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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 11:34:23 AM
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You'll have to excuse my utter ignorance here....
If you want to know whether a horse is Crabbet/Egyptian/Spanish etc, how you can tell just by looking at their pedigree? Is it just a case of knowing your stuff, so that you recognise the lines & where they originate, or is they an easy way to tell? I haven't ever read up on pedigrees, so the names mean nothing to me most of the time. Do I just need to study, or can someone point me in the direction of some kind of site/book that will break it down?
Thanks
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donna72_uk
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 12:14:33 PM
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Im the same moonfruit i havent a clue either lol
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Donna
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 1:04:50 PM
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| Originally posted by moonfruit
You'll have to excuse my utter ignorance here....
If you want to know whether a horse is Crabbet/Egyptian/Spanish etc, how you can tell just by looking at their pedigree? Is it just a case of knowing your stuff, so that you recognise the lines & where they originate, or is they an easy way to tell? I haven't ever read up on pedigrees, so the names mean nothing to me most of the time. Do I just need to study, or can someone point me in the direction of some kind of site/book that will break it down?
Thanks
While there are some organisations for specific bloodlines (the Crabbet Organisation, The Pyramid Society, etc), unfortunately the only way you can really get to grips with what's in your horse's pedigree is either to do some reading up or find someone who is prepared to go through the pedigree with you. If you are considering breeding, then you really MUST start learning about your horse's ancestors - and there is no better way (or more fascinating!) than reading up. There are oodles of books on the Arab, both general and on specific bloodlines, far more so that any other breed except the TB. There was a recent thread (around Xmas time) on AL about suggested reading material, so I recommend you have a look at that 
Keren |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 4:00:08 PM
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Thank you Keren I too am ignorant on this topic, there is only one thing for it, that is to buy some books and start learning.
Nicky |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 6:25:33 PM
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Nicky
It sounds horrible starting to read pedigree books but it can become addictive!! Most pedigree books are full of photos of the older horses and it's fascinating looking at the changes over the years. I'm one of those sad people who actually takes pedigree books and index cards to bed at night to relax!! It's terrific fun when you get the hang of it and I agree with Keren that it's an absolute must when you start breeding. The biggest thrill is planning a cross on paper and the foal is even better than you planned (or am I biased because I love the foals?)
Have fun!! |
   www.eviepeel.com    |
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mirage
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1457 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 7:14:22 PM
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| I use the American website Arabian Horse datasource. They have 5 generation pedigrees for all registered horses and list the colour and studbook (polish, spanish, russian etc) for all the ancestors! If you want me to email you the one for your horse email me on sally.roberts@logicacmg.com together with the registered name of your horse (and sire and dam if poss) and I will have a look for you! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 8:32:12 PM
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If you're not planning to breed and you are just curious you may find saturating yourself with names and trying to remember bloodlines and strains could be mind boggling... But if you're new to Arabs and you listen and absorb what people are saying and writing about, you'll still pick up quite a lot about it, but without having to study too hard.
When people point out a Crabbet, or Russian, or Polish or Egyptian Arab you will also soon discover what you like best too. Not everyone likes the same type!! |
Roseanne |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 8:47:27 PM
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I agree it can be mind blowing at first!....still is sometimes!!
Diane Ellis helps me to understand the Crabbet lines. It is addictive. I don't know where she stores all the info she is extremely knowlegeble
That's where I started,she bred my boy and she told me about his pedigree. Then I bought some books The Authentic Arabian Horse,The Arabian Horse (Tweedie)and all the Crabbet books I could lay my hands on. I buy The Crabbet Journal and .So names soon become familuar.
THEN..... There are all the other types!!!!! My mind boggles But soon I started to become familuar with them. When I started to see all the differences I am now starting to form an oppinion of what I like myself and the differnt characterists different horses throw.
