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Crusaders Angel
Gold Member
 England
531 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 10:41:35 AM
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I knew Rio's good behaviour was just too good to last 
I've been walking him out in hand to get him used to the woods and roads etc and try and build up his back muscles before I start start riding him and up until the weekend he has been really well behaved for the majority of the time we are out.
When we turn for home he has just been growing at the front end, arching his neck and waggling his head from side to side. I've mainly ignored it, apart from to just give a little check on the leadrope and say "no, just walking" and then he has stopped and been given loads of praise and he has then gone back to just walking along on a loose leadrein and really chilled. Occaisionally he has let loose with both backlegs but seems to have a look behind and make sure no-one is there before letting rip 
This weekend it all got out of hand when he started with the usual head waggling but then followed it up by lauching off the backend and striking out with the front legs whilst doing a full on head wring  He was really worrying at the time, although thinking about it he was always well away from me and looking where I was and was only going to the end of the leadrope and not trying to pull away from me.
The worst bit was when he started doing it in circles around me and just not listening at all. It took ages to get back home and he was even doing it on the road in front of cars. Thankfully its a fairly quiet road on Sundays and we only have to go about 100 yards.
I nearly lost him again as we turned off the main road onto the small road that leads to the field but by the time we got near the field he had calmed down and was walking quickly but fairly sensibly.
I don't think I helped the situation as I didn't manage to keep very calm at all  and ended up yanking on the leadrope and yelling at him which released some of my adrenalin but increased his  I did manage to get grounded again but it was really hard and for a moment I did think about just letting him go, I think the F-word may have slipped out
Any advice as to how I can stop him from either doing it or what I should be doing to try and keep him under control. He was in an ordinary headcollar with a normal length leadrope because, as I said earlier, he has always been very respectful and never pulls.
Sorry its so long, congratulations for reading so far - grab yourself a chocolate as a reward 
Many thanks,
Lucy & Rio
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:07:58 AM
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Hi Lucy,
I'd avoid the road and get a Pressure halter.
We had a similar situation with a youngster who was very sweet and respectful until this spring (seems like Spring anyway).
She had a bit of an attitude change and even started to rear if she was taken away from her 'best friend'.
An excellent trainer came out with a pressure halter and the results have been REMARKABLE. My daughter has been using it for a week and has a changed horse.
Ordinary headcollars do not give enough control; with the pressure type, not only do they STOP running backwards/sideways/up in the air, but they are also much easier for YOU to turn the horse to face YOU and make them listen.
JMO - but I'd regain his respect where you have plenty of room to send him backwards if he pulls, before going back on the roads.
Good Luck!
Can I have my chocolate now?
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Louise, Warwickshire |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:16:36 AM
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Hi Lucy, this is an Arabian? if so arabians will tell you when they are not happy, something is wrong and he is trying to tell you! get his back looked at, also his teeth, step back and see if you can find out what he is telling you.
remember the arabian is highly intelligent and if something is wrong he cant speak to you , so you must listen to what he is TRYING to say, he is saying "mum I am not happy"
telling him off wont help, he is not just being bolshy. he really does have a problem. |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:24:32 AM
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I agree with Lyndi, he is telling you it's all way wrong.
I think he was fearful and you've taken him too far out of his comfort zone to the point of fear. Go back and do small steps increasing all time and establish yourself as the leader so that he feels safe that his leader is there when you take him out.
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:39:30 AM
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Completely agree with you Fee - he needs Leadership and to get confidence from you.
You don't say how old he is Lucy.
If you've ruled out back/teeth I'd still suspect that he may not see you as herd-leader! And, of course he may well have been 'out of his comfort zone' and that may have been what was making him unhappy; nevertheless, boundaries need to be pushed (slowly) to progress, so many horses Arab or not, naturally feel very insecure on their own.
For safety's sake he can't be leaping around on the roads.
Incidentally, with re-gaining respect with our mare, she was NEVER hit, No voices were raised, she just came to realise that to be with us was her best (and most secure) option.
Oh and she loves us all the more |
Louise, Warwickshire |
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Crusaders Angel
Gold Member
England
531 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 11:58:46 AM
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Thanks guys - cyber chocolate on its way 
I have quite a good rapport with him, he is very interactive with you and is usually very easy to read re: he moods etc and I don't get the feeling that he is doing it out of worry - he has the same look in his eye as when he is just about to sneak up behind my mum and nick her hat before running off and waving like a flag .
