follow that route you could even get into clicker training with horses, if you wish. This can be developed to a high level (I have a couple of books on it I was going to ebay, so pm me if you are interested!) Timing is everything with strictly reward-based training, and it can be very difficult to learn to clicker train a horse at the same time you are dealing with a challenging horse. You may need some help! Do a search on Amanda Martin -- I think she's got a FB page I'm "friends" with. She is very strictly reward-only, clicker training so be prepared for that, but if you want to go that route, it's worth hearing her out.
As for what I was suggesting, yes I am talking about forcing her out of your space. There are many ways you can do this. You can do it "passively" as in you are moving in such a way that if she runs into your space she'll get hit by your hand or rope or stick. This might mean moving your hands around your head, or passively flicking a lead rope around your shoulders left to right, right to left. You aren't aiming for the horse, but aiming for the air around you and it is her responsibility to avoid the moving object.
A non-passive way is when she pushes your space, you push back with that same amount of force she came at you with, PLUS some, but not plus too, too much....it's hard to explain and much easier to show! In this case, aim for the air you feel is YOUR space -- not directly at the horse, though the horse might be in that space coincidently (and usually is at this stage). Tap the air closer and closer to this space with your rope or stick in rapid succession (this gives her time to MOVE). If she moves back, even a little, pause. Then begin again until she moves a little again. Reward her for listening to you by ceasing any pressure. However, if she doesn't listen to you (and try really hard to be clear so it isn't a case of doesn't understand) then pretty soon you will be hitting the horse....sorry, no easier way to say it...but it isn't as though she hasn't had some warning. You don't have to whack her! Some horses go looney at a slight tap. However, she must have somewhere to escape to and she mustn't be HELD so that she can't move. If you hold a horse and hit it (think showjumpers...sigh), that is just beating a horse. You're aim is to protect the space around you, thus encouraging the horse to get out of the space, which is yours, not to punish.
The essential thing is she perceives that she CAN get out of your space. That is why you can only do this method on a longer line or if she is free of any lines and you are just walking across a field or something. Otherwise, yes, she may come over you because you've told her to move and she doesn't know where to other than forward over you. Again, so much easier to show you! SORRY!
If she is really challenging -- I mean, she's wanting a play fight -- I'd get some help. There are many good people out there and I'm sure everyone on the list has a name or two! |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 10:28:04 AM
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All good advice about moving the horse out of your space - when Rog was an excitable youngster (not bargy but often bouncing round into my space in front of me, I would wave a schooling whip parallel to my shoulder In front of me (if you see what I mean) to discourage him from coming round. I would ignore bad behaviour and reward him when he was walking nicely. Chips didn't do that but would jog and pull out on walks so I would ignore him but just walk slower and slower and only speed up again when he was walking nicely - it didn't take him long to realise he wasn't getting anywhere until he walked nicely.
I suppose my point is just to make it more comfortable for your horse to do the "right" thing!
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 10:54:39 AM
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I had a really bad colt who just got worse leading, a chffeney was the only thing that worked and he then reared in the stable when I went to put it on. Apart from that he was a sweetie and never nasty in the stable or field. I was at my wits end as he was getting really dangerous. I had tried a chain etc but nothing worked, he just got worse. I then dug out my controller head collar and he was a lot better but still managed to rear sometimes and as the mornings and evenings were dark after work I needed something before I got hurt and he got loose. I bought a water pistol and when he tried to swing his head towards me as he did before rearing I shot him in the face. Wow, did that work. He stopped dead wondering what had happened, completely forgot to rear. The next time I had to "shoot" him he saw the water pistol in my hand and he now doesn't need to be blasted I just have to carry it and often I just leave it in my pocket so he can't see it but it is there to whip out if he misbehaves.
I feel a bit like a gangsters moll walking him out; "Keep walking or I'll blow your f***ing brains out, dude" but it works. I know it is the wrong time of year but as I dropped my first on and he stood on it I bought a few spares so I can sned you one if you can't find one. The difference in him is amazing.
The problem with "A non-passive way is when she pushes your space, you push back with that same amount of force she came at you with, PLUS some" Well, sadly I don't have more strngth than a horse and once they realise that you can't stop them doing something they are not going to stop of their own accord and your safety is paramount.
Good luck.
Barbara |
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jackiedo
Gold Member
England
1370 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 11:00:24 AM
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| Oh Barbara... I will have to remember that one. :) |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 12:11:07 PM
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I like that one barbara! fortunately haven't needed it yet. Like you I haven't much strength, in fact I an sure my horses don't pull because I can't. Yes you have to meet the same energy they are using, but we can't compete on strength. Barbara's water pistol is a way of meeting that energy without physical strenght.
You can also use the rope swinging as martha says. It isn't harsh because again you are only using as much energy as you need, if she will back up from a light wiggle of the rope, fine. Mine do most of the time but I am ready to back it up with a more active wiggle or swing the rope quickly if needs must.
Keeping out of your space is essential for safety. It is the basis for good manners and will set the tone for when you ride her later. |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 12:40:26 PM
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I thought if you put continuous pressure(push)a horse,the horse will put pressure back instead of going opposite direction?
Apart from that good advice and I think as much as you love your girl you shouldn't worry so much about being"aggressive" to her when your own safety is concerned.Could be just rough play or a way to show you she's the boss,but before things get nasty I'd rather hit her once at the right moment than getting hit.Like Martha said,it's NOT beating up a horse.If you observe horses (or any other social animals)whenever a youngster doesn't respect an older or more dominant horse,after a first warning,they will get kicked/bitten and that hurts more than a touch of a rope or a whip!After the punishment,no grudges and behave normally.That is normal respectful behaviour you are expecting from her,not even something to be rewarded I think.She won't love you less for it,quite the opposite.
Barbara loved your Sheriff method  |
Edited by - Pasch on 21 Oct 2012 12:42:42 PM |
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 12:47:05 PM
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I'd be tempted to do some in hand work in the arena, perhaps with some boots on so she makes a connection with 'work mode'. All good advice given - choose a handful of voice and body language aids and work on nailing them so she is consitent and considerred. Maybe even teach her to lunge - I don't mean working her like a horse, just teaching her to wait for cues, read body position, be away from you etc.
Then take her somewhere she doesn't know - you'll probably find she will have found security in the work you've been doing and in a new place will look to you for leadership even more. Reward every attempt at good work and ignore what you don't want. |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 06:39:17 AM
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| Thank you all for this, I had a very good session with her yesterday as she was pushing me around and I didn't touch her, just shouted and waved my arms and rope and made her back out of my space every time she did it, and after a while she was walking nicely for me and even when I wanted her to turn right which is where I've been having the most problem as long as I turned my shoulders towards her head she would turn away from me without any pushing or pulling :) long way to go but I feel we might have turned a corner and having stood up for myself I no longer felt intimidated by her. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 07:29:40 AM
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I should have been more clear - I *don't* mean flicking the LOOSE end of a leadrope, but sending a 'wave' from your hand to the attached end of leadrope. Like the 'go out' signal when lunging.
Keren |
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Attitude Problem
