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numbbum
Silver Member
363 Posts |
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purdeysue
Gold Member
England
652 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 1:31:57 PM
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| Sorry, but I can't help thinking 'Poor thing!' |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 2:45:59 PM
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| So do I!I have seen worse than this,but I cannot understand why a horse must be terrified to show his/her beauty.Especially hate all the shouts and stampede.Wonder where all the animalists are when they do these shows,isn't this cruelty,too? |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 3:10:34 PM
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I don't think it's actually cruelty, and it's a beautiful horse, but I certainly wouldn't want any of mine subjected to that sort of experience - I find it all rather strange and it reminds me of all the whooping and carry on when the Hackneys are being shown which I always thought was rather cheap. Obviously a lot of people disagree.
On a different note, there was a good write up in the H & H about Towerlands, but sady no pic of Rusleem, although he got a big mention. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 5:43:56 PM
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You have to remember I do endurance - so I want everything as quiet and calm as possible when I trot my horse up  . (But I am a traditionalist when it comes to showing). |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 11 Sep 2011 5:45:15 PM |
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Esther
Gold Member
United Kingdom
866 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 7:33:15 PM
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Reason number 24 as to why it took 4 years to get Spud to trot calmly in a straight line at endurance vettings....even now he still reverts to type if the conditions are right. The vets always roll their eyes and say they can tell at a glance which ones have been through the in-hand showing 'scene'.
The sad thing is that arabs don't need all that. I actually quite enjoy in hand work: play with me.....follow me....copy me....dance with me.... Arabs are so intuitive they just do it. They'll even do it loose in the field with you. No shanking and spinning needed. |
paranoid horsemother
 
Photo on far right thanks to West End Photography
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 9:50:15 PM
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| Esther,agree with you completely.When I said cruelty of course I didn't mean physical abuse,I meant emotional and mental stress.I've seen some big shows in Italy(Verona fair for example)and the horses,especially the young ones,where absolutely TERRIFIED to get that snorty,big-eyed,prancy look.I know horses enough to recognize when they are playing and when they are scared out of their wits.I've had a look behind the scenes,too,and those horses were grumpy,not even turning to look at you in their boxes.My arab will befriend everybody,he loves people,those horses just want to be left alone.Maybe some of the older ones learned to love the shouting and all,maybe it depends on the shows and countries.It just doesn't feel right to me. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 10:08:46 AM
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Thank you for the clip, Numbum.
Some horses love it, some hate it, just like people. When my 3 year old colt was shown he really couldn't be bothered. He just plodded round the ring totally bored.
He only ever went to one indoor show and although I wouldn't say he sparkled he did show a bit more interest and actually moved. I think he would have loved Towerlands with all the noise and atmosphere just as Rusleem did. Vodolej was another who lit up with all the noise and atmosphere.
Barbara
Barbara |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 10:59:37 AM
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I'd just like to say thank you for the clip too Numbbum - I'm sure when you posted it you didn't expect it to become a thread on the pros and cons of showing methods  |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 11:37:28 AM
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Yes, thabnk you for the clip, its great!! I took some but on my phone and they havent come out to well, well due to the fact i am totally rubbish at taking videos and photos
I went and yes there were some young horses that seemed scared but at the same time there are a lot of horse that love the noise and perform better the more people shout. I think its upto the individual if the take their horse or not and if they know what to expect. My lad would love all the music and screaming ( and yes before anyone says anything I do know the difference between him loving something and hating it I bred him and know him inside out)
We get this every year after Towerlands, people making assumptions that the horses are terrified and usually by people who didnt go. I saw a couple that were frightened but more frightened of their handler but thats another topic.....
Janet |
     
Sunny Cheshire |
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Caro23
Gold Member
United Kingdom
617 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 1:01:00 PM
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| Not my cup of tea at all - would prefer to see a calm relaxed horse any day |
Caro
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loulou
Silver Member
England
464 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 1:22:17 PM
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Same old comments every year. Some people can't get their heads round the fact that the majority if these horses actually love it. My five year old mare competed for the first time at Towerlands and rose to the occasion being placed top ten in a very strong mare class, there was a lot of noise, yes but certainly no fear in sight and she loved the chance to show off. And the next day my 16 year old daughter took her out for a gentle hack - so sorry, but in hand horses can be sane ridden horses and I am lucky to be blessed with two.
