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SueB
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 12:39:40 PM
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I understand from looking at the new 2009 Blue Book on the ECAHO site, that our C Shows have to have two DC's (we know that), but one of them has to be a vet?
If this is enforced I can see an end to most of our C shows in this country. I know that our local Agricultural Shows, Devon County and Bath & West are sitting back wondering if it is worth continuing with Arab Classes full stop.
The high costs to bring in judges and the DC's is crippling them. The lower entries do not cover these basic costs.
I wonder if any of you out there who like to support these two Ag shows would along with me write to the Show sec and ask if they would perhaps declassify both shows to non C status but still continue as just affiliated Arab shows? They will most likely get the same or even more entries to them if they are not C status.
It would be a shame to lose two of our best Ag shows so close to each other.
Declassification seems to me the best solution while times are hard, what do others think?
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 1:45:50 PM
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Agree all the way Sue.......declassification is the way to go. Really don`t think Exhibitors would care a toss about `C` show status
If declassifying brought about cheaper running costs, and increased entries, then hopefully we shall not be losing long established Shows
which this silly ruling, appears to be bringing about!!!
`C` show status does not guarantee a better price for winning show stock.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 2:57:17 PM
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It is certainly something to be considered but the running costs would not necessarily be much cheaper and for the purebred people who wish to qualify for Towerlands and Title shows would mean they would not enter thus entries will fall rather than increase.
I am pretty sure that most AGricultural shows have a vet on hand who would maybe be prepared to assist.
HoCon this year actually had 3 DC's one of whom is a vet and I have to say he was brilliant and we have asked him for next year
The groups and show secretaries are looking to have a get together to try to formulate a proposal to Ecaho that this rule be amended if only for the UK but I don't hold much hope of success. One thought is that we be allowed to use final year veterinary students which would give them experience and incur less cost for the show
ECAHO needs to realise that the majority of shows in the UK are run by volunteers with no sponsorship thus we have to cover all costs out of the entry fees.
Yvonne |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 3:22:30 PM
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How would one qualify for UKIAHS without C class shows? When Kharidian was a youngster I only showed at a local show (Affiliated) and one or two C class shows per year (HOCON and SE Regional group), both for education and to qualify for UKIAHS - which he did, as a three year old, although I wasn't sure if I would ever take him ....however we went in 2008 and achieved a bronze (not bad for a 15 year old "unfashionable" 92.9% Crabbet gelding shown by myself)
I intend to buy a foal next year and show as a youngster - given the costs involved I would rather show at a few high level shows where a placing means something than non-affiliated/non-C class shows.
Reading the second paragraph back makes me sound like an awful snob but that is just my opinion; personally I think the shows would attract fewer exhibitors like myself if the C status were removed so, most unusually, I have to disagree with BabsR.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 4:24:32 PM
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I am interested in trying to save Arab Classes at both our Agricultural shows, by dropping the C status (which is a huge shame) might be the only way to save some classes at these two shows.
Nothing is definite just rumblings about the ever increasing costs. I wanted to show that local breeders are interested, do want to support these shows and by contacting them we might just save our classes.
Each year the entries have dropped, this year it was bad but it seems bad everywhere, if we can't physically take a horse to the show, showing interest by communication is just one way of reassuring these shows that we feel things will get better?
Devon County dropped the Anglo and Part bred in-hand classes a couple of years ago, there was complete uproar locally, which included myself and many others sending letters!! now re-instated those classes are bigger and better.
When Devon County first got it's C status the classes were increased and were filled with high quality arabs from all over the country. This is ideal, yes please we want this!! but sadly entries have decreased so much we are back to the numbers pre C status.
I believe Judy Stafford-Charles and Val Cridge came up with the introduction of C Status to Devon County, they saved the Arab Classes from being dropped back then.
My idea of declassification might save money and might save our arab classes this time. |
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Centaur
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 4:45:50 PM
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I would take care with the use of final year veterinary students. I have had many final year students to "see practice" with us over the years and feel that very few of them would have the depth of experience of horse welfare/handling/behaviour that the role of DC requires. It is not a matter of a clinical assessment - which they are generally very good at - the role surely involves a mature, reasoned stance carried through with diplomacy & confidence. I'm afraid that they could easily be intimidated by some professionals.
