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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 7:11:02 PM
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Well, we got to watch the Grand National! 
Overall, it was very positive, and the general feeling of those of us who stuck it out to the end (6.30pm!!) was that it had been worth while going, and that things were moving forward.
On the interminable Anglo situation, the state of play at the moment is that DEFRA and the French Anglo Studbook have two completely different opinions: DEFRA says France is the 'mother studbook', France says not only is it *not* the mother studbook, but that, since the Anglo is an international breed like the Arab and TB, there *is* no such thing as a 'mother studbook'!!!! So, after all the time and energy wasted it may mean that we have to do NOTHING AT ALL, and simply carry on as we are!*
Opinion was sought on whether or not to continuing having the accounts audited (this is no longer compulsory for us), and whether or not to continue with the insurance - general feeling was that both are valuable, so should be continued.
There was much discussion on ways to promote the Anglo/PBA, with several interesting suggestions being made, so there is clearly a lot of enthusiasm in this area. Also, the question of the artificial pose was brought up, and it was confirmed that judges are being told to require horses to be presented naturally.
HOYS costs were discussed: fund-raising activities are being planned to support our classes once the present sponsorship deal expires.
A vote was taken on whether to (temporarily if desired) abolish the post of Honorary President: the majority were in favour, but a quorum was not obtained, so the motin was not passed, and the post remains 'in limbo' for the present.
Costs regarding entering breeding stock were raised; the requirement for a vet to complete the Mature Animal Identification Form will evidently be dropped, thus offering some savings to breeders.
That is a quick summary of the main points - no doubt others will fill in the gaps!
Keren |
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Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 7:30:43 PM
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Thanks Keren - I'm glad you found it positive.
Regarding removing the need to have the vet complete the MAI Form - it was agreed that it would be put to the SB&R committee to discuss. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 9:30:34 PM
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well heather please pass on this comment to them, EVERY time without fail the various vets that have come out to mine to do markings, (for welsh) have got it wrong .
Experienced breeders know their foals markings off by heart.
if in doubt ISSUE GUIDELINES on eg where on a cannon you sould say half, one third, two thirds etc.
Vets markings are a fiasco. |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 07:24:14 AM
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| I totally agree with you Pat. My vet ususally says help me with this as you know more than I do.!! |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 09:24:52 AM
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So if the post of Hon.President was abolished what would replace it? |
    
blue moon |
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Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 10:28:56 AM
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| The role of president wasn't abolished - the vote failed to obtain the 75% necessary for a special resolution. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 11:34:54 AM
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"On the interminable Anglo situation, the state of play at the moment is that DEFRA and the French Anglo Studbook have two completely different opinions: DEFRA says France is the 'mother studbook', France says not only is it *not* the mother studbook, but that, since the Anglo is an international breed like the Arab and TB, there *is* no such thing as a 'mother studbook'!!!! So, after all the time and energy wasted it may mean that we have to do NOTHING AT ALL, and simply carry on as we are".....POSTED BY MinHe
Finally, it is acknowledged and confirmed, that Pure Arab, Anglo Arab and Thoroughbreds are an International breed, and it appears France denies owness of the Anglo Arab `Mother` stud book, then the British can lay claim for same, as DEFRA insists such a book exists?? As it stands, ARAB STUD BOOK, ANGLO ARAB STUD BOOK and GSB are for the entry of fully authenticated parentage tested pedigree horses ONLY
Weatherbys have the NTB register for part bred Thoroughbreds, Arab Horse Society have the Part Bred Arab Register which is self explanatory. So with regard to recording EU and French definition for A.A.sec.11, if brought into this Country, there is no reason why they cannot be registered in our appropriate Part Bred Arab Register!! It is quite possible that Part Bred Anglo Arabs can be contained in a separate section of the Part Bred Arab Register. Such, will clearly define, to potential Purchasers and Breeders, exactly the definition of the animal.
I am sick and fed up with the AHS whoever, trying to FORCE us into allowing AA11`s into the Anglo Arab Stud Book!!!!!
WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE FORCED INTO ALLOWING OUR ANGLO ARAB STUD BOOK TO BE INFILTRATED BY NONE PEDIGREE HORSES....NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!!!!!! Four Members` votes on the subject, over the last fifteen years, have all resulted in a "NO" vote
The rest of the World, can call their Part Bred Horses, whatever they like. However, if they wish to record same in the British Registers, they have to accept the British definition!! CONTINENTAL PART BREDS ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR ENTRY INTO BRITISH STUD BOOKS!!! We have part Bred Registers for that purpose.
I make no apology for keep `banging` on about this subject and I trust that those Members whom this issue does not affect, continue to support the previous four "No" votes on this `interminable` subject. Remember....it could happen to the Pure Arab Stud Book.....the Hispano Arab may well be seeking entry in AHSB in the future!!! who is to say not so!! when boosting the AHS coffers appears to be the main aim of the Society IMO, Members needs, have become a secondary consideration.
