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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:44:27 AM
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I've done a search through the archives and there's nothing on this forum about leaky gut. Has anyone come across this and if so, how have they treated it? Also called leaky gut syndrome or dysbiosis.
All I can find on googling it is how to prevent it but very divided opinions about how to treat if it's already in existence.
We're still digging and digging to find the root cause of Mush's problems. After starting the high oil diet for the PSSM he's also developed LV (autoimmune problem). Something is going on inside him that we just can't control at the moment. Vet doesn't have a clue and can't give me more advise. I'm starting to wonder if the problems are connected to the colic/tape worm episode we had last December hence the leaky gut theory.
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West Sussex |
Edited by - shah on 13 Aug 2010 1:09:11 PM
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 5:53:56 PM
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Poor Mush, he's really been through it! I can't believe he now has LV too!!! I swore after my two that i would never ever get a horse with white socks again!
Try calling Roger Hatch at Trinity consultants. Ruby was thought to have a leaky gut due to red worm migrating larvae, but it was never proven and her worm counts all came back normal (i know they would with larvae, but she'd been wormed regularly from when i'd got her!).
She eneded up with a cholongiohepatitis, and a whole gamut of other stuff (including LV interestingly!). It was Roger hatch's L94 that started her on the road to recovery when i was really starting to dispair! She is now 95% right, and this time last year we started to think we might lose her and it got worse over the winter!
Poor Mush, I hope he's on the mend soon!
xx |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:29:33 AM
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I know, I too said I'll never have a horse with white socks or pink heels again  At least I know how to manage the LV!! Anyway, my theory at the moment is that it's actually a symptom of something else going wrong. I quietly suspect that if we can resolve the leaky gut the LV will go away on its own. But that's just a theory, nothing proven. Vets are not very good on metabolic problems in my experience. They are good at treating symptoms but not so good on finding causes.
Spoke to Roger yesterday and a bottle of his black gold (a24) turned up this morning. Mush is already on Roger's liquid vit e after the tying up episode. Two weeks trial on the gut stuff from now onwards. I too want him better before the winter sets in. He's not been right since we had the tape worm. If it is worm damage the future doesn't look too rosy.  |
West Sussex |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:49:59 AM
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I don't know, they are amazing at healing themselves and with Roger's help, you never know!
We never found the cause of Ruby's problems, but i suspect leaky gut (i forgot to say she had a HUGE worm burden when she came to me! Literally writhing masses of worms were passed! Thank god i wormed her when she came, as her breeder had she was up to date!!!!!).
I agree about vets. Treat the symptoms, and not the cause, that's certainly what happened with mine. It was really left to me to find things out, and no one else seemed to think everything was related, and refused to look at the whole picture. But then i guess that's what it's all about, a good relationship with vet or owner is about communication and each doing their bits of research. A vet can't be expected to do all the leg work during the 30 minutes they're with the horse, i guess it's up to us owners to monitor, watch and record what's going on. sometimes a diagnosis can't be reached without both the owner and the vet digging!
One thing i have done is take all mine off any feed or suppliments that contain chemicals or man made things. They have a natural feed, any wound creams or fly sprays i use are natural products. The lady i buy my food off says that horses are like canaries used in old mines. They're so sensitive, that often when we're things that we think are doing them good, they're literally poisoning them! However, i always use chemical wormers as i'm not convinced there's any other way at this stage.
How are you dealing with his L.V now? Is he getting out in daylight?
Ros x |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:36:38 AM
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| I can recall Delyth Gamlin Brown posted about a non conventional/chemical wormer, as usual I can't remember all of the details but perhaps if you pm her.......8) |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 11:57:42 AM
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| Oh, that sounds interesting....i'll message her x |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 1:13:36 PM
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Just spoken to the vet who thinks it's gastric ulcers rather than leaky gut as leaky gut would normally lead to peritonitis and he would be worse than he currently is.
So, vet wants me to read all about equine ulcers over the weekend and then give him a call back on Monday to decide what to do. He explained about how they do the gastro scoping to check for ulcers (nasty as the poor horse has to be starved for 12 hours), treatment with Gastroguard (expensive but covered by insurance), and said that the long term prognosis is good.
I'm not at all sure about doing gastro scoping - has anyone here had it done and how did their horse react??? |
West Sussex |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 2:46:41 PM
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I had my boy gastroscoped for ulcers earlier this year as part of an ongoing effort to find out the root cause of his issues.
I was so worried about the whole process I can't tell you. It made me ill worrying about starving him etc. He is stabled every night but is used to having ad lib hay and a small feed night and morning. I had to take away all feed the night before and take water away in the morning. I was horrified thinking how he would cope because he loves his food!
