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glentullock
Bronze Member
109 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 11:07:39 AM
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Hi can anyone help or has anyone had the the same problem, i had my mare covered at my local stud last year and have requested the covering certificate ever since and i am getting every excuse under the sun as why i havent recieved it, i have checked and the stallion is licenced.
i have made numourous calls to the stud but they are now refusing to answer.
if anyone has any suggestions or has had this problem please let me know how u over come the problem.
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 11:10:25 AM
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| Could you try getting in touch with the stallions breed society and seeing if they could maybe help, i assume that he has been issued with covering certificates, they may be able to shed some light on it, good luck i hope that you get it sorted. |
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glentullock
Bronze Member
109 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 11:19:26 AM
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hi i have just rang ASH and they can only tell me that he is licenced and its down to me to get the certificate. and this was hid first year of covering and i am the only " outsider" that has used this stallion. so i now worried that he wont give it to me.
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 12:34:39 PM
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Do you have a receipt issued to you for payment of the covering of your mare with this stallion?
If so, would think the stallion owner is legally bound to issue a covering certificate.
If you do have a receipt of payment and the stallion owner refuses to give you a covering certificate, go back to the Arab Horse Society and they will best advise
I presume your mare has foaled.....then perhaps DNA would parentage prove and if so...surely AHS would be able to solve your problem by
allowing your foal to be registered??
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 11 Jul 2011 1:25:55 PM |
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glentullock
Bronze Member
109 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 1:05:55 PM
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Hi, i have already spoken to the ASH and they said there nothing they can do its down to me to get the covering certificert. looks like i will have to take legel action.
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 1:30:03 PM
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| This is silly, why won't they issue you with a certificate? Is there any other dispute going on with the stallion owner? |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
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glentullock
Bronze Member
109 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 9:06:49 PM
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| i honestly i dont know if anyone else has had any problems, to be honest the stud does not useally have outside mares or very few a year. The mare is part bred and stallion pure arab, i the problem i have is i want to sell this foal on and worried if i cant regester it i cant sell it. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 12:16:34 PM
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The AHS can't register your foal as by that stallion without a covering certificate, what if you were not being truthful and he wasn't the sire?
Please don't get me wrong as I am not trying to imply you are any way in the wrong but a year or two ago someone mailed me to ask for photos and details of my stallion, Spanish Crusader, as her friend had bought a filly by him and they were really excited. News to me as he is not at stud and the filly certainly wasn't by my stallion; I assume it wasn't registered but it was listed on Allbreedpedigree as by my stallion!
I have pm'd you.
Barbara |
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littlearabians
Gold Member
1323 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 1:09:16 PM
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I agree with Babara.... if AHS just issued coveringcertificates to any mare owner who wanted them, there would be no securety for us stallion owners in the form of foals that isnt by the stallion or mareowners not paying for the covering and therefore just go to AHS for coveringcertificate instead of paying the stallion owner.
Im like Babara not trying to say you belong in the above, but fact is they are out there and they play most of the cunning tricks you could possibly think off.
sadly there are also unhonest stallionowners out there. |
www.littlearabians.com
Classic Polish Arabians
Worcester based
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 1:35:03 PM
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I understand where littlearabians is coming from, and there are, and always will be, unscrupulous people.
However, in this day and age of DNA and parent verification, why would you need a scrap of paper? Surely it is not up to a breed society to be a debt collecting agency for the stallion owner. What about this particular case, who is there to protect the mare owner if the stallion owner will not issue a covering certificate? I personally think that any financial problems should go through the small claims court - not a breed society. |
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littlearabians
Gold Member
1323 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 1:51:53 PM
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if the foal is born and DNA samples from dam and foal is send off to be compared with DNA of the stallion in question and it proves the stallion is the sire, then AHS should in theory be able to "force" stallion owner to make a coveringcertificate... IF mareowner can PROVE she has paid for the covering.
i dont know if above is possible but i as stallionowner would find that being fair. |
www.littlearabians.com
Classic Polish Arabians
Worcester based
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 2:45:23 PM
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| I quite agree. This should be the acceptable course of action, but I don't think that the powers that be would agree! |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 3:11:04 PM
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hope you get it sorted  |
     
Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 3:53:19 PM
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As a stallion owner, have had personal experience of a mare owner not paying stud livery or stallion covering fees. Very craftily done....mare tested in foal. Owner asked us to deliver the mare back to her premises. She would not be there but would leave the cash with her gardener
OH obliged, gardener offloaded the mare and turned her out in the paddock. OH asked for the payment..."She has not left any money with me he said" "Will be back tonight if you want to ring her"
Many phone calls later, and promises of payment.....no cheque!!