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 11:56:07 AM
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Well explained Babs. That said, why do we need to keep on about it? Because we ( the No voters) will not be bullied by those who WILL NOT accept the majority vote and let it go.
Jean |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:03:34 PM
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Having read the above, I think that there needs to be some clarification on the confusion of the Anglo Arabs.
Firstly, we have had absolute written confirmation from DEFRA that France is the Mother Stud Book of the Anglo Arab. As far as them being an international breed, that is not in dispute. The Mother Stud Book of the Thoroughbred is held by Weatherbys U.K. and the Mother Stud Book for the Pure bred Arab is held by WAHO. Both are classed as international breeds.
As far as we know France has not denied being the Mother Stud Book, this was a conversation between two people. In fact if you were to look on the E.U. website, it states quite plainly that France is the Mother Stud Book for the Anglo Arab, which includes the four sections of Anglo Arabs.
There is no legal requirement for us to follow France whatsoever, unless we become a daughter stud book. What Lyn and I have suggested is, to accommodate the French definition, anyone importing the Section 11 A/A could go in to the Part bred book, under a separate heading, possibly Part-bred Anglo, and likewise for those horses bred in this country, who eventually are exported. There should be no problem with the French accepting them providing they have been probably registered, which might mean that the Part bred register might have to be changed into a stud book. This as yet is to be decided, hopefully this will be discussed in full at the next meeting of the Working Party.
This situation can not be allowed to continue, it has been ridiculously unfair to members that it has dragged on for so long, and this year must be the final time that this subject is brought up for discussion. A final decision must be reached, and the lid finally put on this box forever. |
Edited by - SueN on 08 Apr 2009 4:49:19 PM |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:11:02 PM
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Thanks for publicly clarifying that Sue. At least now we know the facts and can appreciate the progress the working party is making. It all seems quite straight-forward to me. Please keep us informed.
Jean
Welcome back, by the way |
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Edited by - weirton on 07 Apr 2009 12:12:45 PM |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:32:50 PM
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Thanks Jean,
Had a great time with the girls. You will be pleased to know that they had the worst weather ever, and out of the seventeen days, we only had five of sun, and when it rains in Dubai, everything floods. Oh, we also had sand storms!
On the bright side, a friend of mine who is assistant trainer to Rod Simpson won the Pure bred race on World Cup night. Great excitement all round! Although I have to admit that most of the Pure bred race horses look incredibly like Section 11's! But who am I to question! |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 4:14:00 PM
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Thanks for the reply Heather but it does not answer the question .
What is proposed to take the place of the Hon.President.
This is a venerable office which should not be cast aside lightly |
blue moon |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 5:55:17 PM
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| Originally posted by alistair leslie
What is proposed to take the place of the Hon.President.
This is a venerable office which should not be cast aside lightly
There is nothing venerable about the title of Honorary President; it was only created a few years back after the-then postholder - the post being at that time one with considerable powers, as the holder was a full council member - abused the psoition and created considerable problems for the society and its membership. In fact, IIRC, there have only been 4 Hon Pres.
Having been an intimate friend of one of them (formerly a long-time council member, and one who could have achieved much if the role had not been stripped of any practical function), I know it was their experience that as a position it achieved NOTHING for the breed or the society whatsoever.
All it does is to require the expenditure of several thousand pounds from the postholder's pocket and waste a considerable amount of their time , with no benefit of any kind to anyone. Given that these resources could ires a be far better utilised by the society elsewhere, it was this Hon President's opinion that the position should be scrapped as soon as possible.
Given that the post as it stands requires a bottomless purse and infinite spare time, the number of AHS members who are qualified to take on the role is very limited indeed - as demonstrated by the lack of nominations. This by itself shows that the post is not practicable, and that we need to find a much better alternative which WILL be of benefit to the breed and the membership.
That is why I voted to abolish the post *as currently defined*, in favour of developing a different one in which the skills of all AHS members make them potential candidates, rather than merely the possession a 'huge wad of wonga' and unlimited spare time. If that is all we ask, I'm sure that are lots of Columbian drug lords available for the job! (joke)
Keren |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 6:23:44 PM
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"This situation can not be allowed to continue, it has been ridiculously unfair to members that it has dragged on for so long, and this year must be the final time that this subject is brought up for discussion. A final decision must be reached, and the lid finally put on this box forever".........Posted by SueN
Agree Agree.....Enough is ENOUGH!! Members have been misled, lied to
and even bullied,in an endeavour to make us accept the French Anglo Arab definition, when it is now proved, WE DO NOT HAVE TO!!
That sorted, lets get on with the job of bringing this marathon to an end once and for ALL TIME. Anglo Arab Sec 11 (Part Bred Anglo Arabs) can be entered into Part Bred Arab Register (or Part Bred Stud Book)??