We can all have our own views and opinions but why can't people accept that some people enjoy competing their horses at these shows and some don't. My gelding has been to Europe and he certainly is not shy of people and has a huge personality and I know of many others that are the same. Like all disciplines there is the small minority that do certain things behind closed doors but please do not tar everyone with the same brush.
Traceyx |
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abz87
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
230 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 4:41:35 PM
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| Hear Haer tracey. My boy was also shown successfully inhand gaining silver medal at towerlands etc yet made the transition into the ridden ring no problem, qualifing for HOYS with me a novice |
   
www.crossbowarabians.moonfruit.com |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 4:55:16 PM
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| Whether some love it---and they no doubt have had kind handlers --or not is immaterial if some hate it. It should not be necessary to hype up horses like this, to the point where some of them are frightened, to get them to show themselves. A really good mover will show beautifully when shown traditionally, and if this was the case there would then be a level playing field for them all to show what they are really like, in a nice calm atmosphere with calm responsive horses.I, and many others, hate modern in-hand Arab showing because I think it demeans the horses, and detracts from their beauty. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 5:02:32 PM
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LOL @ Tracey - 'your gelding has a huge personality' - hmmm I could have throttled him as a stallion!!
Rusleem, Vodolej and Hakka absolutely adore/d the hype of the inhand ring, on the other hand Rusleem as everyone knows could tone it down for ridden showing, Hakka definately could NOT!! He hated 'quiet and well behaved' that wasnt in his vocabulary!
Thanks for the video clips, and would love to see more if anyone has any. |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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stuart
Silver Member
United Kingdom
335 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 5:26:12 PM
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Bleedin' stroll on........ the owners/handlers love it - the horses would be just as happy in a quieter style............ and would transfer to ridden & real life far easier, rendering them far more useful, unimpeached by hype!!
Experience may teach a horse to tolerate...... and 'Volume' cause them to 'rise'....... but really - is anybody honestly........ going to offer forward that the horses prefer this????
C'mon - after showing so many are outed from showing to be ridden as they are over exposed/not deemed good/successful enough to show further either nationally or internationally!!
Are the new and possibly inexperienced owners made aware.........?
How has this become acceptable?
Look what happened when dog showing was exposed.....
Be careful what you wish for folks!
There is a better way, that we should strive for - at least here in the UK,we have always led as a nation - why are we now following? |
North Norfolk |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 7:23:54 PM
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| I just find it completely counter-intuitive - you spend your whole time being calm, quiet and steady around horses because they are flight animals, so why would you want to do this? |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 10:08:48 PM
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Kazzy,I was not making assumptions and I didn't go to Towerlands but to other shows.The first time I went to Verona fair I couldn't wait to see the in hand shows,but was shocked by what I saw.I was close to the warm up area and the handlers were ALL scaring those poor fillies and colts to death.
Zan,agree with you as always,and Stuart,apparently yes,many honestly think the horses prefer this! |
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stuart
Silver Member
United Kingdom
335 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 5:22:19 PM
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It is certainly food for thought....... all of this rhetoric.........
I recently read a most insightful post - at our National Show the Ridden is pushed to a side ring.... and the serious doing horses i.e Showjumping & Dressage are pushed further afield..... out of sight of the main arenas.
The question offered forward was this.......
"Unfortunately there is a self-perpetuating cycle in the "main ring" (and what other breed has the in-hand showing of adults centre stage with ridden out the side and dressage and showjumping hidden away!) whereby no-one yet has successfully revealed that the emperor has no clothes"
Fabulous description... "the Emperor has no clothes"!!! - it outlines how the Arabian is seen... embarrasing!!
Wake up United Kingdom - many of us for reasons real or imagined take issue with one another -(My we are sooooo competitive!!) why is whooping up a potentially useful Arabian Horse productive?? Let's face it.. if it is 'not' sold abroad for your years mortgage - said ponio is going to somebody else - if you are not of a mind to keep and enjoy the ups and downs of Ownership.
