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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 12:28:40 AM
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Sorry about Narim, I saw him at Al-Wahla earlier this year and he looked absolutely magnificent! I am glad to know he is still passing on his marvellous genes! 
Marie  |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 02:04:38 AM
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Sorry everyone, I'm gonna jump in here with cold feet because I think it's such a fascinating thread and would love your opinions.
My (sadly deceased) stallion was tail femail line to Rodania. Fantastic but feisty temperament, spooky but bold too, excellent riding horse (rode out with his in-season brood mares, including daughters), calm when ridden and handled but had the show attitude when asked.
He was incredibly intelligent: he knew the difference between an in-hand, covering or show bridle. I could even ask him (verbally) if he wanted a rug on or off, he was always right??? He was fantastic with children, no matter how noisy, but would kill a fox or pheasant that dared to enter his field.
As a young ridden horse, DISTRACTION, was the key!!! He had a massive shy, but we learnt to live with it. If I spotted "the spooky" object first I would look the other way and whistle or sing, he would then totally ignore the spooky thing. If he spotted it first he would violently shy, then make sure he was back underneath me before I hit the ground. He also hated going round in circles (being schooled), but was happy to perform ANY dressage movement along the roads and bridlepaths on command. Believe me, I am no dressage rider, but Zeyn was happy to humour me (leg-yielding, rein-back, even passage)!!!
We also tried other mind games (please try it). Walking along a quiet piece of road or bridlepath (no traffic or distractions), dropped stirrups and held reins by buckle, completely relaxed, looked around and "just thought" trot - sure enough, he broke into a gentle trot every time and I really didn't move my body at any time. We tried this on several occaisions - worked every time!!! Mind-reading or intelligence???
I think both, but where does it come from? Is it a particular bloodline or is it just Arabs in general?
I would really love to hear your views.
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 07:38:14 AM
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Carla,
Am so sorry you have lost such a wonderful horse.
Bet he could do some levades, too! The Rodaniats can be incredibly intelligent ... I've one, too! Let me guess-his body was compact, balanced and he NEVER slipped in mud?! His head was very pleasing if not beautiful...extremely wide between the eyes and they were low-set too? The width between his ears were such that you could comfortably place your hand between them? That would give him a lot of brain space. Interestingly, there is a breeder in the US that has collected literally thousands of Arabian horse skulls and to no one's surprise found the following: Most HORSES have a brain roughly the size of a large turkey egg. An Arabians is as large as most adult human males and sometimes larger. My thought is your boy's was huge and he learned how to use it.
One thing, in a discussion with a researcher many years ago, think the person was at UC Davis, he had found that the part of a horse's brain that was the most developed was the emotional center....or the area that was in the same area that would be in a human's. Am not at all surprised he was somewhat psychic. So to have a horse that is both extremely intelligent AND sensitive could be quite a challange, too. He certainly sounds like one of the great ones.
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 07:42:12 AM
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Carla,
Your boy sounded just wonderful, I loved reading about him. Obviously I cant tell you anything about his personality traits through his pedigree . However, I can tell you something I know  ...
What you described i.e. him moving off when you 'thought' about it. That is your 'energy'. When your horse is so light and focused on you they will move and slow from your energy (raising and lowering) both in saddle and on the ground. It's how horses move each other (well, the initial, polite phase) This shows how well your boy was listening to you, brilliant!
I am doing this with Po right now and she is getting there. Though I do mostly have to give a little squeeze to get her to canter. When I drop my energy she very good at slowing the gaits to match, or maybe she's just a lazy girl!!  |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 08:40:06 AM
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They are so tuned in to us ! I can go into minuette's box with a syringe to give her, her medicene, and its in my pocket
I hum to myself and try and look as though I am going in to give her a polo or something nice, yet she still knows! she goes to the back of the stable and turns to the wall, How does she know ! they all watch me when I am in the yard for any sign that I am going to start feeding them and dont make a sound, but when I do finally think I will start the feeds they all start calling to me, spooky! |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 12:24:11 PM
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Egbert, you are absolutely spot on in you description of Zeyn. Yes, he did a perfect levade, but usually his choice not mine as I have never been classically trained!!! He only ever slipped in mud once, when he was about 7. He was in his paddock and showing off to a large number of visitors (which he always did beautifully), he reared up and spun around on one leg, leg slipped and he very gracefully slid to the floor. I had never seen a horse look embarrassed before, but that is the only word that describes the look on his face. He walked to the furthest corner of the paddock without a backward glance!!! He certainly hurt nothing more than his pride!!!
