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Slave 2 Magic
Gold Member
 England
1023 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 1:34:08 PM
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We went up to our local ice cream parlour this morning and happened to be there while a jersey cow was giving birth. It was a lovely sight but rather depressing to discover that it was a bull calf and would be shot. They only keep the female calves as the bulls are worth nothing. 
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West Yorkshire
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 2:10:00 PM
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Its criminal isn't it, such a shame that his life is worth so little.
The reason his life is worth so little is because the British don't eat veal (I can't bring myself to eat it). The very least they could do would be to rear him BRITISH style for veal (I don't even eat lamb!!) but there is ony a very small market in the UK.
I have to say that I would rather he be shot soon after birth in this country harsh as that may sound, then shipped to Europe to be raised in a crate.
I used to be dead against calf veal production until I saw a programme about the differences between Europeon and British veal. I have nothing against Brish veal now. |
    
Hampshire |
Edited by - Vera on 17 Apr 2009 2:15:41 PM |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 2:36:30 PM
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Sick isnt it, as if a life is worth nothing at all At least he wasnt destined to be a veal calf. When i learnt that veal is a by product of the dairy industry i stopped buying and drinking milk. I am supprised they were so truthful about it.
If you do a google search about the life of a dairy cow you would be shocked how they are treated
Michelle |
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Mad arab rider
Silver Member
England
483 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 3:03:09 PM
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I don't like the idea of bull calves being shot at birth, but like vera says, better that than being shipped abroad to spend what little life they have shut up in a crate. Personally I like veal, as long as its British, but don't buy it very often cos it's so expensive and not easy to get hold of.
Cherie |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 4:21:19 PM
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Yes, I would only eat British veal (but as I eat so little meat I'll probably never eat it). A farmer friend let me see his veal calves and they were happy - bouncing around the barn and playing/interacting with each other. He always takes his stock to the abbatoir personally and makes sure they're well treated.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 8:10:30 PM
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How awful life is supposed to be the most precious gift given, why do we humans think we have the right to take any living creatures life, I find it all so heartbreaking, no wonder the world is in such a sad state |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2009 : 09:06:42 AM
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| And did you still enjoy your dairy ice cream? That calf's death and his mother's loss of him is the cost of humans drinking cows' milk. Even when the calves aren't killed immediately---which is a far better fate than a veal crate in my opinion, but sums up the value of life in this industry--the mothers have to cope over and over again with their calves being taken away from them within a couple of days. Everyone here would feel compassion for a mare who lost her foal at 2 or 3 days old and cows suffer as much. I could go on about the dairy industry all day, but instead will suggest you try Swedish Glace---a non dairy alternative to ice cream, and now available in a lot of mainstream supermarkets. Absolutely delicious and no cruelty involved---it is possible to eat deliciously and enjoyably with a clear conscience. |
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Slave 2 Magic
Gold Member
England
1023 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2009 : 11:54:02 AM
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| Actually, no I didn't. I had a piece of coffee cake but thank you for pointing out that I am actually aiding the destruction of these babies. It made me feel so much better! |
West Yorkshire
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2009 : 11:58:35 AM
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I didn't mean it in a nasty way---so many people consume dairy products without thinking of the misery to produce them and I was just trying to point out that it is possible to enjoy ice cream etc. without contributing to that misery |
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applause
Bronze Member
England
134 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 10:06:33 AM
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| I have to say that being farmers ourselves we have a suckler herd and our bull calves are worth much more t us than the heiffers. We actaully went to the market with sheep at the end of last year with the intention of buying some freisian bull calves to rear but i have to say we couldn't afford them! So this would indicate to me that somebody wants them! We also baord freisians for another farmer and they rear all their bull calves to 30 months so we are not all tarred with the same brush. |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 11:54:15 AM
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I agree applause, not all farmers should be tarred with the same brush. Sadly, some breeds of bull calves will be put down soon after birth, purely because they don't grow on to make good beef. My FIL has always had a herd of Ayreshires, they are wonderful dairy cows but take a long time to mature into good 'beef'. Bearing in mind that due to 'mad cow disease', beef cattle have to be slaughtered before they are 30 months old, hence the reason that slow maturing male calves are destroyed, the females will go on to be dairly cows. It broke my FIL's heart to have to destroy newborn male calfs, but then they fed the local rescued large cat's (yes, some people think that large cats like leopards, cheetahs make good pets and then have to be rescued, and this centre is not open to the public so no funds to feed the cats).