My question is this.......
Where is the middle ground of presenting an 'in hand' Arabian without excess stress..... and looking like Fools to the rest of our Countrymen who utilise their horses beyond 'Wary on a sparkly lead rope'?
Opinions both pro and contra welcome!
As someone had written.....
"Same old comments every year."
Is it not time to sort it?? |
North Norfolk |
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stuart
Silver Member
United Kingdom
335 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 11:43:47 PM
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Chuckling....... as I listen to the 'Ether' wind whistling - and watch the cyber 'tumbleweed' rolling across the 'pooters' screen..........
Nuff said........ I guess!!
As you were peeps...... |
North Norfolk |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 09:35:13 AM
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How do you suggest we sort it out Stuart-- because I would love to be able to? Sadly, in hand Arabian showing is going exactly the same way as dog showing, an analogy you have already made. It started with a few following US "fashions", and when they weren't immediately stopped by the AHS, as they should have been, others copied them, then newbies came into it and thought this is how it is done, and before you know it, it is the norm, and anyone trying to show traditionally can't because of the ridiculous whooped up atmosphere. The end result is two camps. This is very bad for the Arabian horse--as in pedigree dogs there is a distinction between those who are true to the original standard and can do a job of work, and those who are fit for nothing but twirling about on the end of a string. I know some will hold up examples of good horses who have done well in hand and then gone on to do well ridden, but they are getting fewer, and the fact is--this should be the norm, not the exception!! In-hand showing should be a preparation for the horse's ridden life, not an end in itself.All that this kind of in hand showing prepares a horse for is fulfilling the stereotype of a flighty, unmanageable nutty Arab.
I think this video--innocently posted by poor Numbum--is very telling. If you look at the still photo at the start before you click play, if you didn't know that this was going to be a video of a horse show you would assume it was going to be a video of a group of people standing around watching a frightened horse being abused. Lovely. |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 12:24:59 PM
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A lot of the good perfrmers in Ridden have been successful in-hand over the last 10 years . |
    
blue moon |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 3:56:39 PM
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To be fair I can't see the filly is being abused. I don't like the flinging back of the head which just 'suggest' she's expecting to be tugged for running on. She trots out quite nicely so if she were frightened she wouldn't.
However I have shown at the highest level numerous times and in the past have really enjoyed it. We've taken the good with the bad and had some fantastic results. I would never put my horses under any unjust pressure for the sake of a rosette though. The same horses come home to me and I have to look after them so I couldn't and wouldn't do it. Therefore I have only ever used 2 handlers. If I were to pick a European handler there is only one I'd consider.
How do you change things.....only the owners can do that, they have the power but do they want that misplaced glory too much !! |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 4:33:52 PM
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People are now breeding horses for the in hand ring, and breeding them for ridden, a few do both, its not the horses faults that no one rides them when old enough, that doesnt mean they arent capable of it!
My horses stand in their stables quietly munching hay, go in the ring with their tails up shouting Woohoo and then go back to their stables and munch hay, hardly scared, abused and hyped you think?
Those that don't like it, don't go, thats my opinion. I for one do not want to see arabians doing a show pony trot round the ring, nor do I want to see the audience sitting there afraid to speak (so as not to upset said show pony who has never got used to any noise).
My horses are desensitised to loud noises and music from an early age and none of mine now would take any notice if you played the 1812 overture at full volume!
Having said that I do not condone abuse, but showing and abuse are not exclusively the same thing. There is abuse in all horsey walks of life, top showjumpers rapped, dressage horses with chins strapped to chests, show ponies hideously overweight (its still abuse) and for that matter ridden ARABS hideously overweight.
As I said before this video shows a young filly trotting out quite nicely, she does fling her head a little whether this is expecting to be tugged or just excitement its difficult to tell, but if anyone looks at the rest of the videos most do not.
Anyways this same old argument will continue every year, especially after the UKIAHS. And so it will next year.
Delyth, I have only used 3 handlers, and they would be the ones to do it again if any of mine go showing. I would not use someone just to get a rosette the same as you! |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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A short video from last day of towerlands