His head is also exactly as you described, width between the ears, low set eyes and extremely beautiful. I showed him in-hand as a 3 year old under a very eminent and experienced judge who said that Zeyn had the best head he had ever seen!! Of course, I already knew that!!!
Brains, beauty, balanced, compact, sensitive (certainly a challenge) and he was also a great teacher. He has made me look at each individual horse in a different way and think about the way I handle them, a sort of horse "psychology", for want of a better word.
Fee and Lyndilou, they are so tuned in and focussed arn't they, and the more time you spend with them, the more tuned in they get. They never cease to amaze me. I can't imagine riding a better horse than an Arab.
I can't put into words how much I owe this horse, I miss him so much, to me he was definitely one of the "great" ones.
Egbert, I so admire you for being able to really "read into" a horse, it's amazing and thank you very much for sharing that insight.
Carla, xx. |
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Indalo
Silver Member
United Kingdom
298 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 1:13:08 PM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Carla,
Am not at all surprised he was somewhat psychic. So to have a horse that is both extremely intelligent AND sensitive could be quite a challange, too. He certainly sounds like one of the great ones.
Egbert, I don't know if you've read Lesley Skipper's book on the Arabian showhorse, but she discusses the psychic thing in there. I can even vouch for it long distance - my K.Rodan Padron grandson had a leg wound as a youngster, in a very awkward place to bandage. At the time, he was stabled about 4 miles from our house, and at 4am I woke up and told my OH 'Roupert's got his bandage off - we need to go up to the stables". The SO wasn't too happy at being woken, but we went up, and sure enough, there was my boy with his bandage in a complete mess and looking very woebegone!
Keren |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 1:18:03 PM
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| Originally posted by Tahir
Egbert, you are absolutely spot on in you description of Zeyn. Yes, he did a perfect levade, but usually his choice not mine as I have never been classically trained!!! He only ever slipped in mud once, when he was about 7. He was in his paddock and showing off to a large number of visitors (which he always did beautifully), he reared up and spun around on one leg, leg slipped and he very gracefully slid to the floor. I had never seen a horse look embarrassed before, but that is the only word that describes the look on his face. He walked to the furthest corner of the paddock without a backward glance!!! He certainly hurt nothing more than his pride!!!
His head is also exactly as you described, width between the ears, low set eyes and extremely beautiful. I showed him in-hand as a 3 year old under a very eminent and experienced judge who said that Zeyn had the best head he had ever seen!! Of course, I already knew that!!!
Brains, beauty, balanced, compact, sensitive (certainly a challenge) and he was also a great teacher. He has made me look at each individual horse in a different way and think about the way I handle them, a sort of horse "psychology", for want of a better word.
Fee and Lyndilou, they are so tuned in and focussed arn't they, and the more time you spend with them, the more tuned in they get. They never cease to amaze me. I can't imagine riding a better horse than an Arab.
I can't put into words how much I owe this horse, I miss him so much, to me he was definitely one of the "great" ones.
Egbert, I so admire you for being able to really "read into" a horse, it's amazing and thank you very much for sharing that insight.
Carla, xx.
Don't know if I am throwing a spanner in the works here, but having known quite a few of Zeyn's relations, I would say he got his brains from his Dad, Marawan EAO. We also have a Marawan son, Marimbah, and his intelligence is frightening - even for an Arab. We reckon he does calculus in his head just for fun, LOL! The wide forehead is also characteristic of Marawan's offspring, though our boy does NOT have it - externally, he takes more after his dam's sire, Fahim Hisan, though he does have the famous Marawan long/thick mane & tail!
Keren |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 8:09:09 PM
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Carla,
Really it is more of just a lot of study (30 years plus) and seeing patterns in the pedigrees. I know this will sound sort of bizarre but an animal psychic once told me that those animals with whom we find an extra special bond find ways of coming back to us-that their souls make leaps to stay with us. I have been blessed with a beloved dog who a year after passing seems to have made that leap in the guise of my first Arabian gelding and when he passed the personality seems to have leaped to my stallion who, until the gelding's passing never exhibited any of those characteristics. So if my experience is a measure, your boy will be back and you'll know...
Keren,
Marawan is double Rodania via both his sire and dam...Remember there isn't an Egyptian that would exist as you know them without Crabbet. In Zeyn's case the Rodania genes married up just right on both sides of the pedigree and as such...Zeyn's incredible intelligence came through...and from Carla's description...a great deal of love and loyalty as well.