I absolutly love Crabbet Arabians! But not all are how I like to see them. I know what I like but can't always find them
Recently I've seen some beautiful Russian horses and I think there are some fantastic Russian/Crabbet Arabians. I haven't seen any Egyptian Arabians 'YET' that have made me hold my breath, I'm not saying there won't be any just that I haven't seen one yet....So I'm greeen and growing to
I had to come back to this to edit!! See my ignorance on the different breeds I've just been told Wizzy's stallion is Eygptian and he DID make me hold my breath when I saw him I expect there will be others when I see then toI'll live and learn if I'm lucky |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 10 Feb 2006 8:06:15 PM |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 8:59:01 PM
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Looks I best get to the bookshop then!
Thanks for all the replies. I've had Arabs for years on & off, but as I'm not into breeding or showing, bloodlines have never been important to me. Now I am tentatively looking for a new horse, and been using All Breeds Pedigree to look up the ancestry of ones I'm interested in, and when I see all the names I want to know what "country" they represent (I know it doesn't quite work like that, just seemed the easiest way to explain!)
My current horse sparked my interest in bloodlines as she is Spanish/Egyptian, and it is a fantastic mix, something I'm hoping to replicate with my next horse. I quite fancy a Spanish/Crabbet, although Wizzy has turned me into a Russian fan too!! Ah, decisions decisions.
At the end of the day though, I guess it really comes down to the individual horse, but discovering their ancestry is just so fascinating. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 9:11:31 PM
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| Hmmmm! I know what you mean!! Knights Arabians have bred a lovely filly from Wizzy's stallion and if I win the lottery..... |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 10:52:29 PM
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If you want just one good book with background on all the main bloodlines, it has to be Gladys Brown Edwards "War Horse to Show Horse". Yes, it stops short of today's 'big names' since GBE died some time ago now, but it is not just really comprehensive for all the major horses of the past, it's actually a good read as well since GBE knew many of the American horses and their owners too and you get a real sense of their personalities. I think it's a good contender to be the 'desert island' book on Arabs, LOL! The only drawback is the photos are not well reproduced.
Keren |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 09:14:46 AM
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Hi Moonfruit et al,
With all the crossing of lines these days and which all the major breeders round the world have done for a long time, it has become very difficult to say what is a Crabbet looking horse or Russian, Egyptian or Polish or etcetera one . And just because a foreign horse has been used in a certain country, it then automatically takes on that country's definition?
IMO, what is useful is to know what horses are in the background of the horse you are looking at. Have they bred on?
So ...... you go and see a horse for sale - do you like it immediately, does it 'grab your heart'? Then if you have enough pedigree knowledge behind you, you will be able to decide whether to buy or not. I feel there is no point whatsoever in buying a horse just because of the pedigree on a bit of paper - you have to actually like the horse as it's you that will be living with and seeing it daily!!
Jane
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 1:03:34 PM
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Moonfruit - I started looking into Shah's background because I was just curious to see where his looks/temperament etc came from and it's a fascinating journey (not finished by far). Once you have done the allbreedspedigree search I suggest trawling through the 50 page+ thread in the quiz section here, it's got some great photos and stories of past horses and I've learnt lots about some of Shah's past from that.
It's a real aha experience when you come across those horses where you recognise the face, the body, the temperament, the vices... and it's certainly helped me understand him better. I'm now a great fan of the Crabbet/Russian combination (you do get biased after a while, but it's all down to personal taste).
T |
West Sussex |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 6:38:21 PM
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Jane, you are right of course. I'm a bit of a 'gut instinct' person anyway, and no doubt will fall in love with a special horse regardless of breeding. Even more so given that I am interested in the horse as ridden partner for myself, and not as a high performance, show or breeding animal.
But, from what little I've learned about breeding, I think there are quite dominant strains in certain lines, and things like temperament which is often inherited (& of the utmost importance to me), so it would be really useful for me to look up a bit of background info as it may hold clues to the future.
As Shah points out, there is a bit of bias involved - us one-horsers have chosen a particular horse because it suits us, so it stands to reason we would look at it's lineage & wonder if another horse of similar breeding may be equally suitable. To this end, I am in love with the Spanish Arabs, as well as Crabbet, hence wanting the mix, but at the end of day, I don't care how a horse is bred if I love it & we make a good team! |
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erica giles
Gold Member
United Kingdom
767 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 8:29:39 PM
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I am fascinated by the different strains of Arabs, and read all I can. One of my Mares is I think almost pure Crabbet (though would love to be sure) the other is half Russian half Polish.
