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honey
Platinum Member
 N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2009 : 11:58:37 PM
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just really wanting to highlight the problem with treating horses with steriods theres a high risk of laminitis as a side effect from the treatment. So if ever giving horses steriods cut there hard feed to a min and change to hay if possible. we are currently facing a dilema with our mare(tbxcob) due to laminitis which she originally got 8 years ago while on steriod treatment the vet never told us to cut her feed out. shes came back from loan lame Shes had xrays yesterday and her right foot is not good and rekons her pedal bone rotation is now unrepairable, shes lame at min on the right corner but he thinks enevitably she will just get worse and shes been retired from work at 10yo. corrective trimming won't be an option we would consider as last time she was in soo much pain it was heart breaking to see her like she was, so its a wait and see changing her enviroment to eliminate the risk of uneven or stoney ground so her shoes can come off and her feet to grow out(feet are neat)if she gets worse we will have her pts as we couldn't see her in the pain she went through three years ago.
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 01:39:16 AM
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Honey I so sympathise with you.
My closest friend rang me in floods of tears earlier as her little 12 yr old arab has just come down with another dreadful bout of laminitis  .
Strangely enough it was almost 3 years ago that she also had her first awful episode but with careful management and a lot of remedial shoeing she seemed to be ok until a few days ago.
The vet and farrier have looked at the latest x-rays and her off-fore pedal bone has rotated even further and they have warned her that she may have to face an awful decision. The farrier is coming at 4pm Monday to look her and then I guess she will have to take it from there.
It's such a hideous condition and many different causes of course, but I do feel for you at such a difficult time .
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 09:21:58 AM
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A vet told me my old mare had arthritis, so gave her a steroid injection - she actually had laminitis, so you can imagine the end result She got much, much worse in an hour or so and never did recover from that bout.
Since then I have only let a vet give one of mine steroids once, and then very carefully controlled and the vet was very aware of what I would do to her if the injection brought on laminitis! |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 10:16:43 AM
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Oh Honey how awful for your poor mare! I really hope she isn't as bad as initially thought and can make a recovery!
If you ever need to chat or want to ask questions, i've sadly had my fair amount of Laminitis experience, please feel free to PM me! Take care x |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 1:04:52 PM
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| Thankyou, its very upsetting, we were hoping it wouldn't be this news with her. Initially what the problem was 15 months after she had the bad bout of lami she went on loan so we had been corrective trimming her feet for that time, and had her sound though still foot sore after a shoeing for a few days. so she went on loan fully aware of it what to do ect but the persons black smith basically found that trimming her feet up proper caused lameness but found leaving the toe on kept her sound so he did just that, but over the 18months slowly undid all the corrective trimming we had done and allowed the whole structure of her foot to change shape to accomodate her pedal bone. yes it kept her sound but when she gave her up she found another loanee for her and assured they were knowledgable only round the corner and able to keep an eye ect. Had a visit and a chat about her lami and copd ect and kept close contact. well they got there blacksmith out to trim her feet not knowing, cut her toe off and lamed her, we think they caused a mild bout of laminitis causing further rotation and then they phoned our black smith up who sent someone down and they put rolled shoes on to support the toe but the damage had been done. So maybe if we let her foot grow back to the shape it was she will become sound enough to do little walking and go out in the field which we are hoping. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 2:13:10 PM
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Oh the poor thing! Have they said how thick her sole is? With mine, one had slight rotation (just a couple of degrees) but due to the fact his was caused by Cushings, he had very thin soles so was very close to being PTS. The other one had severe rotation (14 degrees) but lovely thick soles so didn't need too much, just de-rotating (filing back the toe) each time he was shod and both of their pedal bones have returned to normal thank goodness!
There is so much that can be done i.e. stewart clogs or imprint shoes! I really hope you find something to help your mare x |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 2:34:33 PM
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Pasha, sorry to hijack thread a bit Honey, but could I just ask about the rotational degree terminology? My friend's mare is 8 on one foot and 12 on the other, means absolutely nothing to either me or her ~ could you possibly elaborate if you have a moment?
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 3:29:29 PM
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Basically the pedal bone is supported by the laminae and when a horse is suffering an attack of laminitis, the laminae tears and stretches (sometimes completely dying away). This leaves the pedal bone with little or no support and it can rotate downwards; in very severe cases, breaking through the sole of the hoof.
When vets talk about the degree of rotation, they mean how far the pedal bone has rotated downward - they do this by taking a measurement from the x-ray and the degrees are the measurement between the hood wall and the pedal bone. In a normal foot, they are parrallel.
