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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 6:30:10 PM
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Next year I plan on licensing a young colt I have, currently he's 26 months old. He's chestnut with no white, except for a little flaxen in his mane and a very tiny bit of roaning. He's not very big, I measured him the other week at 14.3 exactly, has a great topline and neck, has a reasonably attractive head and his movement is adequate (long striding daisy-cutter rather than being a flamboyant high-stepper). He hasn't been shown as so far he has been rather immature. He is well bred and so far as I know is the only son of his sire in the country.
In his first breeding season should I :-
1) Not stand him at public stud until he has foals on the ground which can be seen and allow his potential as a sire to be properly assesed?
2) Stand him at a low fee (or even free of charge) to just a handful of mares given that he is an unknown quantity as a sire?
3) Stand him at a higher fee and let the cost plus geographical location keep down the number of perspective "partners"?
Your thoughts please 
Mike
2)
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 7:04:25 PM
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Sorry to be a wet blanket Mike but what makes you think ANYONE is going to bring their mares to this colt?
No.1 What is it that is likely to be attractive about this colt to mare owners?OK he is the only son of his father - what are his father's achievements?
No.2 He is unproven - are you sure he's fertile?Just coz he swings it out to the four winds proves nothing.OK it's unlikely he's infertile but that will not attract mare owners.
No.3.What I would do is try him on a couple of my own mares when he is MINIMUM 4 years old(I'd like to see what he's capable of as a saddle horse first - and as an in hand horse 2nd) then,having proven him as both a show horse AND a saddled horse offer him at stud.
What makes you think anyone is going to call you about him as a stud without having first gone thru the above steps?
KEEPING DOWN the partners?Happy dreams my dear. |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 7:22:41 PM
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Cass, Thanks for your thoughts, I should have mentioned that I intend to use this horse at 4 not as a three year old. I got interupted whilst posting & missed that bit out, and he will be used under saddle once he's old enough. The sire has produced a world champion and several very useful performance horses in the US. Option 3 was "tongue in cheek" as there are very very few sires with mare owners "beating a path to the door" these days!!
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 7:28:01 PM
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| Don't mean to Rottweiller you Mike - took the question as it came... |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 7:32:45 PM
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Cass, I appreciate an honest answer to an honest qustion There is far too much BS and hype around these days If the question was poorly phrased then its my fault, not yours
Mike
(Pretending to bandage the affected leg )
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348 Posts |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 8:52:48 PM
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Geographically you are on a loser, and probably so are a lot of mare owners who simply could not travel even if he was free.
Last summer I shifted 7 from your neck of the woods to the north west, in a one (stallion) two (mares) and four (mares plus one foal). It was a living nightmare. However, the cry I have heard from other breeders up there is they don't have the choice of decent stallions, as so much local stock is related.
From what I gather, a stud fee has to reflect your vets bill / loss of value / increased insurance premium if the mare is a bit sharp and hammers your stallion. People rarely value what they do not have to pay for. On the other hand you would be daft to turn away a top class mare that is proven winner producer and could build his reputaion, even if you did it as a freeby.
Have you thought of anyone you could trust further south who could stand him for you for a couple of months, after he has got a home mare in foal?
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 8:56:05 PM
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Dare i ask Mike,
what do you WANT to do??
suyen. |
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 9:06:36 PM
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| Sod the email mess around - I'm feeling brave tonight - what I 'mailed you Mike was that if I'd REALLY gone for you , you'd need a prosthesis.... |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 9:45:14 PM
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Pat, The geography really is a killer, so I'm not averse to the idea of sending him down south for a few months. I do have a couple of mares that I could use him on first and both are far more flamboyant than the colt in the trotting department too
The local breeders may be complaining about the lack of choice but with a few exceptions they seem only interested in the bloodlines they already have. Whilst in fairness to them I should point out that I haven't done any advertising or anything until very recently, I can count the number of visiting local arabian folk over the last 10 years on one hand.
