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Arachnid
Platinum Member
 England
1872 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 2:40:03 PM
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I had a hairy moment this morning when I got off because there was a long strip of plastic attached to a hedge and blowing right across our path. Really glad I did get off as Spider panicked - even being led past it and galloped home (luckily only 100 yards and on a track ) by himself.
This has rather highlighted quite how lazy I have been on the plastic training front. Any tips you NH gurus? So far, walked back to yard and led him back to the offending spot until he could be led quietly past. Had to remove plastic though, so he was being led quietly past where he remembered that it used to be.
Have tied nasty piece of plastic to bars of stable but might take it down if he really hates it.
I sort of feel this is all my fault. I know he is scared of plastic but the few times I've bothered trying to get him used to it seem to have no effect whatsoever and in time I stop doing it. I think this means horse has trained me nicely (she's a bit slow this owner, but eventually she learns with a bit of perseverance)
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 5:16:23 PM
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| I desensitise mine with plastic bags on a broom handle - I start off with the plastic tightly attached then gradually loosen it until I have a BIG SCARY bag on a stick - none of mine bat an eyelid now when we encounter scary bags, haylage wrappers etc. |
www.spanglefish.com/kasanarhythmbeads/ |
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flosskins
Silver Member
345 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 5:17:04 PM
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| i have always tied plastib bags around the field with my youngsters, and once they take no notice of them at all then move some to the stable so its even closer. once they take no notice of them then get them used to you rustling them closer and closer until they take no notice at all. long process but it does work. |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 6:16:50 PM
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I would not tie it around the stable yet.Flosskins and moatside are on the right track but let his stable be his sanctuary for now. I too use the stick and bag method but they have to accept the stick first. This system works with anything from tack to clipping.
You need a long lead rope, keep it loose so that he does not feel trapped. Rub his neck and wither with the stick. When he accepts this reward him by taking the stick away (putting it down). He might not let you touch him at first so just wave it gently until he accepts it then take it away. It works because they are quick enough to realise that when they settle down the nasty thing goes away.
If you have not done this before try to watch a dvd or tv programme. You can pm me for more if you like. Good luck |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
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mazey
Gold Member
England
501 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 8:13:19 PM
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| Plastic bags and sticks for me too. Once they get used to having it rubbed all over (advance and retreat as described above) I tie my string onto the stick and plastic bag onto the end of the string. Then walk around with it waving in front of me, side to side etc The wind will catch the plastic on the end of the string and so it is a bit more scary than having the bag on the end of the stick. Eventually you can wave it closer and closer to the horse and eventually wave it above andd around his head. All this takes time, though, so it is a gradual process and is not as traumatic as it sounds on paper. I also use umbrellas to de-sensitise mine. |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 8:34:08 PM
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| I will carry a bag around, then I usually end up with several nosy Arabs helping me carry it (empty of course). That will progress to a bag on a stick, then a bag on the ground, their back, underneath them etc. I try not to make an issue of it, eventually they do get used to all sorts of plastic. |
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clio
Gold Member
Wales
614 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 8:53:23 PM
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| Same as all the above and i have always taken there apples down in a plastic bag, suprising how quickly they take no notice of a bag when good things come out of them. |
   
*~* Crossleys RainDancer *~* *~* Ora El Masra*~* *~*Diesel*~*
www.riddenarabgroupwales.co.uk |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 9:29:35 PM
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| I am loving this website forum. The love and acceptence is incredible. I tried to help people with dog problems on another forum and got shot down in flames. What I get here is a friendly bunch of like minded sensible people. I feel able to help here without fear of aggression. |
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misterei
Silver Member
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 10:23:20 PM
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If you have the misfortune to have to poo pick, take a nice empty feed bag to fill with poo, you can bring it back in a wheel barrow if you have to, and you may have to. If it smells of feed, just put one poo in it (one complete one, not just a silly little nuggat), to stop it blowing away and walk away to another part of the field. At first ours began by staying away from it, but they are curious like cats. Once one goes up to it and it mostly smells of feed and slighty of something not so pleasant, they soon start to get accustomed to big bags. On windy days the bags flap a bit and make some noise, but then when you go out they don't really care any more.
And horses like to smell poos as they are territory markers, and they don't find it offensive.
