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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:15:26 PM
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| hear hear I would do exactly the same too because that is what would be right for me too. |
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 7:43:30 PM
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I think Gerri has done a much better job of summing up than I have,  thank you Gerri   |
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brychens mum
Bronze Member
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 9:38:19 PM
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I have read most of this thread with great saddness. Did anyone actually go to the sale in the end? I have a much cherished older pony (19). I sincerely hope that when it comes to the end of his days he can go in peace and dignity at home. However I cant rush to condemn others who may be forced to make different choices, either through a financial calamity or because (however misguidely) breeding horses is a business for them.
I really wonder how many of the bigger non hobby breeders in any breed or type of horse have any idea where all the not quite so good stock goes?
With regards to those who have the luxury to say 'I would PTS rather than sell' I think thats great and to be appluiaded, but please dont forget that some people may have absolutly no choice and a dire need for the odd £300+ from the sale of what might actually be a beloved horse. If you have no job,no money and a family to feed you might a, need the money and b, not be able to afford to PTS.
I hope hope hope I am never in the position to be forced to sell my old boy, but as a sole wage earner with a 4 1/2 year old son I am having serious second thoughts about getting a young horse precisly as I dont want to be forced to face selling one or both horses to make ends meet. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 9:48:53 PM
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Agree Zan.....never, not ever, will any of my beloved horses ever go to a sale. If I was ever unfortunate enough to fall upon hard times and could no longer feed my Horses and help was not forthcoming, then I would PTS.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 10:23:07 PM
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Without wishing to put the cat amongst the pigeons once again, I just wonder if saying that you would PTS a horse because you could no longer keep it is an act of care or an act of almost selfishness? Just because you cannot afford to keep a horse does not mean that horse could not be sold and have a happy and fulfilling life with someone else. Whether that person bought them at a sale should not be a bar to future love and care. Many people on AL have bought horses from sales as have people I know and these horses have enjoyed life with their new owners, bcoming as attached to those people as they were to their orginal owners.
Just a few weeks ago there was outrage on here when it was discussed about the larger studs (some here some abroad) culling their slightly 'imperfect' foals.Most of whom could grow up to be happy hackers if not World Champions. Yet many people would do the same to their own beloved horse just to avoid selling it on. Obv in this situation I am not refering to golden oldies but many older horses enjoy an active life well into their 20s.
Whilst I love my horse and know she is attached to me, I also realise that after a few months in another home she would forget me and attach herself to her new people. Are we sometimes guilty of projecting what we feel for our horses onto how they feel for us? Does this magnify it and make it seem more than it really is, less transient?
There are of course many pitfalls when selling horses on, but the majority of people reading this will have bought, not bred their horse, are they a good home? Almost undoubtly, yes, and there are others out there.
I am not wishing to offend anybody, just to play devils advocate a bit and get people to really think about situations. |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 10:31:57 PM
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Never ever will my horses end at a sale. How many of you have ever been to one?? We went to several in the States and at home here in Holland,they are more like fairs/market, not sales. But that's even worse, horses and ponies tied to a long rope all together waiting to be sold on. A lot of them end at the butchers. One day i bought one (Arabian) from the market and sold her on to a forever home, they still have her and this was years ago.
Soon we will be getting back one of my first bred foals from the days we were still breeding the odd foal, I get her back for free after i told them that ponies and horses, she is 20, should not be dragged around on the net to be sold, so I get her back. I already found a place for her to live her days.
I do have some regrets about ponies and Arabians I did not buy, simply because I did not have enough money at the time. When we lived in Phoenix we used to go to the rawhide sale and the most gorgeous Arabians were going through the ring, I never bought one there, but we did buy Carry, my husbands mare. She was from a lady who had to sell due to paying her hospital bills, she had breast cancer. Carry is still with us, she was three when we bought her and she is 22 now, we let her fly over from the States, that was more expensive then what we payed for her.
So if people want to be helped or need help I will be there for them. And no I did not go to the sale, simply because of the fact that I live in Holland. if anybody would have gone for me I would have come up with the cash.
Please note i am not rich, but for those horses i am more then willing to take from my savings account. I am saving to buy a Bahraini Arabian, my greatest dream to fulfil, so not easy to cut in that money, but I WILL DO IT.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 10:41:11 PM
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Jamana, you are right about that, but when Lila was in the UK to be bred, she stayed for half a year in 2007 when she was 18, it took her more then a year to come over it again. She is so attached to me I could never sell her, I think she would die from being homesick. We bought four of our horses and bred three of them, all bought from private homes. I would buy from a sale or market, although I prefer to breed from my own mares and keep the foal. That way I know what I get.