He has a nice sweet nature which I don't want to spoil by using him before he is mentally mature enough. His only fault is that he's a bit of an escape artist, I got up the other week to find him trying to climb onto the back seat of my car!
Cass, they do say that you can still feel limbs that have been amputated....is that why I keep falling over I wonder?
Mike
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 9:51:42 PM
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| One builds a mental picture of a person from what they write - right now Mike ,excess alcohol is the reason from your lack of equilibrium and male menopause could explain the (obviously if the horse can get in) convertible car...LOL Cass |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 9:59:15 PM
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Close but no cigar as the car is a coupe but sadly not a convertable, you were sooooo close too
Mike
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 10:12:27 PM
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| In which regard?And HOW does the colt manage the seat lever to get into the back seat? |
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 10:15:53 PM
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using his tongue of course..............
isnt it a pity we cant have a chat room for allof us nut-cases??? shame the concept of libel was ever invented!
suyen. |
Edited by - suyents on 08 Sep 2003 10:18:07 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 10:30:05 PM
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He seems to be able to manage anything that a human can do with one hand. Opening the car door & flipping the front seat would be childs play, after removing the grill (tied on with rope) on the top of his stable door to prevent him from getting at the clip on the door bolt which was there to stop him from getting out. The clip (off a leadrope) has since been replaced by a nut & bolt which needs two hands and has so far defeated him
Mike
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 10:39:02 PM
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Do we all have a Houdini? Aiesha managed to let herself out of her stable, which due to the bolt arrangement had to be pushed inwards to loosen it. Her rug was half way up the field with all fastenings shut.
I blamed kids until we took her in a trailer with rug on, which was in a neat pile on the floor, fully fastened at the end of the journey. We didn't see her move a muscle all the way., and she was relaxed eating her haynet. |
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348 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 10:45:35 PM
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Just wait for winter when you can't feel your hands and it defeats u too...
Those kinda colts are such fun - no I'm not being sarcastic!Bet he watches you when you're undoing it to get an idea of how it's done?The thing that cracks me up is how they never try it while you're watching.It's specially so you look a fool when you tell your friends and when you show them exhibit one he's a normal numbnut.They close the front gate after themselves and the bugger has let himself into the house,helped himself to a beer from the fridge and is feet up in front of the tele having selected Channel 4 racing which he's watching with a "get on with it then -mugs" air.... |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 10:24:49 AM
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Mike, I would cover your own mares and see what he produces. Then if you are pleased with the results and would like him to be used then send him to someone you can trust to stand him at stud to a limited number of mares for one season(in a more accessible area).
Then, if those foals are pleasing then more people will be willing to travel to scotland to use your boy - after all people send mares abroad to be covered.
Also, as he has nice egyptian bloodlines that are rare the demand for him in 2 or 3 years time may be more because all the egyptian youngsters that are around at the moment will be coming of a breeding age. If egyptian breeding does become popular in this country like it is in Germany then your boy stands a chance, but while people are just using Egyptian stallions merely to breed show horses or because they are just fashionable or standing in the UK for just a year (nothing at all wrong with this BTW) then things will be different for you (and your boy) - I am writing this in a rush but I am pretty sure you know what i mean!
Good luck with him, can you post a photo?
Michelle
IIsis Arabians |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 10:36:17 AM
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I think you can offer your colt at 'public' stud, as soon as he is licensed.....make sure you advertise him well and don't put a set fee in until you see if you have any response!!
I am in the same boat Mike, I have a colt who I happen to like, and am happy to cover two of my mares with him.......if I wasn't happy to cover my own mares with him, he would be gelded by now!......so on that basis I will offer him at stud, but am realistic to know that mare owners will not beat a road to my stables!!....and I really don't care!......at least I know my mares are good, same as yours....so use them with him, and get some good foals on the ground, promote them...then see if mare owners come forth?
I am all for gelding, but sometimes I think we can all be a bit too hasty?.....
having said that, I rarely sell a colt, I normally geld before selling on.
Good luck with your's, let's have a picture of him on forum?
Sue |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 10:46:57 AM
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Sue are you talking about a different colt to the one in your picture?
