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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 6:00:53 PM
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As I have a seriously spooky horse that is starting to get on my nerves (and eroding my confidence) I'd like to know how to continue to despook him in the best way possible?? All tips, advise and suggestsions greatly appreciated.
I have the Michael Peace book (the 100% horse) and we've done loads of those exercises, like tarpaulin walking, umbrella opening/closing etc. and the lad is fine and enjoy doing that in the school. But it seems to have no effect to when it comes to the big bad world.
Today we went for a little walk in hand down the road and met a hang glider for the first time (quite a common sight on the Downs) and after stopping and staring for a while Mush was absolutely petrified. There was nothing I could do to calm him down. I obviously understand that a hang glider looks like a huge predator and they must be scary but how on earth do I despook him for that? And I'd like him to calmly think about what he's seeing rather than just go into dragon snorting passaging halfpass and explode home. There was no way I could go on walking (we were on the road and there were cars coming/going) so all I did was to turn back, try to deal with it in the pub car park but failing to do so, and then having to try and get back in one piece. What do you guys do when your horses have a panic attack??
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West Sussex |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 8:30:34 PM
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I think most horses would spook at a hang glider Shah. Couldn't blame them really it's not something you see every day. If you have a friend with a completely unspooky horse I would ride out with them to begin with and let yours get some confidence from the other horse. That would do wonders for your own confidence as well. At least it would for me so I'm guessing that it would help you.
Good luck I hope that you can get some help and he becomes easier for you. |
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 9:38:56 PM
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IMHO opinion Shah if you are at the stage where you have acknowledged that he is knocking your confidence you need to break the cycle. You will both be feeding from each others nerves by now.
Cant you get someone else to ride him/lead him for a while and you ride out with a bombproof horse to give him a lead. That way you will be watching him behave in a calmer manner before you get back on board.
I do feel for you. I got like that with my Jazz but we got help and now she is an angel.
Better to get help now before it becomes a habit and a good horse (or rider) is ruined.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
I think you should cut him some slack for the hang glider though. Most horses would be scared of them. |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 08:08:36 AM
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I completely agree that we need to break the cycle. I've tried hacking out with a bombproof horse - made no difference whatsoever. I like the idea about getting someone else to ride/lead. Will speak to YO (who's also a trainer) and see if she can ride him a couple of times with me on the bombproof horse.
Saddlebred, what help did you get with your Jazz? |
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 10:07:14 AM
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I agree about cutting him some slack with the Hang Glider! Even my 100% Bombproof Pasha nearly threw himself on the floor in blind panic when one came over the hill to us and I don't blame him! I did too 
What I always try and remember is that horses are prey animals and it is their natural response to flee - to expect them to think about things rationaly is in my view a bit to much to ask of them! What I try and work on is the bond/trust between us so that the horse looks to me first before running away and if I say it's ok, they trust me!
Shesky is going through a leap, spin and leg it faze at the moment - he will happily trundle past a huge tractor, road works etc but Electric Fencing O-M-G! He is a Toad  and I know it's because he's too fit to just amble about the countryside, but unfortunately I think he needs an hour walking at least once per week for his legs, so I force him to do it (very mean mummy). In my case, I just get on with it - he is no better or worse with company and I like a Sunday afternoon on our own to have a little chat to him so it's tough!
I hope you manage to crack it with Mush! Is he fit enough to lunge or school a bit before you take him out to take the edge off? Can you trot straight out and do the whole ride in trot and canter? If I do this with Shesky we get 0 spooks! Toad! |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 8:36:15 PM
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Tabita
Mush is an ex race horse that was still fit when you bought him.
You then has problems with him. He is now feeling better and behaving like an Arab who is feeling good.I would be strict with him otherwise he will rule you.
My observation of him is that he has you were he wants you, running around.
As for the Hand Glider was he frightened of it or was he feeling that way because you felt that way.
Maybe the semi collapsing is his way of shutting things out and the being spook is his way of reacting.
Trying being a bit tough with him.
Sorry for being a bit tough with you, but Mush will have you running around.You need to be strict with him but in a kind way.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
Edited by - Pauline on 14 Sep 2010 10:40:44 AM |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 11:27:24 AM
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I disagree with getting tough. You can't reprimand a horse for being scared. You have to build confidence and, yes, sometimes it can take a VERY long time with a horse that is only interested in self preservation.
How you react to his behaviour is a big key to breaking the cycle. I know it is hard when you start to lose your confidence, believe me I have been there....had the concussion to prove it!
Firstly I always use a 12ft line and halter.
Here is what I have done in the past when having to calm my mare down. She saw a child being carried on it's father's shoulders. Rooted herself to the spot, snorted, blew, then ran around me. Then came the danger of her not being aware of me and running straight through me.