The good news is that he coped with it astonishingly well. There was no frantic neighing or battering of the door (which he usually does if his feed is late!) I think he realised I was doing it for a reason  
My vet knows Tim Brazil and arranged for Tim to come and scope him. They worked together and the whole process was really easy with no problems. If you have a large stable with electricity it's simple for them to carry out. My boy was sedated (the worst part is when they put the tube up the nose) and he was very brave. It was fascinating to see what was going on inside him! He soon rallied round and I was so glad I had it done. He had very slight ulcers so we tried him on gastroguard for a short period but it made no difference to his symptoms. My insurance covered all of it and the surprising thing was that its the gastroguard that is the major cost!
Good luck with your boy, I hope you get some answers soon  |
Heléna
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 5:58:43 PM
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| so sorry to hear mush is still having problems, here`s hoping the vet gets on top of it soon.xxx |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 6:15:29 PM
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My friend's filly had ulcers and was given Gastroguard. She also gave the horse probiotic powders in her feed which helped a lot.
I can imagine how worrying having a procedure like this is, but it will be worth it if you get a step closer to knowing what's wrong. It's the not knowing that is so wearing.
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Roseanne |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 09:35:46 AM
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We have decided to go for the gastro scope and we're booked in for next Monday morning. Scary! But I'm kind of really looking forward to it as I desperately need to get to the bottom of all Mush's problems.
Part of me is hoping it was ulcers all along and once we get rid of them I'll have my nice, kind, gentle, non-spooky, non-nappy lad back. But part of me is worried because the iridologist pointed out that ulcers are normally very easy to spot in horses and she saw none on Mush when she was here two months ago so it means that if he has them, he would have developed them within this time. That's good as they should then be easy to treat, but that then still leaves us with questions about everything that went on beforehand. Is there worm damage on the gut? Was the collapsing just due to the yard stress? Was the tying up related to the ulcers? Is the napping due to ulcers? Is the continuing thrush related to the ulcers? Will the muscle problems and LV disappear once the ulcers have gone or will he have that for life now? Plenty of questions and no answers.
He's been on two gut related products (Roger's A24 and pink powder) for a week now and no progress yet. But it will take some time and I'm hoping we find ulcers next Monday and can start Gastrogard straight away. |
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 09:54:51 AM
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| Good lord Tabita!!! Keeping fingers crossed that everything goes ok and you get answers! xxx |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 1:49:07 PM
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Grade one ulcers diagnosed and large areas of pre-ulcer discolouration found during the gastro scope this morning. So we're starting on Gastrogard tomorrow. One month on full dose and one month on a quarter dose, then re-scope to check progress.
No need for rest apparently. Vet wants me to ride as soon as the GG kicks in and the ulcer pain disappears, which should be within a week. Looks like we caught it early, and it didn't look it they've been there very long either. Vet thinks they have appeared as a result of the changes in his life.
There is a cloud on the horizon though. The ulcers didn't cause the tying up. As it's not recurred vet isn't worried, he just said that it's most likely to have been cause by 'something metabolic'. Not helpful...
Low starch/low sugar/high fiber/high oil diet and he's not allowed to stand indoors with nothing to eat (the most difficult task at the moment as YO doesn't have enough hay so means I have to go out and try source some hay for Mush and it's like hen's teeth down here this year). Any ideas for what else we can give him if we can't find enough hay? He can't be out 24/7 because of his sleep problem. |
West Sussex |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 1:56:46 PM
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What about BIG bowlfuls of something like Simple Systems feeds to fill him up if you haven't got enough hay. The feeds are forage-based with no cereals i.e. based on Lucerne and on grass. Personally, I'd give the Helpline a call; they're all helpful but I'd specifically ask to speak to Jane (van Lennep).
On a positive note, it does sound as though you're taking more steps forward than backwards with Mush at this stage!
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 5:55:35 PM
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| What about something like Dengie Hi Fi good doer - it can be used as a full or partial hay replacer could you use this to eke out your hay supplies? We bought some for our rather fat weshie, but discovered all of our lot rather liked it. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 8:36:18 PM
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| Just checked in to see how Mush's gastroscope went. Glad to hear you caught it early. What about getting some readigrass or other dried grass and giving him a big tub trug of that? My boy is never left without hay, day or night. He has it in his shelter in the field year round as well, whatever the weather. I really do think this is critical for my boy, constant access to ad lib hay. Good luck trying to find the hay, I've been lucky so far but am always worried about my supply drying up. |
Heléna
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 07:32:54 AM
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I think i'd go for big tubs of stuff too. Either, hi fi, simple systems, readi grass might blow his brain (it did my 2 year olds when she was on box rest!)