I must say I think when he comes of age he will be very popular! I myself have not seen any male by his sire that comes anywhere near yours.
Michelle
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 11:24:32 AM
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Thanks Michelle,
Yes it is him.....but as the sire is still available at stud, I always think mare owners will use the father, not the son.
Wonder what others think?
Mike, we are waiting for your photo!!
Sue
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 12:09:31 PM
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Sue, I think that I am inclined to agree with you as regards using the sire before a son when the sire is still available. Having said that the son could have something the sire lacks or be a better match physically for the mare so shouldn't automatically be discounted just because his sire could also be used.
My breeding plans for next year are already set so I won't have a mare to breed him to unless the mare I had inseminated last week happens to have concieved If so I will breed her to him late next year. If he seems to be mature enough to handle breeding next year then perhaps a little advertising might be in order though I would prefer to have a foal or two on the ground first.
As requested a picture (not great as I am rather photographically challenged )
Mike
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 12:26:30 PM
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He looks as though he has HUGE eyes, how lucky are you.
Lovely neck and throatlatch, I like his body too.
Definately the 'in' colour at the moment!
If you think of the stallions used as two year olds......Psynergy, Vodifon Kossak, just two that I know, they seem to cope well with covering, and in the case of Vodi, (Cranliegh Studs) he looks a million dollars! He has coped very well and covered quite a few mares.
I think we worry too much what anyone else will think?
My colt will end up covering two mares as a two year old, that's of course, as Cass so rightly say's, he is fertile? he certainly has the idea already!!!.......then hopefully, as a three year old he can be 'at stud'
He will however, be shown in-hand, and later be broken to ride.....so lots to cope with!!...we will 'play it by ear', and do our best, to ensure he is enjoying it all!
A full life........just how it should be.
Sue |
Edited by - SueB on 09 Sep 2003 1:22:52 PM |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 1:38:58 PM
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Sue, you really think that? I wonder how many people used Esta when he was standing at Silverdale with his sire Ibn Estasha??
Personally, I think your colt is better than his sire.
I am quite familiar with this bloodline. When I was a very impressionable 12/13 year old I fell in love with both Ibn Estasha and Esta Espashan. They were both the snow white fairy tale stallions who were famous as sires and in the showring AND they stood at double R, anyone who had the back 5 pages of the Arab Journal had the best horses! (I was 12!). Anyway, I got myself a nice little Ibn Estasha colt three years later.... so I thought! he was very pretty but as he and I grew I started to realise that he was actually one of the worst put together horses I had ever seen (he was also a psycho) so I soon backed him and gelded him to sell.
Ever since then I have looked at this family with interest and I honestly (now don't take this the wrong way) believe that out of all the foals these two horses have sired between them only a very small percentage are actually better than themselves. This small percentage, IME, go on to produce a lot of really nice stock. Just think of Khidar. He is beautiful, one of my favourite stallions yet he has two lines to Ibn Estasha. I have spoken to people in Europe who won't consider using him because he has two lines to this stallion. I think this is very harsh although I wouldn't use him on anything that already has Ibn Estasha blood. The stallion AS Natsir Apal has won loads this year - he has that typical Ibn Estasha firey personality and is very flashy but stood up you can see those typical Ibn Estasha faults (which is probably why he is kept so heavy). He is one of the better ones and Emma Maxwell has been showing a nice gelding by him this year, I wondered why it had been gelded - although at one show that was showing signs of being a bit of a bugger like some males of this family.
Sorry, it sounds like I have just sat here and totally slagged off your horses family but what I am trying to say is that when my friends and I saw your colt we really liked him and were really surprised that he is by Esta Espashan but seems to have managed to inherit all the gorgeous parts of his sire (which many do) but is the only horse that I have noticed NOT to inherit the bad points.
I really do think he is gorgeous and would use him over his sire any day.
I don't want people to feel that I am against this bloodline etc because I am not, it's just that IMO you have to be really careful because if you get to much of it, it can really churn out some wrong'uns!
Michelle
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