I put my back up against a fence and directed her from left to right whilst disengaging her hind quarters to change direction. In effect she is running a semi circle and reaching the fence. (Hope I have explained that properly) I remained calm but kept her feet moving whilst asking for her attention.
The fact that you have allowed them to keep moving their feet whilst their adrenaline is up then allows them to calm down.
Whilst doing this I am making sure that my energy is down and my breathing is slow and I am practically sighing.
When back to normal, carry on as if nothing as happened and don't make a big deal of it.
I know that you have done some Parelli work before....have you taught Mush the seven games? Regardless of what others think of the programme, I think this is a really good foundation for safety and spacial (sp?) awareness.
I appreciate that you have had alot to deal with since purchasing Mush, but so has he. If he is getting on your nerves, then you really need to take a step back and decide whether this is the horse for you. If your heart isn't in it, then it doesn't matter what you do, he will know that and you won't progress. (I don't mean to offend, it is something that I had to ask myself previously).
Good luck,
Lisa
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saddlebred
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1706 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 1:10:16 PM
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Hi Shah
I have got a friend who is an instructor and a very confident rider. He started riding her for me and she didnt do it with him. Where I had got to stage where I was looking for the next thing for her to leap at he would school her one handed while on his mobile phone and she respected the fact that he wasnt scared.
He is someone who really understands horses though. There was no telling off needed. Just a confident rider who didnt react when she did anything. I just stopped riding her for a while and rode my other horse. Then we progressed to him riding her first and me doing the last half hour and went from strength to strength. She is like a little clockwork mouse now.
My friend also had a problem with her 16.2 TB x who was always bombproof. She got into the habit of snorting, spinning and running in the opposite direction when she saw cows which caused her to lose confidence. I could see that she was shortening the reins anticipating a problem which was making it worse. We swapped horses for a few weeks. She rode my horse and got her confidence back and I rode hers at the buckle end so she would think that I wasnt anticipating anything. Her "mad" horse went back to normal within a month.
I am sure you will get it sorted. The biggest hurdle is recognising that it is not you, and not the horse - but the two of you together at this point in time. Split you up for a bit and you with both get back on track. Better to get in nipped in the bud early on before it becomes a habit.
Good luck |
Based Bewdley Worcs |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 3:59:13 PM
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| Ha! Hangliders are about the worst except for those nasty zorb things on Devil's Dyke. I'll ring you T - perhaps you can come out with us at the weekend? Dont promise no spooking at either of these tho! x |
   
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 4:56:46 PM
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| Ooh i'm intrigued! What are nasty zorb things? |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 10:27:23 AM
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| They are large plastic orbs into which two people are strapped and then they push them down the hill (until they are sick according to my daughter who has had a go) Like being in a big hamster ball. Not horse friendly as you can imagine. |
West Sussex |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 10:57:04 AM
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geegee
I think if you read my post I said be tough in a kind way.
I have seen Mush recently and he is so much better and now I think he wants to be out working.
After all the bad press about Pat and Linda Parelli I would not recommend their method.
I think you will find that Shah uses Natural Horsemanship with Mush as she did with Shah. |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 11:16:40 AM
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Pauline, I did read your post. I don't understand how you can be tough in a "kind" way. Please give me an example so that I know what you mean.
Re Parelli, there is alot of good that has come from the programme. I know, because I have learned from it and seen the results. I have taken what I wanted from it and disgregarded the rest. Hence why I mentioned the seven games.
I have to say that there is alot worse going on every day in the Arab taining/show world - but that is another story and I wouldn't say that you shouldn't recommend training or showing for that reason alone. There is varying degrees of good and bad in all disciplines, including NH.
Anyhow, I have only replied to this post to give my advice on how I dealt with a spooky horse. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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kath
Gold Member
United Kingdom
943 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 9:15:33 PM
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Can you get someone else - an extra brave/fearless person - to hack him out? I think you are now anticipating him spooking (and i know that feeling!) so you will be feeding each other
I also agree with Pauline. Of course you can be tough but kind - it doesnt mean beating them if they spook, it just means saying "ok its scary,but you can get on with it now" Let him look, but then say - go on, you can do it! Horses need a leader, and you need to provide that mental support for him to tell him its alright to have a look, but its also ok to walk on |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 08:16:21 AM
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Oh Kath, if only it was that easy. I have a mare that you could NOT push along if she is scared. It would be the last thing that you did.
There are some horses that you just CANNOT push out of their comfort zone. You will be asking for trouble.
My guess is that when Mush reaches the point of outwardly showing his anxiety, there is a very fine line between him coming back from it and going over the edge of it. Very much like my mare. If you get it wrong, you PAY for it.
A horse that suffers from separation anxiety, who is highly instintive and has a long flight path is a horse that needs very careful handling and understanding.
