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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 5:04:18 PM
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I think people have very different ideas about what goading, shanking and a frozen pose is. One person will say its not, another will say it is. I can show you photos, and I dare anyone to say if they are 'frozen' or not. Soooo who is right? My filly has been shown this year with the chain captive, but she will I am sure have been pulled on to get her attention or for her stand up, she is young and easily distracted. Is this shanking?? No chain, no pain? Its no different to me pulling her on her headcollar, but another might see this as shanking................
Personally I am fed up with non breed related 'reporters' (said in the loosest sense of the word) trying to relay their feelings about something they know nothing about. Only to cause detriment to that breed or their handlers/owners. Do they have nothing better to do.
And hear hear regarding the H&H going to pot, now hunting is banned they seem to have to look for someone else to pick on because all their fun is gone (eg. tearing foxes, hares and rabbits to pieces, such lovely people) |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
Edited by - Pashon2001 on 12 Aug 2010 5:06:03 PM |
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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 5:48:58 PM
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I was there for all three days and there WAS goading, shanking and excessive circling of horses, horses down on their stifles etc they arent stock horses, quarter horses or spanish horses can be pulled in tight circles like this due to shoulder and elbow placement- arabs not so much.
Stallions did roar as they were too close to each other, why there could not have been two rows is a mystery! |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 6:15:41 PM
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Since we have had a number of threads on this forum with people deploring ( and defending) some of the methods that have crept in, is it any surprise that this has been picked up on in the horsey press?. We want to promote our breed, we want to overcome the often held image that Arabs are mad, hyper and only fit for looking at with their pretty heads etc. Then a journalist goes to our big show, no doubt with some preconceived ideas about Arabs and showing, and whether or not things were as bad as described, she was obviously given enough material to either form the views expressed or re enforce the views she already held. Whether or not she had an agenda, if she had not been able to observe some of the behaviour she couldn't have written about it. and in answer to the original post, yes I am sure this is how the Arab world is perceived.
Frankly I find the defence that other horse fraternities do worse things to their horse quite bizarre, it's hardly a justification is it? |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 12 Aug 2010 6:17:50 PM |
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Lorna
Bronze Member
England
98 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 6:22:32 PM
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Babs, well said, I totally agree with you. It's not only at the Nationals that arabs are whirled, twirled. It's about time the pure bred brigade looked to their laurels, they are a laughing stock. A friend of mine who produces ridden horses, mountain & moorlands, cobs & does endurance (and really loves arabs) went to my local Regional Group Show, she stayed half an hour as she was horrified and disgusted by the way the in-hand arabs were shown with all the whirling, twirling, shouting & banging. She asked me if the in-hand horses ever got over their traumatic experiences in the in-hand ring and whether they stayed sound as they were yanked back down on their hocks.
Thank god our lovely anglos and part breds are not shown like this. I'm of an age when arabs DID NOT need to be hyped up and they still moved beautifully.
Enough of my soap box, well done H & H, it's about time someone had the guts to print the truth.
Lorna |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 6:55:37 PM
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Before I say anything more, I want to caveat this by saying that I truly believe the vast number of people who show Arabian horses do so in a professional and caring way and they love their horses. There are others who, with all the best intentions in the world, try and emulate others and adopt practices and behaviours that maybe they wouldn't without witnessing them. And there are others who really don't see the horse as a living, breathing spirit but see it only as an accessory to boost their own reputation or standing.
So, having said that, and having a deep rooted belief in the caring love of 99% of owners/producers here is my personal experience:
A handler sitting in my living room and explaining techniques they themselves had been taught or witnessed:
- a stallion kept so hyped up that it needed someone with it 24x7 in its stable and who had a vet on stand-by as it came out of the show ring to sedate it to get it home because it was so hyper
- horses having pieces of electric fencing taped to the headcollar near the poll to make the horse jerk its head into position with eyes popping
- a ridden horse deprived of water for 2 days then allowed to drink excessively before going in to compete in the belief the added weight of the water coupled with mild dehydration would make it easier to ride
- shanking the chain whilst running a flame from a cigaratte lighter under the horse's chin to make it arch its neck to get the swan neck with popping eyes. In the show ring, rattle the chain and voila - horse assumes it's going to be burned and sticks its neck out
An in-hand training course I attended where we were told:
- position people in the crowd to open large bags of crisps, open and umbrella or rattle bottles with stones in or generally make a disturbance
- feed a yearling nothing but oats for 5 days before a show so that it explodes off the wagon and "don't worry about getting home, you can always get the vet to knock it out but the main thing is, you'll have the red ribbon"
when I pointed out that we were basically being told how to cheat, I was told "you're paying me to learn how to win red ribbons if you don't like what I'm saying then be happy to lose for the rest of your life"
when I pointed out that the horse's welfare came first and I didn't want a yearling totally out of its mind on oats, I was told "oh, they've got years when they're out of the show ring, what does a few hours messed up head matter?"