But anyway the lady who send these mares to the sale was not in need she did it because she needed space for winter and sold the ones that were less valuable.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 11:03:01 PM
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| Originally posted by Jamana
Without wishing to put the cat amongst the pigeons once again, I just wonder if saying that you would PTS a horse because you could no longer keep it is an act of care or an act of almost selfishness? .................................................
I am not wishing to offend anybody, just to play devils advocate a bit and get people to really think about situations.
This sounds to me as if you are trying to put the cat among the pigeons
No one here has said they would kill their horses rather than see them go to a new wonderful home, which could, indeed, be seen as selfish by some, until you think how difficult it would be to find homes that were 110%
I , and others, have said that I would pts only after I had tried everything else to personally see my horses were going to be okay. That would, of course, include personally finding them another home, but only if I was 110% happy with it. Highly unlikely. Sending them off to auction to play Russian roulette with the meat man and the very slight possibility of a good home would to me be abdicating responsibility for their future well being, and I would never do that.
Believe me, I have thought about this situation very deeply indeed, so I don't need a devil's advocate. I have also thought about what would happen if I die--my horses and other animals are provided for in my will, and have been since I was in my early 30s. |
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Edited by - Zan on 28 Jun 2009 7:50:34 PM |
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brychens mum
Bronze Member
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 11:51:22 PM
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I think one of the big problems is that PTS has a price attached of some £100s , unless of course you are near hunt kennels. I do know of one well know sire in the same area Babs is from (NOT one of hers I hasten to add) whose owners took him to the abatoir themselves. So they I assume got money for the carcass but knew exactly what had happend to him. My thoughts for my old boy would by PTS if I have the funds, otherwise I would take him to slaughter myself. Horrible to think such thoughts but now he is ageing I think I owe it to him to plan in advance. I think some people sadly advocate that final responsibility.
I would also add that there are such a thing as reserve prices and some horses go through very good performance horse auctions.
What a sad topic for a friday night! |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 08:53:09 AM
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In all of this there is an assumption that anyone who buys at auction is necessarily going to be a 'bad' home. An auction is a brief experience for a horse, who are we to say that its more traumatic for them than their experience on todays show scene with rent a mob?
I have a friend who has bought numerous times from auction, lovely knowledgeable home until she re-homed them on some years later to private homes.
I have bought a pure bred filly from auction, and a mare that had been through the ring when she was younger, and the stallion in dreadfully neglected condition outside the ring that I found a lovely home for. All pure bred Arabs with full paperwork.
I see only a few draw backs.
1. meat men are allowed to be there and bid against genuine private homes
2. the seller can lose contact completely with a much loved horse only sold through dire circumstances
3. the horses can pick up diseases on the day and need isolation in a new home which is undesirable from the stress point of view.
Playing devils advocate as you might have suspected |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 09:32:04 AM
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Jamana, it does depend on the horse. I would rather my oldest was PTS than sold on - she's not the easiest in some ways and at 20 now, would be unlikely to find a good home for life as an ornament. The others, if it came to it, are all sellable but I'd rather sell privately - or loan out for a while - than send a horse to a sale. Taking to the slaughterhouse yourself, at least you do get a small amount and you know where the horse had ended up.
It cost me just over £300 to have Khafif PTS and cremated, at a time when I'd spent thousands on vet bills for Khafif and for one of mine who I lost to colic. I do sympathise with people who can't afford that - I couldn't really if I was honest with myself but I worked more hours (at minimum wage) to cover it. I know not everyone can do that, though.
