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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 07:58:35 AM
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Some one couldn't find name of AHS welfare officer on their official website. I had a look and found it so posted here.
I have been informed by AL admin that they had to remove the name from my post due in part to the policy of not naming names but also because they had received a complaint????
I totally abide by AL rules, but am baffled at someone complaining the name of the AHS welfare officer was posted here when it is on their website for anyone to see. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 08:02:29 AM
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| Frankly I think if Admin received a complaint then that is very revealing with regards to the attitude of the AHS Welfare Officer. Time to start lobbying them as well then. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 08:13:54 AM
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| The only probable outcome of all these complaints is that camera's will be banned! |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 08:20:44 AM
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Hi all
The name of the AHS Welfare Officer is easy to find just 'google' it
Beryl |
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Etoile
Silver Member
275 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 12:31:26 PM
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I have been reading this thread with great interest.
In my part of the country there are few/almost no classes for showing arabs (and people who claim that this is all down to the economy and has nothing to do with the sort of behaviour that’s going on should go and have a look at the high turnout for other classes, like cob classes). For any sport to be a healthy one there has to be a strong grass routes base to the pyramid. As far as I can see for in-hand showing of arabs the base of the pyramid is disappearing.
I have only owned my arabs for 4 years and was initially keen to show them for fun, especially Salladin who had been shown and won in his youth in Scotland and I bought a lovely second hand show halter. At about this time my daughter did some parelli type groundwork. Salad is normally calm and sensible when handled on the ground (it is only when ridden that he can metamorphose into a high speed teleportation device). So she was very worried when on first arriving with the carrot stick to practice the basic games with him he leapt into a frozen show pose with the whites of his eyes showing and virtually vibrated with terror (he’s such a softie, and this is the only time she has seen the whites of his eyes). Due to reading internet forums I had begun to realise that showing was far different from what I had imagined and had to explain that this was no doubt due to previous show training which tied in with the damage to his nose (a permanent dent, no doubt caused by excessive shanking). It took us a great deal of time and effort to persuade him that no one was going to hit him with the stick, and in fact we ended up using it as a scratching stick to desensitise him.
The upshot of this is that as there are no grass roots shows around us we would have to travel to the bigger shows and there is no way that we would expose him to the arab experience of in-hand showing that would so obviously terrify him.
If the in-hand showing culture continues to degenerate it will alienate more and more of the individual amateur owners like myself and yet more classes will disappear. I find this very sad as I really would like to show my boys, but unfortunately they aren’t crabbets, which seem to be the only classes that will accept natural showing within a calm ring environment. |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:15:50 PM
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Wasn't going to post on here but Jess.austin I think that video you posted has been cleverly edited to be a total load of crap!
Strange how I have the same video footage at a different angle showing NO shanking on that day?
Will add it later when I've downloaded it. |
     
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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C_Ma
Bronze Member
Denmark
51 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:19:07 PM
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| I believe he didnt feature in the first video, because he didnt abuse the horses he was showing. IMO there is a huge difference between the two videos, and the last one doesnt show a terrified horse, but a horse that doesnt look easy to handle, and doesnt really listen. Where the first video show handlers shanking the horses for no reason at all, other than to get that tension, and "frozen" pose... |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:20:18 PM
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I'm sorry but I dont see how it can have been edited to show shanking if there was none!
I didn't make the video but I have been waiting for someone else to be brave enough to do it because I saw it with my own eyes at the show!
Double standards in my opinion!
Edited to say I'm not saying I condone some of the behaviour in the first video! |
El Tahira Arabian Training
Jess Austin
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
Edited by - Jess.Austin on 09 Oct 2011 3:28:46 PM |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:23:59 PM
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I was also there that day, and what that video fails to show is that there are bag wavers behind Ah Kuda.
The bagging happens as the horse come in up until that corner. |
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:33:11 PM
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Yes the bag wavers are employed by the handler or the owners etc.
If you don't like your horse to be shanked don't shake a bag up it's arse! The horse wouldn't need to be reprimanded in this way if the owners or employees weren't shaking the bag!! You don't have to do it! |
El Tahira Arabian Training
Jess Austin
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:43:45 PM
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All this is going to do is undermine what people are trying to do!! Making it better for horse and handler! Tit for tat video's is rather stupid!! I am sure there is plenty of footage out there of other handlers especially from the 1st video that surely they dont want to be seen on the world wide web!!
People are falling out now about this and this needs resolving not posting videos like the above trying to make a point.
Yes, we know you didnt put the video together Jess but by posting it is only going to cause more trouble and upset.
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 3:51:15 PM
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It's all over facebook so everyone is bound to see it anyway, Im not trying to cause trouble! I just don't think its fair for people to be condemning people when they are guilty of similar behaviour.
There is nothing I want more than for this all to sorted out! I work for the heads of ETHA and will be sitting down with them this week and suggesting the penalty points system that is making a huge difference in the US!
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El Tahira Arabian Training
Jess Austin
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
Edited by - Jess.Austin on 09 Oct 2011 3:55:45 PM |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 4:05:19 PM
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Maybe a way forward is video footage (un edited!!!) taken at more shows, so if there are any disputes the evidence is there?
Or an even better way forward is NO shanking.