Although both beautiful they are very different to look at but both have lovely natures. Where do I get the Crabbet Journal. But as mentioned I didnt buy for their pedigrees but for the type of horses they are. And regardless of their breeding I love them for what they are. How do I find out what percentage Crabbet my mare is ?? |
erica giles |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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erica giles
Gold Member
United Kingdom
767 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 10:32:30 PM
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| Bint Ramahni dam Ramahni and sire Ahkaan hope you can help thanks Erica |
erica giles |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
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erica giles
Gold Member
United Kingdom
767 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 10:51:40 PM
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| Sirima dam Siska and sire Narim grey an absolute beauty, bought her as a 4 year old from Phoenix Arabians and broke her. A truly kind and gentle creature, but Im not sure she knows she is a horse!!! |
erica giles |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 09:30:29 AM
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Hi moonfruit
My stallion is Spanish/Egyptian and although I mainly breed straight Egyptians he is gorgeous, it is a lovely cross. He is by Crusader out of my Spanish mare so just had to regiter him as Spanish Crusader. He is a big boy and has the most incredible big black Spanish eyes. He went white very early so that is the icing on the cake!
There are a few lovely straight Egyptians here now (I too didn't like SEs as the ones I was seeing were poor quality) and the Egyptian blood crossed with other lines often works very well. I don't know where in the country you are but you would be very welcome to come and see my horses any time and we can look at the lines and what they produce. I have my straight Spanish mare, a little English mare, some SEs and a couple of Spanish/Egyptian crosses. To me one of the main things to look for if you want a "friend" is good conformation and a lovely kind willing temperament. I am in Suffolk so if you are around here you would be very welcome to come and meet the gang! They will be rugged and probably muddy but you will be able to see them and I could whip a few rugs off to let you see the bodies.
Barbara |
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moonfruit
Silver Member
England
475 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 6:25:46 PM
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That's really kind, thanks Barbara. I'm in Sussex (Brighton) so not a million miles from you. I may pop over one day.
SE'd aren't generally my 'thing' either, but I think a lot of them are bred for pretty heads & show ring pizazz, not to work, and I like my Arabs with a bit more substance. Still, I'm willing to be proved wrong, so may well come & see your gang sometime. |
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Basilisk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
521 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 1:27:10 PM
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| Originally posted by moonfruit
That's really kind, thanks Barbara. I'm in Sussex (Brighton) so not a million miles from you. I may pop over one day.
SE'd aren't generally my 'thing' either, but I think a lot of them are bred for pretty heads & show ring pizazz, not to work, and I like my Arabs with a bit more substance. Still, I'm willing to be proved wrong, so may well come & see your gang sometime.
It depends which Egyptian lines you look at!
Ironically, after WWII, Egyptian Arabs were bred by the state to produce working horses for the ordinary people of Egypt, as well as racehorses. It wasn't until they reached America that a *few* breeders started the silly cult of the "living treasure" in which looks were all. If you do a bit of research into the pedigrees, and find horses that trace to those imported to the US by Henry Babson and Richard Pritzlaff, for example, these are definite "doing" lines. And here in the UK we had The Shah, Kais I EAO, Kheiralla, Saab, and Marawan EAO, all straight Egyptian who sired some very solid performance horses (a Kheiralla son won the 2003 AHS Marathon, and both The Shah and Marawan sired very useful racehorses).
A note about AllBreeds: the pedigrees aren't always 100% correct, as anyone can enter them: there is no "authority" who checks them for accuracy.
Keren |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 2:46:34 PM
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| So right Keren, I understand that Marawan was first seen at the Egyptian Agricultural Organisation stud in Egypt, he was shown to the visitors by young, shoeless boys and was loose jumped over five-feet high jumps and was subsequently ridden astride and side-saddle in England. Sounds like a good performer to me. |
Roseanne |
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