And I use plastic strips on the show whip when they are young, touch them all over very gently and they then never care. I also hang my jacket on the posts in teh school or field so they can see it and not worry if it blows in the wind, which helps them when you take them to shows. I need a big sheet with lots of writing on it, cos at some show grounds they still shy when they see/hear a sheet flapping in the wind.
At the weekend the farm hired help was removing thistles from one of our fields and sticking them in a plastic bag, Mazie was going up to the bag, putting her head inside and pulling them out to eat. I thought that was funny.
I also got mine used to tractors by standing next to the fence watching it, and waiting for them to come and stand beside me, before they ran off when it came around the next time. |
Here they are
Emira......Mazie...Fharida.....Shahi......Mazie.....Saffee..Malika...Emira
More at www.purespiritarabians.com |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 8:24:15 PM
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I find that no matter how hard I work at it the horse becomes quite desensitised to 'our' plastic but 'stranger' plastic is still dangerous! I used to tie nasty flappy bags all around the place, and put a few pony nuts or treats in each bag. We'd then go for a walk in-hand on a nice windy day and Amelia would have to poke her nose into each bag to get the treat. She cottoned on very quick and happily nosed into the most fearsomely flappy bags. One day when we were picking weeds she actually grabbed the bag we were using and chased after one of the other horses with it (who was nervous of the bag even when it wasn't being carried about by a naughty little horse).
But we could be out later and an Unknown Bag might flap and oh dear! Definitely a monster. Same with motorbike training - the 'bike we practised with could literally zoom out from a hiding place and rev all around her and she ignored it completely - it could even pretend to ram her and she'd just flick a disdainful ear... but let a stranger's bike even start up around the corner and we'd up the nearest tree.
Puddles are the same. Anything scary is, it seems.
On the other hand, if we are somewhere totally new and unknown it seems that the devil himself could pop out of the ground, covered in bags and motorbikes, and she wouldn't turn a hair. I think perhaps she feels that on unknown territory 'anything' could happen - and probably does (these foreigners, you know) - but on home ground unexpected bags etc are a problem: That Wasn't There Yesterday So I'm Not Going Near It.
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 Said the little eohippus, "I´m going to be a HORSE"  |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 08:12:07 AM
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Thank you for all of your input. Grey Girl, Amelia is Spider's soul mate. Thats exactly how he feels about new things in old places. I will go back to Tescos bags with carrots in them as a starting point. He isnt terribly greedy so food is not a big motivator like it is with some horses.
He was either too scared of the plastic bag on the stable or my yard owner (who is a neat-freak) thought it spoiled the view, in any case he didnt spend the night with it!
Why tie the bag to the stick? Is it so you can get out of the way? (Spider has taken some time to get used to sticks so dont want him going backwards on that one by making them scary again)
Quarabian - ahh thats nice. I cant believe anyone was mean to you! |
West Sussex |
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 11:04:14 AM
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| Like grey girl i also put treats in plasic carrier bags so the horses associate them with nice things, unfortunately it will not de-sensitise them to plastic bags flapping when out and about from home! just as a bird suddenly flying out of a hedge in front of them would startle a horse. Even so i let my foals see bags, umbrella`s, and play with hosepipes as it all helps in the long run. Lets hope with most people now using their own shopping bags plastic ones will soon be a thing of the past!! |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 11:52:54 AM
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Hi,
In Parelli, Pat would say that it is not about the plastic. It took me a while to actually agree with this as I was so set in my mind that it HAD to be about the plastic because that is what the horse is scared of but now I know different.....
In my opinion  you can desensitise as much as you can but, like Grey Girl says, the fear can still present itself in a new environment. This is where the saying comes in. It's not about the plastic, it's about the relationship/trust between you and your horse. The fact that Spider thought it was safer to gallop back home than stay with you speaks volumes. (please do not take this the wrong way...)
On that basis, I would be more inclined to work on groundwork exercises/games where you show Spider that being with you is safe and fun.
There is a very good book called "101 Horsemanship exercises" by Rio Barrett.
The back cover says:-
The perfect guide to improving your horse's confidence, understanding, concentration, suppleness and obedience both on the ground and from the saddle, based on how horses think and respond to training.
Learn both theory and practical skills - from the simplets fundamentals that everyone around horses should know, to the refined techniques of the expert horseman, providing a clear road map, for the journey towars the Art of Horsemanship.
The book has clear diagrams and easy to follow instructions.