Babs
www.SunratAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 7:15:00 PM
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In reply to MinHe:
The source of the trouble has not under any circumstances been the fault of DEFRA. Over the last fifteen years, we have written countless letters to the Society concening this subject, but it has only been in the past year that we have seriously been researching the Anglo situation, and one of the relevant facts has been that at no time have DEFRA "twisted" the arm of the AHS to comply with France.
The numerous conversations we have had with DEFRA have been incredibly enlightening, and it is the European Commission that have France as the Mother Stud book for the Anglo Arab on their web site -not DEFRA. It has never been a legal obligation for us to follow anyone.
Unfortunately, no one has ever questioned any of the information given to members, to a higher authority, although members over the past fifteen years have sent numerous letters to the Society, questioning the information given.
Although the two individuals mentioned are high ranking officials, the conversation had was purely verbal. There is nothing in writing, so therefore this can only be said to be here say. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 7:57:20 PM
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Sue
I know I'm not an Anglo breeder and am fairly new to the arguments but your comments completely confirm the research that I did recently. DEFRA have never said France is the mother stud book - The European Commission said this based on the fact that France said they were the mother stud book.
The totally misleading part of all this is that someone published an article that said the AHS were legally compelled to change and used the example that our non compliance would be identified by DEFRA as part of our passport management system and DEFRA would report this to the European Commission and the AHS would not be recognised as a breed society and this would impact the pure bred stud book.
Whoever wrote that article wants shooting. Not only was it complete scare mongering but given what's been said here - WAHO is the mother stud book for pures and so the AHS couldn't lose its stud book!!!
Stuff and nonsense.
If my interpretation is right, then what this means for the UK is:
UK Pure = French Pure = UK Pure Stud Book
UK Anglo = French Anglo Arabe Part I = UK Anglo Arab Stud Book
UK Part Bred = French Anglo Arabe Part II = UK Part Bred Register (maybe soon to become a Stud Book in its own right)
Let's leave the Anglo breeders to get on with the magnificent job they have been doing for the past few decades - promoting this marvellous pedigree horse that carries a goodly percentage of Arabian blood and that proudly flies the flag for its Arabian heritage. (And which produces an above average number of Premium horses!!) |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 7:57:57 PM
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MinHe
I'd just like to take issue with the statement ****** has been trying to sort out the Anglo problem' as in fact he has been proposing in various articles to members that we adopt the French definition or we would be liable to legal action. This is now proven to be a false assumption. It appears there never was a problem
to sort out.
Jean |
Edited by - Lynda on 08 Apr 2009 2:00:46 PM |
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SueN
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 8:12:13 PM
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To clarify Templars information:
UK Pure = French Pure = UK Pure Stud Book
UK Anglo = French Anglo Section 1 a) must contain 25% and over.
French Anglo Section 1 b (de compliment) under 25%
UK Part bred could be French Anglo Section 11 a) if they carry 25% or more Arab blood. Under this % they become Anglo Section 11 b) (de compliment). Bearing in mind that the fifth generation may contain any other blood.
Pour yourself a glass of wine to digest that one!
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Edited by - SueN on 07 Apr 2009 8:19:51 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 8:22:16 PM
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Agree, Agree Jean.......it appears the only problem which has been threatening the Anglo Arab Members/Breeders.....for the last 15 years...has been total misrepresentation of the FACTS by the more notable Council Members, who have time and again, as stated before, LIED to us. We vote these Council Members to Office to safeguard the interests of the Members......how can we ever believe a word they say in the future?? An apology is expected!!!
I do find it strange that the very Council Member, who has many times advised, we have no alternative but to accept the French definition and is pro the AAsec.11 insertion into our Anglo Arab Stud Book, is also actively part of the Working Party!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 08 Apr 2009 11:08:04 AM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 8:22:53 PM
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I get it Sue - thanks
my little table was a translation of French to English and you have kindly provided the English to French to make the information complete!
Think I've got my head round it. Thanks for explaining it in full detail. |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 8:38:51 PM
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| I think more than apology - free membership for at least 15 years.....and free foal registrations for all the studs affected (for the next 15 years) |
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Edited by - templars on 07 Apr 2009 8:39:19 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 9:51:41 PM
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Here Here, I second that Templars.........but somehow think....when pigs can fly!!
Hopefully, those that are guilty, will hold up their hands and offer an apology in writing to all the Members, for their underhandedness, which has caused considerable stress and threat to Anglo Arab Breeders
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 10:54:41 AM
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Steady Keren,maybe venerable should not apply to the recent system but you have to have a replacement in mind before you change it .
Just because we had a run of self interested people does not mean they are all like it .
Many people have filled the role honourably is all I am saying .
Last year I asked on hear if we thought the changes were beneficial.It seems not for the reasons you state .
I have long held the view that Malvern could be part of the "season" and having a dignified person as the figurehead is the starting point . |
blue moon |
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