There is a really good diagram on this website which explains it better than I can:
http://www.imprintshoes.co.uk/laminitis/laminitis_the_condition_and_treatment.htm
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 8:04:08 PM
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I can only offer sympathy i'm afraid honey. I have a 3 (nearly 4) year old welsh mountain pony. I have had her since she was a yearling. She has been carefully managed due to her breed, never had cereals, never been overweight and always had her grazing restricted and never been on lush pasture. She had her first episode of laminitis as a 2 year old, and her second this summer (due to the farmer spraying pesticides in the field they were grazing in!). Her pulses go up and down with the slightest change. She is doing ok at the moment, even though we've just moved which was a trigger for her last time. Roger Hatch at trinity consultants has played a great part in getting her right this time (though she was still on 8 weeks box rest!).
It's a horrible, horrible condition. I hope you get your girl right]
xxx |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 12:25:21 AM
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| thankyou pasha shes got really thick soles and quick growing hard feet. Blacksmiths always commented on her thick soles and hated fiing them as her feet are soo hard. she did have rotation originally in both but her eft foot has completely returned to normal rotation side. On the x rays it showed a great degree of rotation and it was pointing downwards. when the vet first looked he thought it wasn't overly bad then he looked at it considering the shape of her foot ect and said is quiet bad, if the lip was taken off thats grew to the front of the hoof her pedal bone would be basically exposed. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:21:50 PM
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Thank you for the information Pasha!
Honey how is your mare doing? Hope all ok.
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:40:29 PM
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| thanks for asking jai shes not doing good im afraid. blacksmith is out tommorrow but basically the vets said its not just the rotation of the pedal bone but everything has shunken in the foot, and he binned the xrays as he really thought theres nothing the black smith can do, but we will still speak with him. shes still lame and even out for five in the paddock shes really bad hobbling, so its a chat with the blacksmith before anything is decided. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 12:05:00 AM
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Oh lord that's not good I am sorry.
My friend's mare is pretty bad too, she hasn't moved at all in pretty much over a month. The farrier said that if she were his he would have her put down which is pretty damming, but did say with time and money she may come right.
So depressing isn't it? Really hope that you have some good news soon.
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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numbbum
Silver Member
363 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 1:56:10 PM
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| I am praying hard for you (and all the others whose horses are suffering with this terrible condition) Laminitis stole my boy from me and I have never recovered. I was told that he would never be able to be ridden again, which was fine by me, but in the end he was just suffering too much. However, I am sure treatment is much better now than it was then and your experience will have a good outcome.xxxx |
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rafabreeze
Gold Member
757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 2:48:46 PM
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| Hi - I wasnt going to post anything about loosing my boy last month, but story is similar to numbbum, I will never forget Breeze (Brisingamen Ibn Kazmierek) he had laminitis, and lost the fight in November - its hard to even talk about it, tears are never far away - Georgina x |
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 3:25:18 PM
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| The story of our filly is too long and still too raw to disclose. However, even with both front pedal bones having a high degree of rotation we ditched our (allegedly eminent) vets and ended up with a vet who pulled out all the stops. A year ago, she was within two days of a heart-wrenching decision having to be made as she was in danger of losing her entire front hooves through the negligence of the (allegedly eminent) vets. Today, she has fully recovered. To see her charging around playing in the fresh snow with her buddies the other day, 100% sound, made me realise just how far she has come in a year. Even when she was at death's door, she never lost her spirit or her will to survive. Even the remedial farrier was astounded at her recovery, remarking on his final visit that no-one would ever know that she had ever had laminitis. I can truly sympathise with all of you that have gone through this nightmare. Honey, I hope that your mare is one of the lucky ones like our filly. |
http://www.performancearabians.com
http://performancearabians.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/PerformanceArabians
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numbbum
Silver Member
363 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 6:20:49 PM
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Just checked back and noticed this. How lovely to read pintoarabian's story of recovery! I wish so much I had NOT listened to my vets (another one who was supposed to be as good as it gets) advice and gone for a second opinion. Please do this for your horse. I know money is a factor, but once they are gone you can't bring them back. Pain relief is also much more advanced now. Let us know how you get on. xxx |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 6:55:29 PM
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| I echo numbbum & pintoarabian... my B mare was written off by one vet (acute lami due to toxic poisoning) and after a lot of time, huge effort from my farrier she made a good recovery and is now (3 years later) back in work and doing fine. |
www.spanglefish.com/kasanarhythmbeads/ |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 9:07:56 PM
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| Thanks everyone. The farrier was out today and he said the last farrier has cut her feet back far too much(assuming he meant the sole) He looked at her feet and said hes not surprised in the slightest that the xrays showed huge rotation of the pedal bone with the shape her feets been trimmed, he said even a non laminatic horse would show rotation with a foot like that. so he trimmed them up and her foot now looks normal and said he can't guarantee she will come sound, as he would need to see the xrays to make a better decision, but the shoeing she got today should solve alot of her problems and correct alot of her rotation. Her feet are back to normal to look at and shes not shown any signs of further lameness due to being shod today, so fingers crossed its not as bad as the vet thought. Its just good that we have such a good blacksmith. thankyou for all the encouragement, it was such a blow when the vet came back with his prognosis, but even if she comes back pasture sound, she will once again become a field ornament, she owes us nothing, shes gave us more than we ever imagined we never gave up before and she was alot worse. so we will keep going while shes on good heart and not in bad distress. |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 9:42:34 PM
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Really good to hear some positive news Honey.