He only seems to mess about when we turn for home and really strides out from the gate and if we turn corners which don't head towards home he doesn't stop or hesitate but gives me a nuzzle on the hand sometimes and then sort of takes himself off down the path, if that makes sense. He is very bright and doesn't like to hang about when we are out, he will stop and wait at the road really patiently for the traffic but won't stand still if we stop and chat to someone. He seems better behaved on new routes and really seems to want to see what is round the next corner, it is only when we turn on to the only tracks that lead home that we have a problem. He behaves the same if he is with just me, with another person with us or another horse.
I probably wasn't very clear in my original posting but the head waggling has only been very mild previously, just like trying to get rid of fly, and this Sunday was the only time he has behaved that bad. It seems as though he is enjoying himself so much that it just bubbles over, a bit like a little kid at a funfair or something, and with a very gentle reminder he then gets himself under control, usually, but not on this occasion.
I will definitely get his teeth checked as I know he had a crown to lose when the dentist looked at him in September when he arrived. She also said that he had a couple of wolf teeth but I'm not sure how they would affect him when just wearing a headcollar.
I'll get my mum to give him a good work over (she's a Bowen Therapist)and see if I can find my pressure halter and try and do some work in the school before venturing out again.
I really do get the impression that it was all just down to the spring grass etc but will try and find out if there is any other cause. He is such a loving and qentle horse normally and he really did seem to be just showing off but he did worry me and I did lose my control so I probably frightened him and made him worse 
As you said Lyndi - arabs are really intelligent and he is my first arab youngster, my other arab came to me aged 12 and already knew how to get me trained
Lucy |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:04:07 PM
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Originally posted by MontikkaIncidentally, with re-gaining respect with our mare, she was NEVER hit, No voices were raised, she just came to realise that to be with us was her best (and most secure) option. Oh and she loves us all the more
Agreed! A horse should never be hit for anything let alone leadership! 
Do groundwork with him, get him to listen, focus and relax around you. You want to be alpha, watch the alpha horse, a good alpha is firm but fair, they get the horse to move when they want and where they want, they are friends and groom each other and they are consistent. When the horse attempts to check if the 'line' is still there (which horses will always do with their alpha and you as their human alpha) the alpha lets them know, 'Yep, nice try, but the line is still there!' The horse then feels safe, 'Phew!, good, just checking!'
Also, try not to let your horse circle you in fear, yes, allow them to move their feet when afraid, that's important, but not fearful circling, if in that situation try to get your back to something to stop them circling and get them out of that blind flight mode.
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
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Crusaders Angel
Gold Member
England
531 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:20:08 PM
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Montikka - he's four at the end of this month.
I bought him in September as being just backed and he was hacking out confidently on the roads and in the woods when he arrived with us. He was then turned away over the winter to grow on as he was very weedy and underdeveloped. He wasn't left though and was caught every day and handled, I've never hit him or shown him any aggression (until Sunday when I yelled at him) as he has never shown any towards anyone and has seemed to enjoy being at the bottom of the pecking order and being bossed about by the two oldies he is with. When handling him he seems to enjoy you telling him what to do and really responds to verbal praise, he seems to swell up and look really chuffed with himself.
When I've worked him in the school (not very often as I have to borrow one) he is always focused on me, and very responsive to small hand gestures etc, I know when he is feeling under pressure or unsure as he starts licking and chewing and as soon as I stop what ever I was doing then he give my hand a nuzzle and drops his head, I then go back to something that he enjoys doing or is good at and then finish the session.
I feel that the circling on Sunday was not out of fear but because that was as far as he could go on the end of the rope if that makes sense, as soon as he feels the pressure on his nose he stops and turns to look at you anyway and so that is what he was doing, allbeit at speed.
Thanks for you help and I'll try and put it into practice. I'm really annoyed that I let the moment get to me and didn't just take a deep breath and see the whole picture rather than just the bit that was worrying me. Still, you live and learn
Lucy |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:37:55 PM
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The grass is growing and the Magnesium will be low.
The head tossing I would say is an Arab thing. Mine do it around the field just for fun.
Personally yes get him checked out but I feel you will not find anything wrong.
He is still very young and this can be a baby thing.
I do not totally agree with lindilou saying he is telling you there is something wrong, what he is telling you he is feeling that spring is here.