A month later, saw the mare advertised in H & H stating she was tested in foal to our stallion!! Phone rang two days later....the purchaser of the Mare asking us for covering certificate...explained no payment for keep charges or covering had been made to us by the seller!! Buyer was furious, asked for her contact details.
A week later...in the post, a cheque in full payment, along with a very abusive letter from seller. Don`t know what the buyer had said to her, but whatever, she paid up and I duly forwarded the covering certificate to the purchaser, when the cheque had cleared through the Bank
The resulting filly foal, Warrendene Twilight Rose grew up into a HOYS winning PBA Riding pony mare, with ridden championships too numerous to mention.
Sorry to waiver from the thread but one case in favour of the trusting stallion owner and dishonest Mare owner.
Trust you will have a receipt of payment for covering, and along with DNA there should not be a problem with getting the foal registered, good luck
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 6:54:52 PM
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| Sorry if I've missed something but if your mare is part bred, the foal can only be registered as part bred. So in that case, the mare's registration alone makes the foal eligible so you could register the foal and not have the stallion details listed. You can let the AHS know and they can keep the details on file just in case but at the same time, they can issue the foal with a part bred registration and passport with sire details as "non Arab". I know it's not ideal but it will at least give you some registration and then you can sort out the conflict knowing that your foal is already registered. |
   www.eviepeel.com    |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2011 : 7:00:28 PM
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| I had this problem many years ago and eventually the secretary of the AHS sent me a certificate and said that they actually belong to the society and the stallion owner cannot withhold it. Any payment is between you and the stallion owner. I believe that it is something to do with them being a charity and it is in the rules. I would try again if I were you. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 09:40:01 AM
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Agree with you there Rachael...It seems maybe, that the mare is probably unregistered, or not having sufficient Arab blood to meet the minimum 12.50% requirement for registering the foal, otherwise the AHS would have advised her as you say, with no need for the sire details.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 2:27:03 PM
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I've always being haded the covering certificate at the same time I settled the bill. Sounds as if there is something wrong, is the horse registered and do they have him licened and at public stud.??
Rozy |
Sue
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 2:28:15 PM
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I've always being handed the covering certificate at the same time I settled the bill. Sounds as if there is something wrong, is the horse registered and do they have him licened and at public stud.??
and I always thought the Service Cert were issued by the breed society to the stallion owner or have I got it wrong.
Rozy |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 15 Jul 2011 2:40:25 PM |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 2:31:12 PM
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I know others (Delyth included) who have not received payment for their stallion's covering and keep fees and I am with the AHS in not registering foals without it; yes, DNA will prove who the foal is by and then when it is registered the stallion owner can kiss goodbye to any hope of getting their money!
I assume the youngster who was sold as being by my stallion was not registered and the purchaser was told that she could be. Sadly she couldn't and they would have had no idea who the sire was. I felt bad about deflating their balloon but it is nothing like they must have felt when I told them that Spanish Crusader was not her sire. It is a nasty business and the cheats should not be allowed to register their foals until they have paid up.
Sorry Rachelle, while the owner of a part bred foal may be able to register it without paying the stud fee they agreed IT IS TOTALLY DISHONEST! People who stand their stallions at stud don't put in all the time and effort required just to be ripped off by unscrupulous people.
Off my soap box now.
Glentullock, I hope you get things sorted as I am sure there are a few bad stallion owners as well as bad stallion users.