The other alternative is to have a look round haylage suppliers this year. I have got some absolutely superb timothy haylage that was baled in early june in all that hot weather. He was going to make hay, then baled if at the last minute because rain was forecast (then it never did rain!) so it's like wrapped hay almost. It's gorgeous, very high fibre and they absolutely LOVE it! Where are you? I know my supplier delivers throughout the midlands
x |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 5:34:53 PM
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I have been able to buy some hay so he's now getting a full net every morning (small holed, two nets doubled up inside) but we've discovered that he only actually eats very little. It takes him ages to pick at it  Will try some Simple System LucieBrix if we start to run out of hay later in the winter.
It's been 5 days on Gastrogard and so far not an ounce of difference in him... Vet said it should be a nearly instant thing (that's clearly wrong), most people say it takes 3 days to see a difference, in some cases however it can be up to 10 days before you see an improvement. We're obviously in the last category |
West Sussex |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 3:23:28 PM
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Mush has now been on Gastrogard for 14 days and there's a clear difference in his mood. After about 10 days he finally started to mellow and I can now cuddle him in the stable again, I can groom as usual and he's stopped biting/kicking me 
We have another two weeks of full dose left to do, then another month on 1/4 dose to make sure, and another gastroscope at some point to check that he's healed completely.
It's lovely to have my gentle kind mannered boy back 
There's still a 'but' on the horizon. I'm baffled as to why he's so short striding in trot, why he's still not good in corners, and of course why he tied up back in July. He also occasionally trembles with a leg before I ask him to pick it up. Any ideas anyone? |
West Sussex |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 08:29:36 AM
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SO glad he's feeling better in himself!
Re the foot/leg/lameness thing. Is he shod? Is he worse on stones than soft surfaces? Is he worse turning in one direction, or is it both?Could it be foot sensitivity? If he's sore on one foot, he's be reluctant to pick up the other. Not sure.
I'm so glad you've made some positive steps though! xxx |
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Goldenmane
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4964 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 09:20:44 AM
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| Have just read this, could not offer advice as no experience, just hope he keeps improving. |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 5:50:39 PM
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He is unshod (we're rehabilitating his feet) but he's not footsore so that's not the problem.
However, we think we've sussed it. On Wed he trotted lame in the school and I could clearly see that it's the stifle that's bothereing him so after a chat with the vet we deduced that it's very likely to be a sticky stifle or possibly early fixation of the patella due to him being unfit. As he's gone from being very fit to unfit everything is slacking behind. So the recipe is lots of hill work and correct schooling plus trotting poles to build up his hind muscles again. I'm beginning to think that it's been the stifles all along and perhaps not pssm, but time will tell. |
West Sussex |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 8:26:14 PM
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So happy you're getting somewhere with Mush Tabita How's the sleep falling, has it stopped?
Fee |
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brockle
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
166 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 08:46:01 AM
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| I have a cob - being ridden again now! - with laminitis which we mentally view in the same way as alcoholism. Really worried about the best way to feed him to avoid problems like ulcers etc and a friend said have a look at the yahoo group, the metabolic horse. It is intended primarily for Laminitics, IR and Cushings but ulcers and diet come up too. It has been very interesting learning from the problems and solutions, like this panel. |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 5:56:03 PM
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What a great analogy about lami being like alcoholism, I like that! Yes, agree about the yahoo group being very good, I've joined and been on there lurking looking for information.
Fee - we thought we were getting somewhere with the collapsing. He then did it in the stable when a friend of mine came and we were standing talking in the stable with him. He's also just started doing it today again after the stress of this weekend's accident and the trauma of the daily treatment. As I drove off today I saw him do it in the field. He is currently in pain and can't lay down with his injuries so I can understand it. Very interesting what happened with my friend though, he obviously got stressed about her being in his space and it seems that the collapsing just happens when he's stressed. |
West Sussex |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 11:00:08 AM
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I'm gutted - I think the ulcers are back. After 4 weeks on full dose of Gastogard, then another 3 weeks of quarter dose I was hoping we were getting to the end but he's been acting like they're back for a couple of days. I guess it's because he was so stressed out this weekend when his field mate were away for two days (Sat and Mon) to compete.
He's been started on Jackie's gastrosoothe plus which is supposed to help when they come off the GG but he's only had it for a few days so obviously not working yet.
Will have to phone the vet but as insurance company hasn't paid up yet it's a sticky situation. This is soul destroying. |
West Sussex |
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Leaky gut/gastric ulcers
