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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 10:05:55 PM
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Carla,
You have it right..the genes will guide the response; the situation will dictate it, man's intervention if needed, done properly, can assure a happy outcome.
Personally, like you, working with Arabians has really nothing to do with working with horses generally. |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 10:20:37 PM
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If memory serves Saklawi I (aka Saqlawi Jedrani el Azrak el Kebir to give him his lttle used proper name ) was aquired from the Ruala by Ali Pasha Sherif, who if memory serves (and it is shaky tonight having just described one of my greys as being "dark bay"??????? ) bred Wazir having got his sire and dam from Abbas Pasha
Mike
PS Saklawi I .. Nazeer is so much easier to remember!!! |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 11:36:32 PM
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And to add insult to injury....Mesaoud AND Mahruss both trace to Barq via Zobeyni but express oh so much differently! (How lovely to know that someone else has such memory hiccups...) On the other hand, you may have also shown why they do tend to marry up so nicely with Saklawi I!
Thanks, Mike! Especially about Nazeer... |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 12:00:20 AM
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Mike, I just love those moments when "life" catches you out, they can be so embarrassing!!!!! I have had times when I (temporarily) forget my children's names and ages, but only when it's important!!
&Egbert, I have never really studied pedigrees, but you mentioned Zobeyni, he appears many times in most of my horses' pedigrees. I really can't remember if I have heard of this horse from any source, so I know nothing of his looks, temperament or influence. If you have time, could you please enlighten me???
Many thanks in advance.
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 12:19:37 AM
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Hi Carla!
If you go to http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zobeyni and click on the picture...you will see him as depicted by Gericault? Am not sure but according to Lady Anne he was, "....a white Seglawi Jedran of Ibn Sybeni's strain of the Mehed tribe of Fedaan Anazeh (original horse) bought by Abbas Pasha from Ibn Sbeyni.
Note the phonetical spellings: Zobeyni given name and Sbeyni, the human son (Ibn=son of).
Considering all the shenanigans that Abbas Pasha went through to acquire the creme de la creme of Arabian breeding....you know one thing for sure...Zobeyni was first class quality and he was Seglawi which further added to the mystique.
Just a moment to discuss Abbas Pasha...What little I've read the man was an S O B to his fellow humans but his love/passion for the Arabian horse was without bounds. There is one story that he overheard a groom speak roughly to a horse and so had the groom bound and dragged into the barn and nailed his tongue to the floor....The point of the story? You think you know some nuts in the industry now???? |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 01:53:02 AM
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Egbert, thank you for giving me a direction to find Zobeyni. As I had never heard him mentioned or appraised before, I feared he may have been inferior (stupid me - head in clouds?? I should know better!!!!). Zeyn had at least 98 crosses to Zobeyni (I need to re-check that count). I really should have followed a basic instinct and realised that a particular stallion would only be used so many times if he was "prolific"
Abbas Pasha must have been a "monument" of a man (big personality + power) - terrible to work for, probably even worse to be married to, but if you had the pleasure of being an Arabian Horse - bliss!!!
Many thanks again, Carla xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 03:08:24 AM
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Hi Kate,
Sure must have missed those questions! You can credit the UK and the Blunts for the Russian movement, as well as American as well as Egyptian....Your boy is blessed with multiples to Azrek, a stallion that the Blunts acquired from the Anazeh...He is in nearly every line of the pedigree in multiples (run each horse in Tobago's fifth generation on the All Breed-and you will see what I mean). Azrek ("They heard of a grey stallion belonging to ibn ed Derri which was described by Zeyd in glowing terms. This was the famous Azrek whom they eventually purchased some months later thanks to Zeyd's ingenuity and persistence."), his son Ahmar and great grandson *Berk that is credited for phenomenal movement. Up closer...*Bask blood is supposed to carry it as well but don't think he compares to Azrek's reliability. Even with only a line to Azrek down on the tail female line, movement can be out of this world. So yes, your boy shouldn't have a problem passing great movement to whomever he is bred to)
"Hot"...interchangeable with "attitude"...the charismatic 'look at me' can be seen in the Bey Shah horses...(It is in Padron's lines but tempered by Bright Shadow)...Combined with a goodly dollop of Rodania...you can have 'real hot'....Color is at play as well....and kind of scarey for the neophytes, with the greys tending to be a bit mellower than the chestnuts and bays.
Thank you for the kind words, too. Brits were responsible for educating me in large measure and answering the questions all the books I've acquired, couldn't...One of four principle mentors was Cecil Covey and his wife, Grace, who in one day answered questions that I'd pondered for a decade...One being whatever happened to Skowronek? How did he die? (colic...sadly) The bloodlines I am utilizing are thus almost entirely quasi modern British (old Crabbet/GSB with modern touches like El Shaklan) created with dam lines for the most part going back to the Spanish import, Zulima, a Seglawi al Abd. Currently the dam lines I am utilizing are Zulima, Bint Helwa, and Milordka-all Seglawi as all have a heavy dose of Kuhailans with the head sire's being to Rodania!