Others stories are just so sad, I'm so very sorry to read them .
Jen
xx
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 10:20:28 PM
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| thankyou jai. it really is awful, cause you always have the thought did you do everything possible and could there have been hope of recovery. Then when you read other success stories you think just maybe if i left it a while longer maybe they would of become better. Theres nothing worse than seeing your horse in pain, and we have said if she ever got as bad as three years ago we wouldn't put her through it. It takes alot to say good byee, but sometimes its best and theres just no point having doubts as it won't make things easier, but think of the life they have had and that you were part of it. |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 08:52:50 AM
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| I would urge anyone with a laminitic horse (or indeed every single horse owner) to read the book Founder: Prevention and Cure by Jaime Jackson. It's a remarkable book and helped many thousands of suffering horses and helped prevent many thousands of others suffering in the first place. Unfortunately there is a great deal of misunderstanding of the disease and the process of 'rotation' of the pedal bone by vets and farriers, which results in wrong treatments being advised and horses being PTS needlessly. Even horses that suffer hoof slough can be saved and returned to ridden work - it takes a hugely dedicated owner and a horse willing to fight but it can be done, so before you follow what your vet says always get a second opinion and please do read the Founder book. |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 09:05:58 AM
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| So pleased for you... keeping fingers x'd for improvements! Its very scary as you are 'programmed' to trust the proffesionals,not question them... |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 09:15:59 AM
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So pleased that there is some hope Honey! Keeping my fingers crossed for you!
My Farrier has been brilliant, but always very cautious with trimming - he says that the foot tells him what to do and he won't touch the sole at all until it's ready! He has seen a few cases where the pedal bone has come through the sole of the hoof and they have gone on to make full recoveries and one of my friends was told to PTS her pony who's pedal bone dropped through the sole, but he was happy in himself and in no obvious distress, so she gave him a day at a time and 6 months later he was back out in the field - now back competing like it never happened!
I honestly believe you have to treat each case as an individual! Pasha was in the box from November to March, out for 2 weeks then back in again until June! BUT he never once looked sad or gave up! He told us he wanted to fight this so we did! If he ever would have shown distress at being in so long, we wouldn't have done it! He still loves his stable and can't wait to come in of an evening, so no harm done, although now he is nearly 23, not sure he could go through it again!
It is the hardest and most bravest decision you ever have to make, to end your best friends suffering and only you can make that for your horse! |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 11:40:57 AM
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| we faced this with her three years ago. we had one vet wanting to pts, so we wouldn't let her treat any of our horses, and our blacksmith was certain she would come right, so thats why we trust the farrier over the vet. Theres one vet we took a horse up for a vetting for someone and he told us at the time that he never puts a horse to sleep with laminitis but its about the management and feet trimming that is the key. We mentioned him the farrier we were using and he told us that hes very good and he would be able to sort her and he was right. After the farriers positiveness were determined now to get her back in ridden work even if its just to plod her about on to give her somit to do. we have the choice of breeding a foal but we have decided against it. we don't need anymore horses we have a daughter each from her and we don't breed to sell. |
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xsara
Gold Member
822 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2010 : 6:55:44 PM
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| Thanks for all your support and stories i have only just found this post lol. Honey is very lame today after yesterdays trimming. I have told helen to have a look at her when she is up. Just one question for you is about exercise, when she had it three years ago vet told us once she was able to get around a bit better to turn her out as walking would increase blood flow and help her. But i read that they should be box rested as as exercise causes even more damage to the foot. Should i be box resting her completely or turning her out in the paddock for a walk. i also found she was lamer on uneven soft surfaces and seemed alot sounder on hard surfaces which i thought was odd but guessed it could be sole sensitivity with the paddock as it is small stones could be the reason and brusing her feet. lol at first i didnt want to believe it was her foot as she was also very sore in her shoulder, neck poll and her pelvis was dropped and rotated and her knees were locked lol so had phsio and chiro at her and then xrays on chiro's advice as he thought lameness was too bad for what he found. .which showed the rotation, but i would trot her up and she would trot up sound up level passage way, and then tack her up take and took her to paddock and hobbled lol but over time has shown it is definitely that foot and she was hobbling up the passage way tonight. So fingers crossed some rest and pain relief and time to adjust it will improve. Thanks again and agree it is a very horrible debilitating disease and not one i would wish on any body. |
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steriods and laminitis