My other suggestion would be to look into positive reinforcement and a very good way of getting results using this method, is clicker training. You can teach your horse to find his "safe" place and be in control of his own emotions. This has worked wonders for my mare.
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 08:36:27 AM
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Thanks guys - lots of good advise. The reason for my post was to try and see if anyone had any practical ideas for what kind of despooking we can do over the next few months. I would, for example, love to do a police horse despooking session but I don't know if anyone close to us down in the south arrange them????
Lisa - I know exactly what you mean, I have done that with him in the past when I've been in a position to do so. At the moment we seem to have problems when we're on the road with cars coming by or when we're on a narrow bridlepath - where it's impossible to disengage in any way. Yes we've done all the seven games and I'm working on some lessons in the '101 horsemanship exercises' book at the moment. I don't want to bore him so we're keeping things varied. And yes you're spot on with your guess about how he reacts. You cannot see on him that he's nervous about anything (hence the ulcers, collapsing etc.) until we get to 'the edge' where he will explode in one way or another.
Will try to find my clicker (have the book) but have been wondering how to teach him about the clicker as he doesn't eat carrots/apples and I need to find a non-sugary option to give him as the treat. He will eat molassed horsey treats but I can't give them to him as he's intolerant to sugars. Will grass do? |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 08:48:58 AM
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Anything works with clicker training, a scratch, a treat (grass nuts is what i use), a release of pressure even, as long as there's a reward or primary reinforcer there. Clicker training is amazing. I don't use a clicker either, i find it too cumbersome, just me and my horse , i find a click with my tongue works, they no exactly what that noise means!
If you haven't already, google Alexandra Kurland.....
Ros |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 08:55:58 AM
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| Another one to google is a lady called Amanda who runs the SMAART horse company. She trained with Alexandra Kurland. She is also a member of the naturallyhorses email group. The information that you get on there is mind blowing..... |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 4:51:42 PM
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Oh, do you get their emails too lisa? Isn't ikt fantastic? I'm a bit of a lurker, so many great horse women and men on there. I have learned so much by reading those emails. So much inspiration!
Ros |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 5:28:41 PM
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| I do, Ros. I am also a bit of a lurker but find the topics so interesting and in depth. Very inspiring..... |
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Nut
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 9:23:42 PM
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Hi Shah, in terms of general despooking work, to get ready for the county shows this season which have lots going on and plenty of advertising banners and the like, we got everyone at the yard to save their birthday banners, bunting from school fayres, hellium ballons from parties etc. and I started flying them off the sides of the manages during schooling sessions, not all at once to start but one by one until i could have the entire manage covered on all sides. We still havent conquered the fear of advertising boards but gradly we have built up the confidence of riding past these objects in all weathers and in all winds (interesting when you start!). I dont hack off the yard as we have 100 acreas and there is a track around the edge for hacking but one of mine wont go alone and was so spooky on my own that it was chipping away at my confidence so i taught him to long rein. The confidence it built as he had to be out in front on his own listening to my voice was amazing, and if he did go to spook i had the two long rein lines to send him on and reassure him.
All of this took time and patience but is paying off. Good luck with Mush |
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kath
Gold Member
United Kingdom
943 Posts |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member
Australia
795 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 10:19:48 AM
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Could you get someone like Richard Maxwell out? He has been helping a colleague on the yard and he helped me with backing Eba. Otherwise, the Ride with your Mind lady near me (Essex) does despooking clinics. Is there anyone like that near you?
Some horses are just more fearful than others, but I think a lot could be done through building a relationship on the ground. Also, if you are in West Sussex, have you considered doing something like an equine shiatsu course for owners. I know there is a school near Brighton. It would help you spend quality time with him and in the process help with destressing him which can only be a good thing.
Hope you work it out, it is terrible when your confidence goes. With me, it isn't the incidents themselves sometimes, as the phobia I get from the what could have happened scenarios that I create in my head, and then I think the horses feed off those. This happened to me when I had an accident with Eba when she was little. Fortunately I have overcome those issues and spending a couple of years now building up the bond so that I think she looks to me rather than runs.
Chin up.
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 9:17:06 PM
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Hi Shah
Think hang glider is valid for Mush to be scared of - could be giant bird of prey that his mum warned him about as a foal v scary!!!
None of this is about tough/not tough, it's about what works making your horse braver, without scaring/injuring yourself.
Cinny used to be in the not brave camp - have found that gentle persistence worked well - as she was far less confident when ridden - so if something really scared would get off and be with her (at head) to help her overcome whatever she was scared of, then try ridden.
If scary in hand agree re lunge rein.
Or if only ridden spooky - could learn to long rein so that Mush learns to be confident, but you don't have to be on him and put yourself in danger.
Clicker training also v useful - especially with bright horses.
Good luck
Susi
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Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
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Despooking sessions