Reprimand by all means but never hit him.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 12:44:38 PM
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Have emailed you Lucy but as I've said the head waggling is teenage rebellion. He's just testing the boundaries of his place in the herd. He wasn't unhappy - just being a typical youngster and trying to intimidate you so he can move up the herd structure. When Max explained it to me it made perfect sense. Ptraci has started doing it too - both to me and the other horses... who as one ignore her completely and are wholly unimpressed with her upstart ways. She remains at the bottom of the herd - poor thing!
Pressure headcollar, longer leadrope and keep doing the work in-hand. Re the moving of feet - you need to be in control of moving their feet. If you get Max's book the exercises in there show you about circling the horse round you, so you move their front feet/shoulders and also their back feet/haunches. If you can get control of this then you can use these exercises in times of stress (like on Sunday) by getting them to concentrate on moving their feet rather than being stupid. It breaks the cycle of adrenaline and flight mode and calms them down again.
Youngsters will always go through phases where they test the boundaries and don't feel bad about losing it for a few minutes - Rio won't hold it against you |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 2:01:04 PM
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Hi, I just wanted to add to the very good advice already received.
I have find that, with my mare, she starts waggling her head when she is being dominant and confident. This is all very well if she is still listening to me and is aware of me but when she starts turning her attention elsewhere that is when she is "checked". It sounds like he was getting ahead of you and starting to take over leadership.
As Fee said, not allowing him to circle you is very good advice. You want to interrupt the pattern and bring his energy down. If you stand with your back against a fence and ask him to do semi circles, he has to "think" about what he is doing and his natural instincts of flight, won't kick in so much and he will start to calm down.
I would definately encourage the use of a NH Halter (e.g nungar knots, parelli halter etc etc) and a 12ft rope. Gives you more space to be safe if legs go flying.
It sounds like you are very in tune with him and have a great partnership.
Good luck and hope that I havn't just repeated what has already been said....
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Crusaders Angel
Gold Member
England
531 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 2:54:57 PM
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Thanks Lisa
I think its definitely a bit of showing off, a bit of exuberance and a bit of dominance issue thrown together.
He is so much bigger and stronger than when I bought him, both physically and mentally. I just need to find some ways of bringing his focus back to me and placing myself as dominant leader, something I've not had to do with Angel.
I'm finding it harder to get that same level of understanding with Rio but its early days yet, I keep forgetting that I've had Angel for nearly 5 years.
Lucy |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 3:07:38 PM
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I can recommend a good book......
101 Horsemanship exercises by Rio Barrett
It shows you lots of exercises/games to play with your horse on line and then in the saddle, lots of pictures and diagrams with easy to follow instructions.
Great for giving you inspiration for keeping a youngsters attention....
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jillandlomond
Platinum Member
Scotland
3586 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 5:32:50 PM
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Hi Lucy,
My rising 4 year old is doing the exact same at the moment I'm with Pauline and Loosefur on this one....definately think it's just teenage rebellion and spring grass. He's all sugar & spice at the moment...when he's good he's very very good, and when he's bad he's HORRIBLE
I'll be backing him in the next few months, so that should keep him occupied |
    
Borders, Scotland |
Edited by - jillandlomond on 17 Mar 2009 5:34:03 PM |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 6:21:36 PM
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I have a feeling that it is illegal to lead a horse on the road in just a headcollar - they must wear a bridle. Put his bridle on and have a headcollar over the top so you've got both reins AND leadrope - or keep off the roads, especially while he is playing up. You do not want to get muddled up with a car or lose control on the road.
In the meantime I wish you good fortune in sorting out your problem. |
 Said the little eohippus, "I´m going to be a HORSE"  |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 6:28:04 PM
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Well I will have to bow to Pauline superior knowledge, on this one, as I have only been around arabians for about 50 years so what do I know ! MY horses waggle shake or circle their heads when they are not happy, ie; the routine has been changed, food is late, someone has separated them. they are anxious, all these things and NEVER when they are happy.
when I go away on holiday I often find on my return the mares have ringlets in their manes due to frustration as the girl that does them does not keep to my routine.