The wide forward is a big help, but eye depth and space between the base of the ears is a big help too. You are making some excellent observations...combined with a little extra pedigree digging...you are on the right road.
Also, your observation about the ESP/psychic...Sadly I've not read Ms. Skipper's book ...hopefully I'll get to in the near future. 36 years ago I volunteered time at UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute working for Dr. Thelma Moss who was doing ESP studies for the CIA who were trying to determine what the old Soviet Union was up to. Interestingly...she found that some of the most psychically sensitive were - don't laugh -emotional, female alcoholics...who knocked most off the charts! What was in common with our 'psychic' horses...that super developed area of sensitivity in the brain!
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Edited by - Egbert on 29 Sep 2006 8:23:10 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 9:59:13 PM
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Keren, I'm so glad that Zeyn inherited his intelligence from Marawan and also many attributes from his dam Feadora too. I didn't really know either of his parents very well, I probably only met them twice. To my (very amateur)eye he didn't physically look like either, although he did resemble some of his earlier ancestors. He also appeared to sire more "english" looking foals, regardless of the dam's bloodlines, his foals also have intelligence to spare!!!
Egbert, it's so comforting to know that his soul will be close to me. He only passed away three weeks ago and the pain of losing him is still very raw, not just for me but my husband too. I am sure we will both recognise him when he returns.
Your point about emotional female alcholics is very interesting, maybe I should open that bottle of good wine I've been saving!!!
Many thanks to all for your fascinating observations, it is definitely "food for the brain".
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 10:07:36 PM
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| NOOOOOO! Carla! Moss seemed to think the drinking was caused because the women were so sensitive...they drank to numb the receptivity....Yikes! Also ESP did seem to be something that was inherited on the female lines! BUT! Don't open that bottle!!!! |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 01:58:57 AM
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Don't worry Egbert, I will save the bottle for a very special occaision!!!
I am suffering from insomnia at the moment, so I'm going to check out my friend's mares bloodlines. The mare has a few social, personality, bonding problems. Nothing major, she's just a pain sometimes!!! Would appreciate your views?? |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 02:28:24 AM
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| Have checked the bloodlines, she's Nuhra, kehailet el wadhnieh. From my very limited experiences with this mare, I find that she is very dominant in every respect (almost stallion like), but when kept buzy, she's a very able and tractable student - she almost "loves" being told what to do, she will trot and canter around the school in a perfect outline, most of the time!! Also she's very athletic - loves to rear and buck (not under saddle), usually when excited or stressed!! So basically she is very pushy but loves to be disciplined, is this typical?? |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 11:54:55 AM
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Ok...here is my guess: Either her dam was fairly dominant or she was raised with obnoxious colts or larger youngsters and learned early on that if life is to be a banquet, she was going to have to make it that way! So she dominated all the youngsters around her. I've a filly who had the sweetest dam imaginable but the filly was weaned in a pasture with half a dozen older TB's and Anglos...life wasn't fun until she learned how to run up, bite one in the posterior and then outrun them all in 10 acre pastures! She now can't be put with any mares (starting as a two year old) 'cause she'll challange all of them! On the other hand she is wonderful with humans, sweet and affectionate. When she was started under saddle she never even offered to buck.
Interestingly enough, here in the states we did a bit of a survey and discovered that alpha mares usually had alpha foals and those youngsters won consistently in hand in large measure because they had the attitude of 'I own the world and you don't!' and strut their stuff coming into the ring and standing up!
Hope you got some rest, Carla! |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 12:11:10 PM
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I agree with that it has happened in all Minnies foals without exception but they go on to strutt their stuff when out in the ring and have loads of look at me attitude which may account for her having a high percentage of champion offspring |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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mazey
Gold Member
England
501 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 1:57:22 PM
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Fascinating reading and it also follows on from previous posts on this thread re nature and nurture. I STIll don't see how you can differentiate totally between the two - the case you cite Egbert surely illustrates this. So although you can describe strains/dam lines as having particular traits , early upbringing must enhance or hinder these.
Carla my mare also traces tail female to Rodania and although she is not feisty, the other characteristics your boy had, my mare also displays. Very intelligent, very sensitive, sensible to ride but spooky (I describe it as unconfident), anticipates what you want her to do almost before you think it, so she is always one step ahead of me. Also funnily enough she HATES being schooled in an arena and will look really grumpy and put her lovely, little ears flat back and pull faces. But like your horse will happily leg yield, do roll backs etc out trail riding.
I was really interested in personalities and how people get along with their horses personalities - that's why I started the other thread "Does your personality match your horses".