It even has a chapter on desensitising 
Good luck 
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 12:55:41 PM
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I aggree with gee gee, it is not about the plastic, but working with the stick and the plastic will help to build his trust with you. I am also aware that this is new to you so it would be helpful to 'see it done' by an expert first. Once you gain confidence with this method you would be surprised how quickly a horse 'gets it' (understands)
On the other hand I also aggree that he might show fear again in a different place or with different types of plastic. The secret is to keep offering scary things in a controlled way. He might not lose his fear completely, but he will start to trust your judgement in these situations and see you as the safe place to be. He will probably react less dramatically too. Another important point is to do the work on both sides. If he accepts the bag when he can see it through his left eye he will still see it as a scary object when viewed through his left eye. I hope this is not more confusing than helpful, wish I could demonstrate.
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mazey
Gold Member
England
501 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 1:10:24 PM
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Geegee agree with you about the relationship - today I was leading my two down the track to their field. The farmers had left a 30ft long piece of black silage plastic in the hedge which was catching in the wind and looked like a big scary snake. My youngster immediately balked , eyes on stalks, wouldn't be persuaded to go past. My older mare, who I've done loads on NH stuff with and usually trusts me about scarey things, ignored me and listened to the youngster, who is dominant over her. Consequently she decided if he thought it was scarey it must be - on her own she would have stopped and would have looked to me for reassurance , but she followed herd instinct and copied her equine leader. So you could say that her relationship with me is not as solid as her relationship with her equine mate if he is figured into the equation, but on her own she will totally look to me for leadership- not sure how to get round that one.
I've heard of that book, is it available in the UK? |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 3:51:19 PM
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Hi Mazey, yes you can get the book in the UK....usual places like amazon etc..
As for your mare looking to her equine leader for assurance, when push comes to shove, I guess humans can never really take the place of their own kind.
I do think alot of it is about energy levels, though. If I am leading two together, my mare will feed off of my pony (who is a real wuss) I have to be really conscious of my energy levels, keeping them down and I do alot of sighing/yawning. (must look quite strange to non NH people  )
On the other hand, depending on the situation, I have had to match my mares energy in order for her to snap out of it. A bit like the advert where the mother and child is in the Supermarket and child has a tantrum. Mother decides to also have a tantrum on the floor and child then stops and looks at mother wondering what on earth is wrong with her. Situation is diffused and no hard feelings
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 5:22:03 PM
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To help with the kind of scenario you've described I would tie flappy plastic at one end of an arena/training area & lunge him at what ever distance he feels is 'safe' from the offending plastic.
As he calms you can gradually move so you're lunging closer to the plastic. Because he'll be moving his feet a lot he'll be 'braver' at getting close, knowing that he can easily move away.
As he gets braver slow the lunging until he can walk past, & then eventually stop alongside the plastic. |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 7:59:20 PM
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I think the big problem with plastic is that it flaps and does little creepy movements when the wind gets it. Looks EXACTLY like something is alive and possibly hunting equines. Plus it has quite a nasty and unnatural sound.
I was once having a lesson on my old mare and we had stopped to discuss things with the instructor. There was a large tarpaulin lurking in the hedge covering something and after a bit my mare started staring more and more and getting tense. I took a look and the damn thing was sidling about, apparently extending an 'arm' towards us. I didn't blame her one bit - it looked like it was alive and trying to creep up on us and have us for dinner. Once I'd seen it too and indicated it was safe and we carried on working she was fine about it.
You're never going to get a horse to be spook-free unless it's brain dead.
I lunge Amelia near a group of plastic wrapped haylage. 99% of the time she's fine with it, but occasionally the wind catches a loose end and that's it, all concentration gone and she's keeping a careful eye on it in case it Pounces. |
Said the little eohippus, "I´m going to be a HORSE" |
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 10:49:50 AM
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This is really interesting, I think I might ask for that book for Christmas
I had a real breakthrough moment with my boy a few weeks ago. I was having some work done in the field and just the other side of their electic fence there was a dumper truck waiting with engine roaring and a roll of black membrane on board flapping crazily in the wind. I needed to get the horses in and lead them past all of this horror to their stables. I decided to catch my boy who was doing a very good impression of a horse about to bolt off in terror, cantering a 10metre circle and rearing. To my surprise he was caught calmly (me on tip toes just to reach his head was so high) and walked sensibly with me towards the monster and into the yard. I was so proud of him. My mare rushed up the inside of us still loose and he didn't panic or misbehave. This was such a huge deal for me because when I first had him he was so nervous it was hard to believe and there were times I thought we'd never bond like I had with my other horses.