The veterinary schools are doing a much better job at training "client handling" but there is no substitute for experience!!
I do applaud the move to have a professional who is outside the show world.
Angela |
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Ziadomira
Platinum Member
England
1635 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:23:40 PM
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I have been querying this for some time with ECAHO. I am not sure they know exactly what they have done.
I asked how a non ECAHO DC could become an ECAHO list DC bearing in mind that few shows having to get an ECAHO DC and a vet will go to the expense of getting a scond DC from the non ECAHO group. They have almost made them redundant.
Barbara Pfistner suggested I contact Finn Guinness and now that the Wessex C Show is over I will do this and ask him if there would be any advantage if getting the AHS to lobby ECAHO on the behalf of National C Shows to get this ruling waived for this type of show. I am not sure it would succeed for the C International Shows.
Zia |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:41:33 PM
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| We went to a non classified agricultural show with affiliated arab classes last year, the lack of C status did not put us off, we had a fab day out, a red rosette and a few quid to put back into the kitty, thats what i call well worth it. |
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azeer
Silver Member
373 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 10:04:38 PM
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| This topic was discussed at the AHS Council Meeting yesterday, it was felt that the UK is different to the rest of Europe and we hold more C shows than the rest of Europe! It was suggested that representation on 2 or 3 areas in the blue book should be made to Ecaho. Ziadomira it would be best to speak to Finn who will update you, I am sure, once the minutes are drafted. |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 08:04:03 AM
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A couple of years ago, I applied to ECAHO to become a DC. I was told that to have approval, I would have to go on a course AND shadow an approved DC at a show. At the time, there were only 2 ECAHO approved DC's in the UK??!!
And I know a vet in this part of the world who is an approved DC. He is a good vet but he doesn't have a clue about shows, nor could he care less. And anyway, how many vets would be prepared to go through these procedures?
It seems that ECAHO hasn't taken on board what is happening in England so representation to them is a step in the right direction.
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Micky
Silver Member
308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 09:07:52 AM
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| This may be a silly question, but how much does it cost the society to be a member of Ecaho? |
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Debbie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1138 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 12:45:45 PM
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Jane, There was a course just this month for DC's to upgrade to ECAHO. They were funding the hotel but you had to pay the flights and the course fee of £200+ once you had the approval of your society.
This will greatly limit the quantity of DC's who will be able to officiate if one has to be a vet and the other an ECAHO DC as according to my 2008 DC list there are only 24 in the UK and only 10 of those are ECAHO DC's! |
Debbie
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 3:01:55 PM
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Thanks Debbie.
There aren't that many DC's to go round, eh? And wow, expensive to go on the course plus the flights! |
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Debbie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1138 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 3:44:00 PM
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Interestly Jane, some secretaries find it difficult to secure DC's for their show for one reason or another. I have 3 DC appointments this year and travelled over 200 miles to DC at one of them. So as there are so few of us anyway, this new ruling will cause havoc (me thinks!)
And in fact I had forgotten but one of the ECAHO DC's I counted in my last post has already resigned this year making my tally 9! |
Debbie
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Sadika
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3520 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 4:17:33 PM
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| We are quite lucky in the N/W as our DCs are fairly local. ECAHO seem to dream up rules without consulting those who will have to attempt to implement them ... ECAHO want Gold, Silver, Bronze medal winners now - preferred to Champion/Reserve/Reserve Reserve ... not sure how many show secs have picked up on that one! |
Marilyn
     
www.sweetphotography.com ** Now available online Our 2016 Galleries ** |
Edited by - Sadika on 27 Jun 2009 4:18:44 PM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 09:27:07 AM
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I went to a course for preliminary introduction to being a DC, probably over 10 years ago, it was a very interesting day, but as far as I know, non of us who attended were invited to progress to another, and yet we were not 'tested' on anything we had learned that day.
I believe for far too long into the 21st century we have 19th century attitudes to keeping an exclusive club, similar to the very wasteful drop out rate of people who get fed up of the hoops to be jumped through to become a judge.