The judges & DC's need to sort themselves out to work out what is/isn't allowed? |
Last picture courtesy of Sweet Photography |
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ambassador
Bronze Member
France
102 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 5:44:08 PM
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Please put as much energy into defending the abuse of these show Arabians outside the ring and I have researched the word abuse on google, as asked by ETHA in their response email and in all honesty I personally still feel this term applies.
You cannot justify methods for the frozen pose whatever the outside pressures and follow methods that are abusive to achieve it, you can only hope for some respect if you go forward and WANT wholeheartedly to make a difference please take these thoughts with you to your ETHA meeting we so need your co operation on welfare on all levels |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 5:58:23 PM
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I will obviously express everyone's concerns as well as possible ways to resolve the issues!
For now all I can say is that I have worked for three of the trainers that are being accused of abusing the horses in their care and I must say that I would never work for someone that abused horses... I have worked in Europe and the US and never have I seen a horse electrocuted, gingered, beaten etc etc |
El Tahira Arabian Training
Jess Austin
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
Edited by - Jess.Austin on 09 Oct 2011 6:00:45 PM |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 7:46:10 PM
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| Jess the baggers WERE NOT EMPLOYED BY ME as the owner or Erik.....You know well enough Kuda DOES NOT DO BAGGERS,certainly not indoors...Please get your facts STRAIGHT before commenting about individual horses...Tit for tat really dosent work...A change is what we want, surely thats what everyone wants happy horses, handlers and owners... |
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
Edited by - Varaina on 09 Oct 2011 8:02:05 PM |
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stuart
Silver Member
United Kingdom
335 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 7:47:18 PM
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Oh dear oh dear oh dear......... the horse seems to be less on the agenda than scoring points.........
Pitiful........
Horses are placed with handlers by owners....... unless Owner handled.
Perhaps all this recent 'tit for tat' posting will truly make potential paying clients truly investigate where they place their charges! 
Edited to add - Following your post Varaina - my 'tit for tat' observation was aimed at the video loaded to call Mr. Dorssers into question......!! |
North Norfolk |
Edited by - stuart on 09 Oct 2011 8:16:01 PM |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 7:53:36 PM
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Hi
Jess....that's the problem these guy's do not see their training methods as abuse...just training !!!...so you might not be in a the most suitable position to judge what is correct...you are just accepting what is to you the normal...perhaps the majority do not see it that way ???....
Beryl |
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rosie
Platinum Member
England
3662 Posts |
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Jess.Austin
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 8:09:32 PM
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I don't want to get into an argument Fiona it is nothing personal, I think Kuda is a lovely horse but have to admit I have seen him show better! I was answering Rosie because she said that there were baggers behind Kuda upsetting him. I know how the bagging works, a member of the trainers show team are allowed in to the ring until the first corner! If there wasn't a member of the show team in the ring then there wouldn't have been someone shaking a bag as bags weren't allowed in the spectators area and a member of another team would not have shaken a bag either!
I'm very passionate about making this industry a better place for the next generation of owners, breeders, trainers, handlers and most importantly the horses!
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El Tahira Arabian Training
Jess Austin
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 8:18:11 PM
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I'm NOT stupid, funnily enough I DO KNOW what a bagger is i dont need it explaining....There was NO bagger in the ring with him... He followed Justice in the ring and as u well know the noise WAS UNREAL....People had shakers that were left on the seats for justice and thought it would be fun to use them on all horses....AS U and many know KUDA cant cope with excessive noise...If i had known he would follow Justice he wouldnt have even gone to the show as Erik has worked sooo hard to build his confidence...Unfortunately for Kudes he had the worst horse to follow in at the show and he coped better than i thought he would considering...but was a handful and rightly or wrongly HAD TO BE CONTROLLED, no stand up footage tho, interesting..... |
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
Edited by - Varaina on 09 Oct 2011 8:20:58 PM |
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Nippo
Bronze Member
115 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 8:22:54 PM
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Well said Stuart. However, a lot of careful investigation would be needed for owners to get a true picture of what happens to their horses at some training yards. And if they knew, they would have a seizure.
Some owners accept the methods used to get the desired result, and abusive trainers know which clients to hide it from. As I said earlier the low life trainers don't need an owners permission to feed their own ego.
I have seen a horse being petted and caressed during an owners visit, only to watch the same yearling literally thrown on the floor by the same person an hour later.
There are, without a doubt some superb sympathetic handlers out there, but i dont take the risk of getting it wrong, my horses do not leave my yard. I've seen too much. |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 8:27:42 PM
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Hi
As a non-showing person this point scoring isn't getting anyone anywhere.
It should be about the horses - the shankers video was posted on the Intelligent Horsemanship DG and people were horrified that this sort of treatment of arabs was acceptable. People were shocked that as soon as the horses behaved perfectly they were shanked to behave in any other circumstance a stressed and dangerous manner.
How can these horses be expected to go on to a normal career as a ridden horse, when this has been done to them - Shanking, bag waving, whips - etc. If you think that it is ok, then you have lost your sense of what is normal in the rest of the horseworld!
All I can say for the horse's sake the sooner arab showing is fixed the better.... |
    
Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 8:29:08 PM
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| Can we all PLEASE put ALL our efforts into changing things...Its for the good of the breed and not against individuals....Its change thats required to ensure we have Happy horses, Handlers and owners and as i have stated on fb I dont agree with edited video's as the way forward...But it has highlighted the NEED for change... |
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
Edited by - Varaina on 09 Oct 2011 8:31:35 PM |
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Livestream Aachen