Also I sold a mare once and bought her back as the man said she was a head shaker! I knew something was wrong and sure enough when she and her baby got back the poor things were starving, she had been standing in the field circling her head in frustration , because the b......d had not been feeding her and she was on poor ground sharing with a lot of shetlands ! |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 6:55:29 PM
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It could well just be a mix of warmer weather, getting fit and feeling good! He's also at the age where like any adolescent he is pushing the boundaries to see what he can get away with. When you say he does it 'on the way home', are you coming back from a circular route, or are you turning round and coming back the same way you went out? If the latter, it could be a protest because he is enjoying himself and wants to go further and see more new stuff rather than go home - remember, Arabs are as nosey as hell, especially the boys! My Roupert *hates* turning round and will sulk all the way home, so I try to plan circular routes when I can
Keren |
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Malak
Silver Member
Panama
315 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 8:19:09 PM
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Hi Lucy,
would just like to say that it seems like you have a wonderful understanding relationship with your horse. Wonderful to read about how you are trying to understand him. And to me it seems the more you think about it the more the answers are coming from within, because you know your horse.
Most people who have a good relationship with their horse knows instantly if an unpredicted behaviour is due to pain and unhappiness, or pure naughtiness and excitement. Holding on to a horse who is kicking out, circling and running wild due to fear or pain is a very different experience as to that of holding on to a happy excited one!
My advice would be to have him checked if you are at all worried, and if all ok- increase his workload to get some of that energy out! |
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 8:31:53 PM
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Pauline, Loosfur and MinHe all confirm what I suspect here Lucy.
Spring grass/hormones/warm weather - he's feeling good.
You say he was a bit weedy last year - well now he's feeling good and you are being challenged.
The commonly held attitude that 'he's an Arab' doesn't wash with me - he's a horse - he want's a leader and he's vying with you.
I have been with horses since I was 10 (now 45) including retraining racehorses and showjumping a Cleveland Bay Stallion, amongst many other types - but I have chosen Arabs - as I love them - but I get fed up with people making excuses for them - yes they are intelligent - that's what I love about them - AND THAT is what makes it EASY with arabs.
So - you are at an advantage because you own an Arab. Take control.
Lucy - you are sensitive enough to want the best, so you will be fine - work WITH his intelligence - good luck x |
Louise, Warwickshire |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 9:17:45 PM
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Ah Lucy he's got Spring Fever, just like my little Mo man (who is 5). Full of the joys of spring .
Agree with lots of the advice here, be firm and don't get cross with him as it often makes them worse.
I really would be careful about the taking him out in a headcoller though. Check with your insurance company because you may not be covered. Many won't even accept Parelli type halters either, it must be a bridle. A 12 ft lead line is also an excellent idea and a pair of gloves! |
    
Hampshire |
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alison
Platinum Member
Wales
1810 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 1:09:01 PM
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Montikka, couldn't agree with you more great advice and yes he is just feeling his feet and testing his owner.
Ali |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 1:34:25 PM
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My two year old does the head waggle thing when he is being dominant, playful or excited! He has on occassion played up when being led on the road but i always carry a carrot stick with me to make sure he cant invade my personal space and so that when i check him with the lead rope i can keep his head straight with the carrot stick. By keeping his head straight his hindquarters cant move out into traffic and he cant get ahead of me to turn. I have to say that since he has got bigger i mostly only lead him out with another horse on the road just in case i did let go of him. He usually gets a bit more cocky at this time of year though Can you not do a loop so that he doesnt know when you have turned for home?
Michelle
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Edited by - GHALEEM on 18 Mar 2009 1:36:05 PM |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 1:44:03 PM
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Do you have an arena at your disposal? If I were you, and he's had some education already, I'd restart the long-reining process. Once you've got his attention and obedience long reining in the school, then you could go out - hopefully with someone at his head, to get him used to paying attention and behaving out of your yard.
Good luck! |
Roseanne |
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KittyB
Silver Member
United Kingdom
295 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 1:52:44 PM
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Does anyone have any suggestions about accustoming 2 year olds to the roads if we aren't allowed by law to use a headcollar? I don't want to bit my lad just yet, and maybe not even at all! I was under the impression that a hackamore or this type may be classed as a 'bridle' in law. Anyone?
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 2:28:18 PM
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Safety wise a rope head collar and a 12' rope is the best option. Be able to control the horses feet before you go out on the road and desensitizing them to many things first also helps. I really can never understand why people think by putting a bit in a horses mouth controls them, especially youngsters! A bit is not for stopping it's for refinement. The only thing in this case a bit would do would be to cause pain Everything you do 'to' a horse should be meaningful and have a positive effect. Predator type behavior will result in a fearful horse JMO
At least you are listening to your horse, and trying to see things from his perspective :) |
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