I hadn't thought of Zelah's characteristics as inherited from a particular line (because of the nature/nurture argument)and also because I assumed her lightness was due to all the training (natural horsemanship stuff) I have done with her - lots of liberty work, being aware of your body language, really tuning in to the horse and so on. But I'm open to more esoteric theories and if you read the other thread I wrote that I think it was fate that brought Zelah into my life (sounds a bit pretentious I know but I have learned so so much from her) Sorry to hear you have lost your boy, he sounded lovely. |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 02:13:36 AM
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Hello again Egbert and I sincerely apologise for asking so many questions. The kuhailet el wadhnieh mare in question was weaned at a very young age (just less than 4 months). I really don't know if her dam was dominant (on the one occaision I saw her, in a herd environment, she didn't appear to be), she was exported just after her foal was weaned. At the filly's new home she was turned out with another young filly (6 months, but very "shy") and a very docile mare, they were all brought in every night.
The filly contracted a minor virus at just over 4 months old, unfortunately it developed into pneumonia. She was treated accordingly - including an immunity booster, the treatment obviously involved alot of handling - daily injections, etc. Her illness lasted about 6 weeks, through it all she remained very lively, bright and responsive, the only indication that she was ill was her breathing.
The rest of her "childhood" was pretty quiet in comparison. She was backed and ridden at 5, had a year off due to a sarcoid operation in her girth area, re-introduced to ridden work and has won both ridden classes that she has been entered in. She so obviously loves being ridden, especially the showing part. In-hand she never did "shine", although she has a fantastic trot and is typey with no major conformation faults.
She has lived with an elderly part-bred mare since she was 3 yrs, the part-bred mare is not dominant in any way, neither is the owner. Interestingly, the lady that has schooled this mare and rides her in the showring could very well be described as dominant.
This mare can sometimes be very stroppy when being handled, not aggressive, she just pulls faces and threatens. Her behaviour gets worse when she is kept waiting, she appears to have no patience.
So given the information above, do you feel that the owner should be more dominant in her daily handling of the horse as this appears to work for the show rider???
Mazey, what do you think to the nurture/nature belief, given the above information?
I believe you are right when you said that fate brought you and Zelah together, it was certainly true with Zeyn and myself, we were introduced after a series of unexpected events. I also believe that he chose me and "commanded" his life as opposed to just living it!!! I know that sounds really stupid and as a "normally" rational person, I can't believe I just wrote that!!!! The only point I will differ on is that Zeyn was never "unconfident". He did, occasionally, get very scared of certain things, for example, a bright red flapping plastic bag, a trailer full of squeeling piglets, a pushchair, various farmyard machinery, the sort of things that any horse would turn tail and run from. Zeyn never ran, he stood and shook sometimes, but he never turned his back on the scarey object and he always had to touch it gently with his nose to reassure himself, so I wouldn't really describe that behaviour as unconfident, possibly overconfident, LOL.
Zelah sounds lovely, she obviously makes you very happy, and she's very lucky to have such a sensitive and caring owner. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 07:26:09 AM
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Mazey,
Perhaps I am not very clear...The genes tend to suggest that certain lines will react more in one way than in another; conversely a good environment with a proper handler/trainer will guide iffy responses to a hopefully correct outcome.
Carla,
Interesting. Weaned young and turned out with a filly that was by your description submissive; later a very retiring mare? Perhaps then she never learned one way or another to be anything but dominant in the pecking order. It is entirely possible, put out with a group of alpha mares...the wadnan would be middle or even last in the pecking order...From what you are now describing she has never been subjected to a dominant group so has been allowed basically to just be herself without much correction?
If the mare is behaving aggressively-for lack of a better term - don't reward her. When she exhibits desired behavior give her a carrot and a lot of praise...make her work harder for the carrot and praise each time. Try distraction...As for the owner behaving dominantly? Think the owner really needs to be consistently firm, fair (have you noticed that animals have a sense of fair play?) and the leader....Bad behavior, i.e., a bite or attempted kick should be instantly punished. Loud noise is hated as much as a smack. The thing to remember, as with humans... for each disciplined action there should be 5 times reward even if you have to go look for a reason to reward. The idea is to have the horse so look forward to their human's presence that they learn to recognize that hanging out with the human is a joy and misbehavior is forgotten. Another thing...they KNOW when they are behaving badly because usually the humans around act like something is amiss...AHA! "If I do such and such...the owner will pay more attention to me and jump or act nervously...Whee I found a new way to get more attention!" And there we go proving that animals train us!