Carla,
My pleasure and did you notice the name Zeyd, above (if you were wondering about a name origin in British breeding...)?
By the way, think you pegged AP perfectly! (Ha!)
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Edited by - Egbert on 02 Oct 2006 03:34:01 AM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 03:52:23 AM
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Interestingly enough, since we've wandered into tail- male lines Another saklawi , Jamil El Kebir El Achkar was acquired from the same source(Ibn Sbeyni etc) as Zobeyni and he (Jamil ....) founded the male line which eventually produced The Shah (Fabah X Bint Fada) and crossed so well with horses rich in the blood of Zobeyni and Barq.
The more one looks at the pedigrees of the early horses and how they have bred on, one cannot help but be amazed by just how fantastically good the Blunt's, Ali Pasha Sherif and later Lady Wentworth were, both as breeders and as judges of horseflesh. We shall undoubtedly never see their like again!
I think that perhaps the differance between how Mesaoud and Mahruss produced may be that Mesaoud represents a couple of extra generations of breeding by Ali Pasha Sherif and of course Mesaoud was a saklawi(with 3 crosses to Zobeyni) whereas Mahruss wasn't being a wadnan khursan(sp?)
Mike
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 08:17:11 AM
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"The more one looks at the pedigrees of the early horses and how they have bred on, one cannot help but be amazed by just how fantastically good the Blunt's, Ali Pasha Sherif and later Lady Wentworth were, both as breeders and as judges of horseflesh. We shall undoubtedly never see their like again!"
As always---agree but then thought about it and would add...If Wilfrid hadn't been such a scalawag...etc. Lady Anne chose not to dwell on the hurt and thrust herself full bore into studying Arabic and the horses. And Lady Wentworth was the sum total of both parents without Wilfrid's mischief. Wish there were more to find on Ali Pasha Sherif. He was obviously a great steward.
The biggest surprise...Hollywood hasn't made the movie...YET!
Earlier in a discussion of sabino coloration...I want to add a slight correction. In the US Mahruss is actually Mahruss II (Mahruss x Bint Nura) in the UK records. It is the combination of Mahruss II, Mesaoud and Rodania that the breeder 99 9/10% of the time (actually I can't cite a time I haven't seen it with Sabino coloration)sees sabino, or parti-colored horses. Wasn't Mesaoud's dam considered to be parti-colored though actually born gray? Like El Shaklan, when she turned gray the white was then never seen? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 08:33:57 AM
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One could also add into the mix, Lord Cromer who effectively ran Egypt with a free hand however he saw fit. And just happened to be Wilfred's bitterest political rival; so far as British policy there was concerned. Truly a great movie
Mike |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 08:45:47 AM
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| Gee Mike! Great point! All we would need is one mysterious death and what a TV series! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 10:44:45 AM
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Just to develop the political sub-plot a little before we return to the horses Cromer received his peerage for efficiently quelling the 1854 Indian Mutiny and such was his reputation thereafter that he effectively shaped the nature of British imperialism from then on. His view that the natives were un-civilised and incompetant idiots whose only chance of living in an efficiantly run society was for "us" to run the country for them!
The dashing and brilliant Wilfred however believed that the best way to develop a nation, was to give its people the education and tools they needed and let them get on with it, with self determination being the ultimate goal This was actually the view that preceded Cromer's imperialism, early and ideolistic victorian Britian finding itself with an empire that it didn't really want. What the educated British elite aspired to before Cromer, was a collection of equal and democratic trading partners, sharing a common set of values and laws with the UK (England, Scotland and Wales) at the centre.
Regarding Mesaoud's dam being parti-coloured Egbert you are I think correct, APS was certainly interested in how the parti-coloured look bred on Mesaoud's white may quite possibly have been the result of deliberate breeding.
Mike |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 11:04:55 AM
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Interestingly Mike I bred a foal this year by Zeyn (98 crosses to Zobeyni) out of a Shah great-great grandaughter, tail female goes back to Hagar. The resulting colt is stunning at 4 months, he appears to have inherited the best of both parents. The mare's full sister unfortunately slipped her Zeyn foal at Christmas, which has sadly left me with no filly of these combined bloodlines to carry on.
Carla, xx. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 12:55:37 PM
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I forget whence the reference comes now, but somewhere (?GBE?) there is record quoted of AP collecting as many sabinos as he could from the tribes - but sadly, most of them were later lost in the great horse sickness plague.
Keren |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 1:03:38 PM
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Carla, your description of Zeyn's personality is very interesting: I remember Feodora as being a very sweet and gentle mare, quite "cuddly". Mrs T certainly loved her greatly. I also remember Zeyn in the ring at Malvern the time one handler's attempt to influence the judge resulted in a loose stallion prepared to challenge all and sundry, and Zeyn just standing quietly at the ringside with his handler's arms round his neck!
My Marawan son - who is out of a Seglawieh of Ibn ed Derri mare - couldn't be more different. He is a very dominant horse (son of a dominant dam), but as a youngster went through a spell of getting kicks out of anything scary...we reckoned if he ahd been human, he would have been into extreme sports like bungy jumping, snowboarding, riding rollercoasters, etc. He is incredibly brainy, but he didn't mentally mature until he was about 10, when he mellowed a lot. OTOH, his son, who is double Seglawi of Ibn ed Derri, and whose mother is a real ditz, at 3yo takes after his grandma and has a "yeah, yeah, whatever, bring the next thing on" attitude!