It's good to know that there are others out there struggling with the same issues. My boy has improved such a lot but we still have work to do |
Heléna
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Edited by - Eeyore on 06 Nov 2009 10:51:31 AM |
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misterei
Silver Member
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 09:24:10 AM
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Just adding a picture of the girls playing with the poo bags yesterday
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Here they are
Emira......Mazie...Fharida.....Shahi......Mazie.....Saffee..Malika...Emira
More at www.purespiritarabians.com |
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marionpack
Gold Member
England
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 1:18:45 PM
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| With my youngster (when she was a yearling) I used to take her feed in a plastic bag and gradually tip it into her feed bowl in front of her, in the end I used to shake the bag really hard to get the food out, in the end it was a fight as to who would get the food out first, me or her, but she doesn't seem worry about plastic bags now as she always thinks there are nice things in there |
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Renee
Gold Member
539 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 9:38:58 PM
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Hi all,
Our solution is to always put carrots and other treats in a plastic bag, give it plenty of rustling, now they all whinny/whicker when they see/hear a plastic bag (even Khylie who used to climb the walls at the sight of plastic). I will let them eat out of it (supervised) as well. I take on board the situational thing, our solution there is to prepare 'this week's little challenge' - it might be anything from a big piece of tarpaulin across the path, to cars parked close together on the drive that they need to go between, or whatever. Just something different every week or so, mix it up and do something different even if it's just changing who's in front, or leading from the other side, etc. Little challenges, especially targeted towards our youngster. Works really well, he's pretty much chilled about everything!
Cheers,
Renee |
      
Jeago (Ludomino x Bahia) 1973-2007 & Khylie* (Nazdrowie x Kaminah) 1990-2010 ~ Fouad el Khyl (Lothar el Nyhl x Khylie) 2005- |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 3:11:11 PM
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Hi Arachnid
I saw Clinton Anderson today on rural tv I am sure it is on again at 6pm and midnight. Try to catch it as it explains the principals very well and also you can see it working. The horse he is demonstrating with was very spooky at the start of the series. Not everyone gets on with this chap, but he has a system that works. Most of it is compatible with parelli and Monty Roberts.
Also, very important revision. He starts off by walking away from the horse with the scarey object. I forgot to say that in earlier posts.
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2009 : 10:26:18 AM
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I think a lot has to do with the horse's temperament and their past experiences. Am I correct in thinking that Spider didn't have the best life before you got him? I had a colt who was literally scared of nothing, never saw him spook. However, that is unusual and in the wild he would probably have ended up as "dinner"! He came from a line with very kind, calm temperaments. Horses are prey animals so they are programmed to be spooky; that way someone else gets eaten!
I think most horses will spook at strange objects. On a ride once a friend couldn't get her gelding past a certain place. There had been a bin there for months and that day the bin was gone. my horse walked happily past, not sure if he even noticed the bin had gone, and her gelding followed with a lot of snorting and blowing. Nothing else had changed apart from the absence of the bin.
"The fact that Spider thought it was safer to gallop back home than stay with you speaks volumes. (please do not take this the wrong way...)".
I think that is a very harsh statement and not one I would agree with. To many horses their stable is a comfort zone. my horses all love their stables as they are fed there and they have a dry, warm bed and ad lib hay. On the odd occasion that they have to be in for any reason most of them are quite happy to be in on their own. My 3 year old colt stayed in yesterday on his own as most of the day the weather was atrocious and he doesn't like being out in puring rain and gales he just stands in his shelter so I broke my rule and left him in. Normally they go out during tha day all weathers and in at night.
Barbara
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2009 : 11:41:06 AM
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"The fact that Spider thought it was safer to gallop back home than stay with you speaks volumes. (please do not take this the wrong way...)".
I think that is a very harsh statement and not one I would agree with.
Thank you Barbara.
He doesnt bolt for home if he loses me on the Downs (he doesnt like being by himself - don t think this is because of our glorious relationship!) but in this instance he could SEE home.
I like the story about your friend's gelding and the absent bin. Spider would react just the same.
Spider has led a charmed life as far as I know, so cant
blame this on anyone else. He does have a super-fizzy temprament though. Not daft but really reactive.
We are off to dressage this afternoon as I reckon its the only dry place I can ride... |
West Sussex |
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Plastic desensitising