When I've been competing at shows
- having another competitor wind it's horse up by waving a lunge line at it and "accidentally" hitting the legs of nearby horses - not once but many times
- in a young colt class having another competitor with a particularly showy and aggressive colt run into the back of my horse repeatedly so that my boy was permanently looking over his shoulder
- watching a handler deliberately take a 3 year old colt to someone else's stabled mare (whose owner wasn't in sight and who didn't know it was happening)to get the colt to become more expressive and prance (he drew fully as well). The mare kicked out and hit her leg quite badly on the door and when questioned, the colt handler said they didn't care because it had worked and the colt looked "impressive"
- a friend's horse who was having a successful season having a corrosive liquid thrown over it at a major show
And then let's not forget the very personal case of Harley who suffered all his trauma because the initial incident was someone trying to get a good photo and decided to stallion bait him and another stallion - the other stallion broke out after the photo shoot, attacked Harley, Harls went down with stress colic, was left cast for 7 hours and the rest is history - liver failure, fractured pedal bone, abuse to teach him tricks when he couldn't be ridden. 4 years later, at last, Harls is now the horse I always thought he would be.
So, with this catalogue of abuse, we turned our backs on the showing world. It was a very considered and deliberate thing. Yes, we still miss it and we will still probably dip a hoof with the babies to give them ring experience.
I'm not saying abuse doens't happen in other breeds or in other disciplines but then again, we don't show other breeds and so the only first hand evidence we have is of our beloved Arabians.
What I do know most definitely is that since turning our back and going out into the wider world, it has definitely put things in perspective. Arab owners are laughed at and our methods are questioned. Maybe us more than other breeds because our horses are so distinctive and we stand out. Maybe because, for the Arabian breed, the whole structure of the Society is geared around showing. I don't know. But I know I don't like what I've seen and I've done what was suggested on the other forum - if you don't like it, don't do it. But just because some of us elect to walk away doesn't stop the general - and deserved - criticism.
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   www.eviepeel.com    |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 7:18:24 PM
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I wasn't at Malvern this year - largely because I was sickened by what went on last year! But while what was described may not have gone on in one section of one day in one place at that particular event, anyone who tries to claim that it is NOT typical of what happening at many Arab shows across this country is either very ill-informed or utterly naive!
Using a report of one event to bring a larger issue forward for public scrutiny is a long-established and valid journalistic technique - one that I bet most of you will have applauded when bringing other issues to your attention.
I certainly agree with those who have cried 'shame' on those who try to excuse what is being done to our beloved horses by instancing other cruelties - NO cruelty of any kind can be excused or justified by this kind or argument. Would you justify starving your own child by saying that your neighbours beat theirs? I shouldn't think so!
Keren |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 7:20:43 PM
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Well said Rachael. Absolutely shocking, even worse that I dared to believe
As you say....it is the few who carry out these despicable practices that have brought about the ridicule of the Arabian Horse...very very sad
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 8:10:26 PM
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I agree with everything the article said unfortunately! And before everyone shouts and whines.. its nothing that's not been said on her time and time again by ourselves!
Why shouldn't nag+dog report how ridiculous it all is? lets face it nothing was inaccurate, rules are contravened all the time,the horses are over hyped and many of the supporters are ridiculous in the noise and OTT behaviour they exhibit!
susie |
   
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
Edited by - phoenixbruka on 12 Aug 2010 8:15:17 PM |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 8:26:10 PM
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MMMMMMM.... Well it would have been nice to put a picture in of the Supreme ridden of the show, proving how wonderful the breed is undersaddle....But obviously they saw fit to write whatever they wanted and use the space to yet again bring our wonderful beautiful arab into disripute...This is now enhancing what the horse fraternity already think of our breed and opens the doors for them to slate and persicute the breed even more....