Ex: (Don't try this...any other horse might have gotten anyone else killed)...My gelding...used to go goofy at least once a day and rear and pull while in hand. Genuinely scary stuff. Discipline was ignored. Then one day I said, 'Yahoo, wild stallion!' just as he began the prancing, rearing, pulling and generally behaving like an idiot. Everytime he would do it I'd praise him...pretty soon being able to anticipate the behavior BEFORE he started misbehaving, I'd say "yahoo, wild stallion" and then he began to recognize the cue. It would end with a carrot...Finally after just a few months, the only time he'd do such nonsense was ON CUE! In other words we tried something 'out of the box'...
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 09:24:26 AM
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More questions I'm afraid 
What would you expect if you bred two horses with identical male and female tail lines ie; Rodania and Saqlawi Jidran ?
Also interestingly (for me) having checked out my mares they all trace tail male to Barq AND in one case the filly's grand sires on both sides trace to Barq another mares sire & dam trace in tail male to him; can you tell me anything about him? What I thought was a likeing for Rodania type could actually be Barq, it seems that way once you start looking
Many Thanks in Advance
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 09:59:16 AM
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| Well, I'd say you really liked Barq! Which Barq? Year? which country? And Georgia, I don't know if I am having a senior moment but WHAT? Same Rodania and Saqlawi Jedran? The question doesn't read where I can make sense of it...If they have identical male and female lines they couldn't be Rodania and Saqlawi Jidran...those are both dam lines...Sorry! If you mean each individual has the same dam line, Rodania and the sire line is Nazeer....Who knows? It is what comes in between...like Rusleem bred to the straight Egyptian Ana Gayah (*Morafic x *Fawkia). My bet is that it would be something stunning! |
Edited by - Egbert on 01 Oct 2006 10:36:54 AM |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 10:43:48 AM
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Barq -1830 (according to All Breeds)
The mare traces in tail female to Rodania and tail male to Saqlawi Jidran as does the stallion??
NAZEER 1934 C MANSOUR 1921 BINT SAMIHA 1925
MANSOUR 1921 C GAMIL MANIAL 1912 NAFAA EL SAGHIRA 1910
GAMIL MANIAL 1912 H SAKLAWI II 1890 DALAL3 1903
SAKLAWI II 1890 C SAKLAWI I 1886 EL DAHMA5 1879
SAKLAWI I 1886 C SAQLAWI JIDRAN3 SAQLAWIYAH JIDRANIYAH
SAQLAWI JIDRAN C # #
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 9:40:19 PM
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Ok...See the problem. The reason one might choose to write Sire line: NAZEER is that in THE REFERENCE HANDBOOK OF STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN HORSES, the spelling-as with all words Arabic-is phonetic and so you have it spelled in this case as SAKLAWI.
It saves confusion if one uses the sire common to all those tracing to that particular sE sire line which in the case you are citing is indeed NAZEER.
You were absolutely right in the way you cited BUT it is usually easier as most of those with that sire line trace through to Nazeer and then have been imported to the UK, US, Europe, et. al.
Similar problem occurs with BARQ. More will recognize MAHRUSS, the several times removed great grandson of BARQ...Again it is easier to cite the sire of the horse that was imported or the import himself...MAHRUSS's sire being Wazir, I think....have to go back and look...but fairly common knowledge he was an Ali Pasha Sherif/Abbas Pasha origin stallion.
The problem with noting the sire's tail female is that they change all the way back...for example Nazeer's strain is Hadban Enzahi and Saklawi's is indeed Saklawiah Jedrania...i.e., the dam lines/strains keep changing right back to the dawn horse. Also not that there is a switch over to strain name going all the way back on the Nazeer sire line...i.e., the way the Bedu were supposed to recite. The given name wasn't relevant but the strain was in the recitation apparently.
My rule of thumb: keep it simple |
Edited by - Egbert on 01 Oct 2006 9:57:38 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2006 : 9:48:17 PM
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Egbert,I feel you are right about this mare. She has never really been aware of a "large herd" situation, perhaps her personality would be very different if she had?
I love the way you dealt with your gelding, unconventional methods with arabians very often work, in fact I threw "the book" away many years ago!!! It always amazes me that non-arab horsepeople class all arabians the same and condemn them as useless? Every one of my arabians have certain personality traits and react differently to each situation, it makes life exciting trying to figure them out. When I hear "Arabians, why would you breed THEM, they're mad", I always replay "Not mad, they just don't suffer fools easily"!!!
Carla, xx. |
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Tail Female Line....?