With so few DC's and no high profile efforts being made to encourage more of us to do it, the ECAHO ruling if we cannot get it amended, I can for see as SueB has said the demise of our "C" shows.
I am not sure that de-classifying some shows though is the answer. When we at the north wales group enquired about "C" status some years back we had hoops to jump through, minimum entries to be achieved etc.
if some current "C" shows are no longer attaining the numbers then they should be de-classified anyway? otherwise "C" shows can become a mockery, a handful of entries where everyone comes away with a rosette.
having watched a few live stream European shows, was surprised at HOW FEW entries there were.
If we get less qualifiers for Towerlands, will it to get less entries and be a joke?
There is no easy answer to any of this especially in todays economic climate, but the one thing i think we all have to be agreed upon is NOT having to have a vet as a DC. If a show has a vet "on call" that should be enough to satisfy any requirement, as and when necessary after the DC's have IN THEIR WIDER EXPERIENCE thought it appropriate to call in a second opinion. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 09:29:25 AM
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forgot to add, even if a "C" show is de-classified, entry fees will probably not drop to reflect the lower running costs.
and even if they were, the OTHER costs of showing, namely the cost of travel, could be the major factor limiting entries and is outside the ability of a shows committee to rectify. |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 3:30:26 PM
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| But if they are declassified then does that not mean prize money can be offered (maybe i am wrong) that would see more people attending i would have thought. |
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lisa b
Gold Member
795 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 7:43:26 PM
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| i do think that alot of us.."amateurs" are put off going to devon /bth etc since the c show status as we can never get passed the so called "professionals"... so perhaps our dwindling enteries are our own faults??? ..just a thought!!! |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:00:29 PM
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| Our geographically closest affiliated shows were both "C" shows, so we went regardless, and did OK for rank amateurs. Our 3 year old colt got internationally qualified first time out, shown by my 17 year old son who was a complete novice. We were above a class winner from the national show, so if you don't enter you will never know how well you COULD have done. |
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lisa b
Gold Member
795 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:33:38 PM
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| i understand that pat,and in past years we have done just that... but in the last 5-10 years its changed so much.. face judging or if you have a certain hair colour or your horse is by a certain "in" stallion gets to us all in the end... |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 09:10:50 AM
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Its a good thing now that so many of the 'bigger' shows are doing amateur classes alongside the main classes. it actually gives the true amateur two bites of the cherry, mainstream and against their peers.
larger shows that don't take note it is becoming popular. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 1:46:57 PM
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Agree Pat.....Amateur home produced classes are getting ever more popular and Show Organisers need to take note.
Our own BNFOY show has ever increasing entries in our eight AHP foal classes. The classes offer opportunity to exhibitors new to showing (our future Breeders) a chance to compete on a level playing field. Such classes also mean that amateurs do not have to compete against the professionals, which is an incentive for the novice exhibitor, and a good learning curve.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 09:37:45 AM
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You have raised a very big subject Sue in that the structure of ECAHO and its grading of shows for qualification is now a sham.
Only the winner can now qualify
For what?
A european show where we can predict the winner already?
The effect is we are all chasing rainbows
Much better to have our own UK structure and lots of local and regional shows
We have enough judges /showgrounds /handlers /riders /Horses to be independant of this marketing exercise which benefits a handful of people .
Many words have been expressed on cruelty and stress in the ring so it is understanable that a dc /vet should be in the collecting ring ,but I feel the answer may be to have a referee to liase with clients /stewards /dc's and organisers .
Quick,effective and fair .
The main thing is to look frward to how we can improve things and create a market.
One ingredient in the mix is very important .
Handlers/trainers have to make a living and it is becoming more difficult to do so with the low entries .
A more level playing field would generate a full days pay for our people . |
    
blue moon |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2009 : 09:55:48 AM
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There is also a clear distinction between Ridden and In-Hand
C shows make no difference to the Ridden classes which come under the AHS .
We should also focus on seperate Ridden shows and publications . |
blue moon |
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Demise of our C Shows?