OTOH how many of the horses gong to sales like Llanybydder are there because of their owners' genuine hardship and how many are just there as an easy way to get rid of stock? That's the attitude I'm against, breeders overbreeding and selling on at a sale rather than making the effort to find good private homes. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 2:31:56 PM
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| Once again, a topic that raises emotions but has no right or wrong answer. I purchased a horse and a pony in the early 80s at horse auctions, both as two-year-olds. The Arab filly went on to be my foundation mare, breeding three, carefully-planned foals and successfully competing in open showjumping. She was with me till she died of natural causes, aged 28. The Welsh Section A mare is still here, aged 29, much loved, retired and still galloping around with the youngsters. However, the meat men were out in force these days too and many unsuspecting owners sold their loved and outgrown ponies through the ring not knowing what their inevitable fate would be. It is a bit like Russian Roulette and those that fortune smiles upon are the lucky ones, going on to good homes as many, like the two I bought, did. For the less-fortunate, they can look forward to a life akin to Black Beauty's or have a fairly swift end at an abattoir. I have tried to protect any of mine from having to face an uncertain future like that by making provision for them in my will. No-one should condemn others for making choices that they, personally, wouldn't make without knowing the circumstances. More and more people are facing hard times. Equally, many take horse ownership too lightly and any excuse is a good one to get rid of one and move on to the next one or simply get out altogether. Ask some of the rescue centres about some of the excuses they get for people wanting to get rid of their horses, dogs or cats. Some of them defy belief. We live in a throwaway society and it's getting progressively worse. We also live in a society where we are quick to condemn. Neither of these things are admirable human traits. To top that, we have those who knowingly deal regularly through the sale ring purely to make money, or off-load unwanted stock, and that is a totally different ball game! I certainly wouldn't want any of mine to fall into those hands. I think most people on this site do care but we show it in different ways. That doesn't make it wrong if another's way isn't yours. At the end of the day, it is the welfare of the horse that counts and getting into heated debate, or worse, doesn't do that any good at all, does it? |
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http://performancearabians.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/PerformanceArabians
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 8:02:11 PM
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| U sed to go to cambridge ssles regular as clockwork and south hall and several others, I will say no more |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 8:35:12 PM
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| I know this will be ignored but big eyeopener here, Martins Abbatoir go to cambridge sales - but NOT to buy, they have found that there is an incredibly lucrative business running all the so called rescue cases back to their new homes, amazing how popular rescuing is becoming and how little people prepare - like how to transport the animal home. Cambridge is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, John Dyers staff seem to have some scruples and morals and will call the rspca themselves if needed. |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 8:42:49 PM
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I know John Dyer of old, he spent many a time around our house over 30 years ago,and I went to Cambridge Sales last year with a friend of mine and there were alot of faces that were there from 25 years ago, so I am sorry, I would NOT send anything to that particular sale |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 10:30:31 PM
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| Yep many faces from old like albert, you must know him, absolute fountain of knowledge and one council leader who will not tether, if you wnat to know the real ins and outs and what is behind buyers, sellers and dealers that attend he is the person to ask. At the end of the day if it reaches good money its not a rescue and those are the women that martins usually end up offering their services to and we often see bragging at local shows about their quite expensive rescue case in so and so class. |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 08:32:50 AM
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| Kimzi I think we are talking about different people.. maybe there are two John Dyer autioneers???????? I think I will just leave it there |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 2:27:07 PM
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My animals are my family, my best friends, and no matter what the circumstances, they will never have a £1 over their heads.
Not even if we were on our last legs financially.
They will never want for anything, because if and when I cannot look after them, they will be PTS.
If sold, Even to lovely peaple with the best intentions, sometimes their own circumstances change, and I could not gamble my animal family with an un-certain future.
I know its not everyones choice, but its mine, and its a very hard one.
I hope with all my heart that the horses got good homes, that were moved on in the sale. |
       
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TREASURES AT TEMPLEWOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 7:41:33 PM
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| Pat, Babs.....my sentiments exactly....... |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 7:55:22 PM
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Well said Pat
Those who point out that some horses at sales find good homes are completely missing the point--- Lots of them don't--- they go to the meat man or go on to one home after another after the sale, or back to the sale.......stuff no horse should ever have to endure. I would be very happy indeed if all horse sales were closed, so that owners have to take responsibilty for what happens next to their horses, instead of deceiving themselves that they are giving the horse a chance by sending it to a sale. |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 8:45:06 PM
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I guess this is why the general public view horsey people as elitist snobs, obviously none of us ever fiancially struggle or fall on hard times, better a sale than an emaciated horse hidden behind a tall fence.euthanasia is not free, disposal even at an abbatoir is not free. Then for each extra horse owned it adds up. My June bill for losing a very dear old friend after the colic call out and drugs was £120 to vet and then £525 to the crematorium, I would never wish to see a fit healthy horse be euthanased just because the bottom has fallen out of the private sale market and it is becoming hard to give horses away at the mo. Going off to hide now. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:17:47 PM
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Kimzi, it isn't a choice between an emaciated horse hidden behind a wall or a sale! None of mine will have either fate befall them and I am by no means a wealthy person. It is a question of priorities.
The prices you quote for euthanasia and cremation are no more than any vets bill can be at any time---and not for anything particularly complicated. If someone can't afford vet bills when they come along , well maybe they shouldn't have had that horse in the first place. That isn't me being elitist---that is me putting the horse first. Buying a horse cheap is only the very start of the cost, and that is why horses bought cheap at sales so often have uncertain futures, change hands frequently, and land up as that emaciated horse behind the wall maybe. Which brings me back to why sales should be closed down. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 9:30:31 PM
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Well pointed out Zan..........there is more a chance of a horse purchased from a sale for peanuts....to end up the emaciated horse hidden behind a wall, simply because the purchaser did not realise that buying, is the cheap part of the deal!!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Llanybydder again