Barbara |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 3:05:00 PM
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No, no, no - sorry, I mustn't have made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting register the foal without paying the stud fee! What I meant was that if the stud fee has been paid and the covering certificate still isn't handed over, then the mare's registration should entitle the foal to registration.
I would never advocate registering without paying for stud fees.
And I also totally support DNA testing and agree that the AHS cannot, and should not, register foals without proof of parentage. The point I was trying to make is that this foal is a part bred and part bred foals aren't DNA tested (unlike pure and Anglo) and so given it has inherited enough Arabian blood from its dam (who is a part bred) to be eligible for registration (12.5%), then the foal can be registered without reference to the sire until any conflict is resolved.
When we stood our stallions at public stud, we learned the hard way - we covered a neighbours little Welsh mare - he brought her to us every day and then took her home after she'd been covered. He claimed she wasn't in foal and yet we saw her heavily pregnant and then with a foal at foot that was the image of our stallion. We were operating on a No Foal, No Fee basis and so he got a free foal. The only satisfaction I got was telling him that he could have got more for the mare and foal if the foal had been registered as a part bred.
We also bought a stallion and were then contacted several months later by someone saying that she had sent her mare to the stallion with the previous owner (bearing in mind that he wasn't actually licensed because he was only 2). She wanted me to say that the mare had been covered whilst I owned the stallion. I felt awful but I had to say no because I hadn't got any proof.
Now, when we send a mare away, we pay the stud fee as soon as we arrive(or even before she goes), it's all receipted and then when she leaves, all we pay is any livery and vets fees. |
www.eviepeel.com |
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jackiedo
Gold Member
England
1370 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 09:03:36 AM
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Can I ask why the certificate has been withheld?
When I has Zarello covered I settled up when we went to get her back from stud, I presumed that was the usual practice. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 10:14:47 AM
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glentullock...I guess you yourself can answer your problem. You have not actually stated if you have a "proof of payment" receipt for the covering of your mare.
A signed receipt, along with DNA testing should be all that is needed to register your foal. The covering certificate is AHS, not stallion owner`s property and the signature on your receipt can be compared with Stallion owners signature, which will be on AHS records.
If covering/keep fees have been withheld ...then no way should you be allowed to register your foal, until payment has been made.
Following my own experience, Visiting Mare owners have to pay all fees by cash or cleared Bank Cheque on collection of their Mare. Once bitten, twice shy. Just a pity one bad apple spoils it for honest folk.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 16 Jul 2011 10:17:04 AM |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 10:28:35 AM
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I have usually had the covering certificates for my mares after the foal is born. I have always paid promptly, did once pay by installments as I sent 3 mares to a very expensive stallion and couldn't afford all the stud fees, keep and vet fees at once. The stallion owner was fine about it (it was agreed before the coverings)! Fortunately so far all my deals have been done on verbal agreements and have worked well with honest people. I even gave Delyth the extra £400 due for a filly before she remembered it was owed! That is how things should be but unfortunately not everyone is honest.
Unfortunately, Rachelle, you have now made it clear that people can register their foals without a covering certificate, something many of us who only breed purebreds would not have known, so the cheats have a foal they can register and sell, allbeit not as a purebred, but if you don't have your own stallion the next best thing is a "free" covering!
I can see problems arising with the current economy and hope we won't be reading more of these threads.
Barbara |
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chris wesley
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
220 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 10:52:17 AM
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I for one believe that the AHS should impose penalties to stallion owners that refuse to forward a covering certificate especially if the mare owner has proof of payment for the covering .
I remeber taking 2 mares down to Wales to be covered by a top imported stallion. Deposits were paid , and the mares were allegedly covered and after 3 months keep scanned infoal. We had both mares scanned twice so you can imagine the keep fee's and costs . During the time the mares were at stud, I bought a stallion by the same sire as the one we were using .
We brought the mares home and paid almost 2000.00 in keep fee's and costs only for both mares to be empty an in season within a week or so of coming home . I called the stud and was told the stallion had returned home but we could use his son , I asked for the deposits back as we didn't want to use the son , and this was refused as the stud were having finacial difficulties. Needless to say I would never use or rececomend the stud again. |
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with holding covering certificate