Whether you agree of disagree with the points mentioned, I don't really think anyone who truly loves the breed could posibbly think this sort of publicity is a good thing, can they???? |
Fiona Grant-Chivers |
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kath
Gold Member
United Kingdom
943 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 8:33:21 PM
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I wasnt at Malvern so cant comment on what happened there.
No matter whether horses were goaded, frightened, or not...they ARE shown in a totally alien way to 'normal' show horses (save possibly Welshes) and therefore they are going to attract attention. And tbh to the outside observer it is a crazy way to show a horse - if you look at it from a purely objective point of view, to encourage a horse to snort & blow in the way we do with Arabs is a bit of strange way to be able to show off their paces & conformation!
I think this is why the Arab attracts such attention. I suggest that anyone who was at Malvern and disagrees with the Talking Point - and from this thread, there are a few of you ;) - writes to H&H and give examples of the successful in hand Arabians who have gone on to have success under saddle |
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nissibay
Gold Member
England
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 8:54:09 PM
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As someone who is hoping to get into showing with my new filly, it all sounds horrific and makes me question if i want to get involved, hopefully if i stick to what is right for my horse and me and try not to get involved or am i being nieve?? its extreamly worrying thinking that peoples horses are being injured or Sabotaged as a result of people desperated for the win
Are these horrific stories being carried out by the people we all know that are sucsessful in this country???
can anyone be trusted in this showing world?
I did speak to someone at a big show who said they kept guard of there horse incase someone did something, i didnt take them seriously, but obviously its true..... |
Sheen 
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Jess.And.Tiger
Silver Member
England
344 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:12:18 PM
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I hate how focus H&H is on slagging off the inhand side of our championships when they missed the other 90% which showed off our wonderful breed in the ridden classes which included us young riders, the show jumping, the dressage and the western...
People need to start looking past the inhand and using that as an excuse and a reason to hate and kick our special breed down...
I personally don't like the way welsh's are show inhand and I personally think it's worse than the arab inhand but you rarely read about that being put down....
We need to show our breed for the wonderful riding horses and companions they ARE and not for the hot sharp inhand horses they are MADE to be.
But the equestrian media never see any reason to focus on this, in my opinion there is bad in every breed things that you can pick out... the inhand world of arabians I feel is one of the big factors arabs have a bad name, but I don't think you will ever change it. But people wont look past it, it will never be pushed as side to reveal the wonderful sight of the ridden arabian there will always be a shadow of a flighty inhand horse.
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:14:56 PM
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Oh look, usual stuff from the usual suspects!! I must have been at a different show??? This is pathetic and nowhere near the true reflection of the show...And before anyone starts shouting their mouth off I was with the ridden arabs, you know, the ones who have been shown inhand and won't ever be able to do ridden showing... Perhaps some of you should get together and start your own Society....
Post edited to comply with forum rules |
Angel
Passion Arabians
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amyribbon
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:19:25 PM
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I think I was at a different show too!! I know I am new to this all but even so. I feel very defensive to the Arab after reading H&H today. I'll be cancelling my subscription to H&H too!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where was the ridden champion? And the part-bred?
Amy!! |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
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tiny
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
161 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:28:21 PM
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Hear hear Angel it is the same old same old. And i had the same horse in both the novice ridden stallions and the in hand class too....poor baby must have been traumatised for life. I for one am fed up with the same crap being spoutited time and time again and the writer of the H&H article is obviously biased and ill informed. There was one stallion that drew but hey give the poor fella a break we all get a little horny from time to time!!
Those bring the breed into disrepute are those with big mouths and bigger opinions!! Get over yourselves people have heard it chosen to ignore it and are quite frankly fed up with it!!!
Oh and Fiona sweetie you really wouldn't want your picture in a magazine so full of S**T that has such a biased oppinion of the breed would you?!?
The Show was fabulous i for one had a great time loved every moment and am very greatful to everyone that worked so hard to make it a great success (oh except for the stupid woman that had a go at me for cheering my own horse!) |
claire fowler |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:29:30 PM
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I have not now or EVER condoned cruelty in any shape or form and by saying what happens in other breeds and fraternities does not mean I DONT know dreadful things happen in our OWN breed ! god! why do people take what I say as condoning???? I have to walk on glass when saying anything here for fear of it being twisted around !
