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angel2002
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
2502 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 12:45:28 PM
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After seeing that some people are actually advertising their mares embryos for sale in an Arabian publication yesterday I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on this??
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Angel
Passion Arabians
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karen d
Gold Member
United Kingdom
847 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 1:04:31 PM
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Think its ok if there is a top competition mare that cannot be brought out of training, but as for selling off eggs etc just for money, im not so sure i agree with this |
www.gkjarabians.co.uk |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 2:43:24 PM
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It gives us a chance to use mares that we would only dream about owning or to breed from mares that have a tendency not to carry full term or mares that reject ........... we sell sperm so don't see a any difference in the sales side ............ progress in breeding gives us so many opportunities now.
I know not everyone will agree ................... just my opinion. I am sure a AI would have been frowned upon once but look how it has allowed us to use some amazing Arabians Stallions from around the world.
Tracey
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www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 7:23:34 PM
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Really interesting you posted about this, as i was thinking exactly the same thing when i was reading my magazine last night. I felt quite strange seeing this when i read that breeders were selling embryo's. It seemed wrong, but i couldn't put my finger on why. In my head it seemed ok to use AI, but not embryo transfer, though maybe i have just been desensitized to it as it's much more common. Then, when i thought about it, i wasn't sure if i liked the idea of AI either, i think we're messing around with nature. I am not suggesting horses should "mate" in the same sentimental way humans do (loving, supposedly monogamous relationship blah blah), but i do feel that we should in some way be sympathetic to their natural breeding process, prior to, during and post mating. So many arabian mares reject their babies, i would be interested to know how many of those babies were born following AI, and compare the results with those rejected following a natural covering.
I imagine reason's for using AI are to protect both the parties from injury and exposure to infection. However surely a well socialised and respectful stallion knows how to approach a mare (though i'm guessing he has to take a few blows as a colt to understand this procedure!). I would only ever send one of my mares to a stallion with those qualities for her sake, and as an additional good temper test of his transfered dna to my future baby!
I'm heading a bit off topic here, but it does sort of relate to the opening question. I am not a breeder, though i have had experience with breeding stallions in the past, but i have little real breeding equine knowledge. What i do have is an idea in my head about what is right and wrong, that i believe is based on more than just sentiment. Look at the state of pedigree dogs, bulldogs are largely unable to breed through any other method than AI, their babies are delivered by c-section. When will we learn to stop messing with our beautiful animals? I find it all tragic and scary.
Embryo transfer, not for me.
Ros
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 7:37:47 PM
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Interesting mogwai ................... so what are your thoughts on AI and Embryo Transfer in humans ?
And my mare rejected last year and was covered naturally ............ but yes it would be interesting to know what percentage of rejections are AI foals and natural.
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www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 7:55:11 PM
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I'm not sure. It's would be easy to say i was against it because i conceived naturally, without problems and have 2 healthy children. If i badly wanted children and couldn't, i'm sure my ideas would be vastly different. I probably would have tried anything!
I suppose my main bug bear is about breeding for a specific aesthetic physical characteristic, rather than to grant someone their yearning, quite natural desire for a baby. To me AI and embryo transfer in equines smack of a growing trend to sterilize and alter our natural world for the purposes of fashion, financial gain and status. It seems ludicrous to me that an animal such as a horse is not able to reproduce naturally or run free in a field in case of injury to it's "perfect" physical form, so it can run round a show ring and collect medals.
Obviously i am not talking about everyone that uses AI as a form of reproduction, these are just my thoughts on a certain faction of not just arabian breeders, but breeders in general!
Ros |
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TOOTHLESS
Silver Member
Australia
350 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 04:01:45 AM
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| AI and Embryo transfer will result in the undermining the genetic variation within the breed, as certain lines become more popular. The genetic pool will deminish and this will have a detrimental effect. The Bedouin were not into inbreeding but I'm sure over the thousands of years the breed became more homogenous. Today with deliberate linebreeding , inbreeding, preservation breeding and straight this and straight that we're in trouble. Let's face it, today the arabian horse is a pet,a hobby, a toy,a business, a fashionable appendage and something that strokes the ego. The desert is gone asa daily challenge. Attilio |
Edited by - TOOTHLESS on 20 Feb 2009 07:46:48 AM |
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chris lowe
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
74 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 08:51:57 AM
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In response to toothless about the genetic pool diminishing. this has not been proved through ET. in bovine they found ET expanded the gene pool, due to the availability of creating more than one off spring in a year. this counter acted the narrowing o the gene pool through A.I. This still has to be seen if it will happen in Arabian horses. Multiple embryo transfers is still very new in the UK and is less than a decade old in other countries.
The sake of embryos has good and bad points towards it. Some smaller breeders who may not be able to afford to purchase a mare, may be able to purchase a embryo from that mare. thus giving opportunities to smaller breeders. obviously the use of ET for a mare that rejects her offspring or has some difficulties. just a couple of pro's
Big breeders may become more elitist leaving smaller breeders behind. the health implications that may occur through multiple ET. Constant stripping of embryo's may cause future breeding problems, still more research needs to be done on this. there are many more reasons against as well
I could go on the ethical side now, but knowing me is best not too.
There are so many areas that this topic can cover, a great question. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 3:23:01 PM
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Hi all, firstly I don't know much about ET but a friend & I were talking about it the other day after visiting a Selle Francais Stud (My friend breeds SF's) & being shown some ET foals, whose dams were competition mares. We both found it hard to believe that the foals don't take on the surrogate mares characteristics, or any genetics as it's their blood that runs through the developing foal (We were later told that often surrogate mares are purchased from the knackers yard). Can someone clarify this for me please? Anyway we were both uncomfortable with the concept of ET.
Also IMO I feel that there should be some sort of grading system in place for any breeding stock, i.e. conformational check, genetic check, etc to ensure faults aren't passed onto offspring to safe guard the Arabian breed (Don't want to end up like some dog / cattle breeds for example!). With ET I feel that there should be a limit to the amount of Embryos harvested each cycle / year from a mare to safe guard her well being. |
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