I know this will upset many vegetarians/vegans - but it is a sad fact of life, and not all dairy/beef cattle are treated badly.
I am proud to be a farmer, and I am proud of the way our cattle are kept, I am also proud of the sheep, pigs and chickens. While they are alive they have a wonderful life - freedom to roam, plenty to eat and they are 'managed' by experienced people.
While the all-knowing Government are happy to keep changing the 'goal posts', livestock will suffer, but not when a 'responsible' farmer is involved. |
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Alex1605
Silver Member
England
290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 4:07:02 PM
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The OTMS has finished - cattle over 48 months can now be used for human consumption. Hence the price of Cull cows has recently gone through the roof.
Unfortunately Jersey bull calves will not be that finanically viable to rear as a beef animal - the breed charateristic is to produce high fat milk not muscle at maturity.
Personally, I hate the way that we waste all feed products - We stick to sell by dates, buy ready made meals and want value for money which isn't so bad when it's grain or such like, but when a living creature is farmed and slaughtered just to end up in the bin it makes me so mad!
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bexr
Gold Member
England
818 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2009 : 11:21:40 AM
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| Our local farmer only breds a small number of his best cows pure, the rest he crosses with a beef bull. ALL his bull calfs are reared on the farm, not for veal, but fattened the same way, and sold at our local farmers market. |
Bex |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2009 : 11:40:13 AM
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Bexr...refreshing to know that there are Farmers out there that do have consideration and care for the animals which they breed for the food chain. Also proof that bull calves from Jersey cows, can be reared for beef (even if albeit at a much lesser income) that the normal `beef` bull calves.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 2:31:46 PM
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Many a night I have been kept awake by the heart wrenching sound of Dairy Cows wandering around the neighbouring field calling and calling for their 'babies'.
They do this ALL night for days and are obviously very distressed.
I take your point though Zan, by the morning when I make my tea (with milk) I am ashamed to say that I don't even make the connection. You have made me think. |
   
Louise, Warwickshire |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 4:04:54 PM
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Montikka,
I can imagine the sound of those cows and it breaks my heart, can you imagine how desperately the babies want their Mums. I never made the connection myself till i was 30 years old, i just thought cows produced milk constantly I used to drink a pint of milk every day and tons of cheese, now i love soya milk just as much and i now know i am lactose intolerant as a stomach problem i had for years has now gone
Michelle |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 6:46:07 PM
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The company that makes Swedish Glace provides "innovative ingredients" ie dairy proteins as a replacement for egg powder and dairy and milk products as a replacement for milk powder.
Maybe not so ethical after all? |
   www.eviepeel.com    |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 7:40:26 PM
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| Originally posted by templars
The company that makes Swedish Glace provides "innovative ingredients" ie dairy proteins as a replacement for egg powder and dairy and milk products as a replacement for milk powder.
Maybe not so ethical after all?
Sorry--not quite sure what point you are making. There are certainly no dairy products in Swedish Glace and it is certainly delicious. I don't know what else the company might make, but, as a vegan, if I only limited myself to buying from companies that didn't make anything at all that I wouldn't eat, I reckon I would land up eating very little, if anythingE.g. I eat(vegan)dark chocolate made by companies that also make milk chocolate. I try to eat as ethically as I can across the board, but the bottom line is I don't consume any animal products,or any products tested on animals, so I know no animal was harmed for me. Oh--and I care about humans too and buy Fair Trade stuff whenever possible
Nothing's perfect in an imperfect world, but I try, which I think is better than shutting my eyes to unpleasant truths and thinking there is no point in doing anything.