If I see a horse visibly trembling I can gather that horse has been frightened in some way. if I see the handler in a threatening pose and a lot of people will know what I mean when they have been to international venues, there are certain signals they teach the horses that are attached to punishment . none of these thing do I condone
!. |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:45:56 PM
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| Lyndilou, I was certainly not accusing you of condoning cruelty, I wouldn't be so rude, and I think there is enough mudslinging on some topics on this forum without me joining in. I apologise if you think my comment is directed at you. I am sure you don't condone cruelty. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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LOU
Gold Member
England
637 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 9:54:51 PM
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Fiona you should have had a Picture your boy is devine with manners to die for
I cant stand these people who SL-G off arabian owners, I will not even comment on the cruelty that goes on in other breeds/types you wouldnt want to know.
I am going to cancel my subscription to the H&H and will never pick up another issue again they dont even mention the weeks HOYS qualifiers like they do the SHOW PONIES, RIDING HORSES, CHAPS, HUNTERS, ISRT, ETC they havnt the time for Arabians, nor have I for the HORSE AND HOUND
I had a British National Champion and my daughter was Reserve BNC with her PB pony against the adults not a mention for her either. HOW RUDE!
Lou
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:02:46 PM
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| Personally I think a well worded letter to the editor asking why these results were not published and why you are cancelling your subscription would be a more positive reaction, if you just cancel your subscription they won't know why. Congratulations to you and your daughter by the way. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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angel2002
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:14:59 PM
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Was that with an 'ex' inhand horse by any chance Lou ;) You know, one that would have been scared Sh*tless for life by tesco bags, rattling tree branches, screaming, whooping and shouting etc....
Oh and when is Darcy, that STUNNING multi-winning UK/European inhand gelding of yours going to be out under saddle? Oh sorry, according to those 'in the know' he won't be able to be ridden... |
Angel
Passion Arabians
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Edited by - angel2002 on 12 Aug 2010 10:19:28 PM |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:15:35 PM
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Whatever you say on here someone will argue...........and just my tuppence worth, any stallion that needs a 24/7 guard to stop it breaking out and needs doping for the return journey should NOT be a stallion................. Bugger the hyping up, it must be a psycho to start with. Are we saying this same beast is quiet and tractible at home, doubt it. Right I'm standing in the line of fire (but I'm used to it)
On a different note it is disgusting that the pb's anglos, ridden etc was not commented on. |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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Nick
Gold Member
United Kingdom
887 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:28:24 PM
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I stopped reading the Horse and Hound several years ago,They were running Horse of a lifetime articles, With people in the real Horse World, So many stories ended in the same sentence they ended their career by being turned away, What does that mean after a glittering career throw them out??And then they were DISPACHED,posh speak for shot,
And then 3 day events, Huge solid fences,live endangering for Horse and rider horses being asked time and time again to risk all for entertainment,
And then Racing breaking Horses at 18 months Horses bred for one thing only speed, nothing else temperament is not important,
Imagine this Horse just ran the Gold Cup coming up to the finishing line,and a wall of sound tens of thousands cheering screaming,
Endurance Horses with low pulse rate can apply,
Prince Philip Driving teams of Horses round obstacles and driving them hard,
Hunt Horses fully clipped sweating and hanging around in freezing weather,
Ridden Hunters and Cobs shown in a morbid state of obesity
Where is the negative Horse and Hound reporting then,
And then the Ponies no will not go there do not want to sound like a Horse and Hound reporter.
Nick |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:30:08 PM
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I think it was Roseanne who in a comment on the AGM here on AL pointed out that H&H gave Council full notice that in view of last years affair, the AHS would be under close scrutiny this year?
What a shame that those who were in position to stop the goings on this year did not choose to heed that warning!
I also understand that, in order to cut costs, there was NO security on Saturday night, and that a serious incident occurred? Has anyone more details?
Any external help the AHS gets in damaging its own reputation is largely superfluous, when there are those who should have more responsibility doing a good job of ruining it by their own actions - and more damningly, their INactions!
Keren |
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AHS NATIONAL SHOW H & H "TALKING POINT"