Keren |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 2:02:07 PM
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Thanks Egbert! That is fascinating! I just assumed (as most people do, I think) that the big flying trot was a Russian thing. Intrigued to find that it traces to Crabbet after all. Did the Russians use these lines more than others? (I'm just wondering generally why Russian horses are so often big movers...?)
Thanks also for the "hot" tip! Perhaps I should avoid too much doubling of Bey Shah lines, then, unless tempered by another factor. "Attitude" is a good thing for a show horse, but one can have too much of a good thing!
Wow - you've certainly had the best possible education. I sometimes imagine what it would be like to have Cecil Covey - or even Lady Wentworth - here on AL to answer our questions... While I understand the importance of 'preservation' breeding, I can't help wondering what sires/new lines Lady Wentworth would be using at Crabbet if she were still alive today (El Shaklan? Padrons Psyche?...).
I'd love to see your horses - do you have any photos you could post? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 3:30:58 PM
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"Thanks Egbert! That is fascinating! I just assumed (as most people do, I think) that the big flying trot was a Russian thing. Intrigued to find that it traces to Crabbet after all. Did the Russians use these lines more than others? (I'm just wondering generally why Russian horses are so often big movers...?)"
It does show though how sticking a label on a horse can hide what is going on so far as its breeding and genetic makeup is concerned. One thing that state studs can achieve more easily than the majority of private breeders is consistency of aims and goals and traditions over a long period of time together with an intimate knowledge of the lines they are breeding
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 3:46:35 PM
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Keren,
Don't forget Skittles, Wilfred's long time paramour to add to the mix!
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 6:18:45 PM
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You are all so right about the film/TV-series potential of the Blunts' story! It would be wonderful. Just occurred to me that I have a very good friend, Paula Milne, who is a brilliant and famous TV/Film scriptwriter - and she's great at historical subjects like this (she did that superb BBC series The Virgin Queen recently about Elizabeth I). Do you think I should mention the idea to her?
She really is seriously good - won BAFTAs and everything - and the BBC love her and will commission practically anything with her name on it! If she liked the idea, there would be a real chance of actually getting this story onto prime-time telly! (Which would be a great PR-boost for Arab horses, as well as great drama...)
What do you think - shall I talk to her about it? |
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jaj
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4324 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 6:27:33 PM
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Can we all be extras Kate? 
Jen
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Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma) |
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kofihorse
Bronze Member
241 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 7:00:06 PM
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Don't forget our horses, Jen! Roles all round for them, of course!
(Shame my Kofi is no longer around, he always spotted a camera at 100 yards and posed for it, he would have been in his element in the movies )
This is all so fascinating - I have learned SO much in the last few weeks on here. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 7:58:33 PM
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Hey Kate! Am opting for a nice regular series that would make Dallas look like the Beverly Hillbillies comparatively. There is so much there and yes, it would be the greatest thing for our horses if done properly. Have MS. Milne read PILGRIMAGE OF PASSION by Elizabeth Longford, THE AUTHENTIC ARABIAN HORSE by Lady Wentworth, JOURNALS AND CORRESPONDENCE OF LADY ANNE BLUNT, edited by Rosemary Archer and THE CRABBET ARABIAN STUD by Archer, Covey and Pearson...The first will give the details of why this would be such a great period piece series...all of Wilfrids women, if done in a weekly series, would still ensure a 7 year run at the least. The second contains a lot of material from Lady W's standpoint; J & C from Lady Anne's; and the final on Crabbet would give a good look at the principle horses.
Can't remember if Pilgrimage notes it but think it does, that Lady Anne aborted nearly every year she was fertile and and those she didn't, had several still born full term babies....Lady W was the only one to survive to adulthood....There would be at least 3-4 substories with each episode! Great idea.
I'll volunteer to check out the storyline and also volunteer for the role of Ethelred Dillon (obsessed with Arabians, a bit of a dingbat and comic relief)...possibly the only woman in the UK not subjected to an afternoon tryst with Wilfrid; and everyone here should be able to provide horses, property, etc as well as extra talent. By the way there are a number of people still around that knew Lady Wentworth. Rosemary Archer was one of her most trusted friends...think your friend would have a vast wealth of knowledge from which to draw.
Mike is absolutely right and the only thing I'd add about the State studs is that they CULL RUTHLESSLY...
By the way...great question about who she would have used. Back in the '80's I put that to several who had known her well and the universal response was *El Shaklan.
(folks...it really pays to use the 'preview' ....@#$%^&!) |
Edited by - Egbert on 02 Oct 2006 8:04:01 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 8:05:23 PM
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Hi Egbert,
I was expecting your answer regarding who Lady W would have used(and agree with it 100%) so it only seemed fair to let you have the honour of going first!
Mike |
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Topic |
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Tail Female Line....?