Thank you Montikka---I like to make people think |
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Edited by - Zan on 26 Apr 2009 09:10:04 AM |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 08:42:22 AM
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I agree Zan it would be impossible to live if you never bought from companies that also sold animal products. I buy Green and Blacks chocolate even though they also sell milk chocolate and i think they are owned by Cadburys. It depends on the company, i wont buy anything by Nestle even though they sell some foods suitable for vegans because they are an unethical company. Also i dont buy Marmite and Pot noddles which are vegan becuase they are made by Unileiver who are a BAD company.
I only buy products not tested on animals, Original source is vegan society approved and is not tested on animals but when you look on the back they are owned by Cussons who test their other products on animals
Its a minefield trying to do the right thing!
Michelle |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 07:54:58 AM
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So what you are saying is that there is really no ethics in the commercial world and companies will manufacture products to meet the widest possible target audience, and taken totally opposing sides just to make a dollar.
Isn't that what you should be tackling instead of continually banging on about farmers?
Please help me out with a totally hypothetical situation: if by some magic, a law was passed which meant no more dairy or meat products, how would you phase that in - logistically. Not an antagonistic question but a very real one from a farming family. How would you feed people? What would happen to the global rural economy? What would happen to the animals released from farming? What would happen to the land management? What would happen to the water supplies?
I accept that you and I will never see eye to eye on this but I do listen to other sides and arguments and I do think about things. That's why I'm asking these questions - what would the end state be if the world went vegan or vegetarian? How would you feed people and animals on such a large scale, wouldn't it need much more arable based farming than exists at the moment and if it did, does the climate support the growing of crops in sufficient quantities to feed cities? Would urban areas have to be reduced to accommodate more arable farming land?
Honestly, this isn't being nasty, I am genuinely curious.
We're in the process of changing our farming culture to be more perma-culture which is working more in harmony with the seasons and the natural landscape. That will result in an initial drop in output - quite a considerable drop. Enough to feed us and provide fuel with very little surplus. It was whilst I was researching this and coming up with the plans and schedules for the transition, that I thought a lot about non dairy/meat production and whilst I can see it working in isolated areas with suitable environments and conditions, I can't see it being able to sustain a world economy. |
www.eviepeel.com |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 09:19:30 AM
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There are exceptions, and of course I support them, but, generally speaking,of course there are no ethics in the commercial world, or very little---that is the essence of commercialism. Even when companies start off ethically, like the Body Shop, or Green and Black's they tend to be bought over by the multi-nationals. I'm afraid that Multi-Nationalism is rather too big an issue for me to tackle single handed, but, like Ghaleem, I do live my life as best I can by avoiding the "worst" companies like Nestles and Unilever. As for banging on about farmers--I don't agree that I do. Within farming there are huge differences and it is the horrors of factory farming that I bang on about--- with no apologies.
I can't help you out with your hypothetical situation because it is just that---hypothetical, and would never happen in one fell swoop, so the logistics of what to do with the animals would never be a problem. Feeding people without using animals would however be wonderful for the planet and peoples' health. It takes a lot less land to produce enough vegetable protein to feed directly to people, rather than using that land to feed animals to then produce protein to feed people. There would be far less land needed for food production, not more as you are implying.One example ( and there are many) is the desire for cheap burger beef in South America is responsible for huge tracts of the rain forest being clear felled and turned into unsustainable prairie which is doomed to become desert in the long term.
I think the way to go to sustain the population has got to be a return to eating less meat---as it was as recently as the 40s and 50s. The post war clamour for cheaper and cheaper meat has been a disaster for the welfare of food animals.It isn't necessary for human health to eat meat every day ( or at all), and anyone who wants to eat meat should regard it with respect.
There are plenty of arguments for the global benefits of Veganism, but to be honest, wonderful though that utopia would be to me, they had nothing to do with my decision to become vegan. I am vegan purely out of compassion for animals, and I really do try to live my life in a way that means no animal suffers or is harmed for me. |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 10:39:16 PM
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Hi Templars,
Zan has pretty much said it all for me but if you wanted to read more in November 2006 the United Nations produced a report on the full impact of the livestock sector on the environment and its direct impacts on problems such as land degradation, climate change, air pollution, water shortage and water pollution, and loss of biodiversity. It was called Livestock's Long Shadow and the results were shocking! Here is the link http://www.globalwarminghype.com/livestocks_long_shadow.pdf
Michelle
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