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Pasha
Platinum Member
 England
3622 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 10:49:01 AM
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The vet is coming back next week to re-test Pasha's bloods and if no change to his Insulin levels (not expected as Pergolide has had no effect and he is as bad as ever), then the vet wants to put him on Metformin!
I've looked on the Internet (something my vet hates me doing) and found worrying information regarding the side-effects and I am soo worried I do not want to risk giving it to Pasha! But what do I do?
I have found a product from America called HEIRO which seems to support what Jackie at Metabolic Horse has told me and seems to be supplied by qualified vets and has a good success rate! (I have tried the supplements from Jackie and Pasha won't eat them - I think because you have to feed them in such large quantities).
It is called HEIRO http://www.equinemedsurg.com/contact.html
I am really tempted to say to my vet that I want to give this a try before trying Metformin as I really think this should be a last resort due to the side-effects! Everything on this website makes sense! Pasha is Insulin Resistant, but I'm not convinced he has Cushings and the fact Pergolide has not made him any better supports this.
I know my vet is just going to say they are plugging their own product etc etc but I am so worried and I just want my boy back sound again!
Any thoughts/experiences with either of these?
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 11:18:09 AM
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Your vet is only likely to reccomend licensed products which can prove they are effective e.g. the Metformin, which is widely used to treat insulin resistance in humans. It would not be widely used if side effects were very troublesome. The main thing I would want to find is data on it's succesful use in equines, as it is not produced in an equine formula as far as I'm aware?
The HEIRO is not a licensed product so there is no requirement for it to prove it is effective or for it to be tested for or list any possible side effects.
We need to be able to trust that the drugs prescribed by vets will do "what it says on the tin", so their dispensing laws are quite strict.
Looking at the ingredients of HEIRO, there must be similar products on the shelf in this country that you can try?
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 12:41:04 PM
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| Thanks ella, that is common sense and what my vet would say!! I think the 'active' ingredient is Magnesium which is what Jackie at Metabolic Horse told me to give him but I can't get him to eat it!! He seems fine with the "processed supplements" i.e. one measure or two, but natural stuff that has to be fed in large quantities is a no-go! |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 2:03:14 PM
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Sarah - sorry don't know anything about Metformin but you really ought to try MagFluid from Roger at Trinity consultants. It's a liquid and you don't have to give very much so pasha might eat it if mixed with other things. Shah has no trouble eating it but he's a greedy pig so do start with a tiny amount and increase in small increments. It might take as long as 2-3 months before you start seeing the big changes (that's sometimes the problem, we expect immediate results) but you do notice improvement sooner and it's worth the wait. With it I have a healthy horse that can do endurance, without it he falls to pieces and won't even move off the yard. I'm actually amazed that it makes such a big difference to him.
Hope Pasha gets better soon  |
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 4:46:17 PM
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Thanks Shah - I really am trying to avoid keep swapping things around and now i've spoken to Jackie and she's told me all Heiro is, is Magnesium and Vitamin E, i'm inclined to stick with what I have - going to take Jackie's advice and add Speedi-Beet and introduce the magnesium gradually!
I am wary of anything that's a mixture as my vet said it can effect the drugs he is on, so anything i'm giving him I am running past the vet as well... as my vet says all of these people are in the business to sell their products and they will all claim different things!
I really don't know what to do at the moment as everyone is giving me different advice! It's a nightmare!
Sxx
P.S. Yes I do want "immediate" results as my poor boy has been lame and stuck in his box for 3 months... we cannot wait another 3 months in case something might work... i'm at the end of my tether  |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 6:36:35 PM
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| I don't blame you for wanting quick results - I would, too. If you try Metformin let us know how you get on, as trying to manage IR is so difficult it would be useful to have another thing to ask the vet about! |
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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 8:50:50 PM
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| Ella, take it from me that there are a very large number of people with diabetes who cannot take Metformin beacause of it's side effects. I am one of them. The side effects for me were VERY troublesome! |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 10:12:46 PM
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Hi Annette, it's no fun having drug side effects, I didn't mean they weren't troublesome for the individual, more that drugs don't survive in the market & certainly aren't used/sold in the volume Metformin is if the benefits aren't great and the side-effects low for the majority of users.
Are you advising Pasha not to use it?
You were prepared to try it on your doctor's advice weren't you?
You didn't say "no" without trying, because of it's known benefits!
Human diabetes is of course often very different to insulin resistance in the horse. There's no question of Pasha taking insulin instead..... |
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 07:58:02 AM
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| Just to add in case anyone wonder, MagFluid is magnesium in liquid format so more palatable and concentrated. It's used successfully on a lot of IR horses including my own. |
West Sussex |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 09:27:52 AM
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Thanks Shah x
I'm going to 'do both' - take my vets advice and start him on Metformin (if that's what he thinks is still the best way to go after his blood tests on Friday) and give him Magnesium and Vitamin E (recommended by Jackie from Metabolic Horse and active ingredients in Heiro).
I asked Jackie if she would give her horse Metformin and she said she would if the Magnesium and Vitamin E didn't work.... although I guess Jackie would have started this from day one and be 3 months down the line with it, whereas I would have to wait another 2-3 months to see if it had helped and I just cannot let my boy carry on suffering!
He is much worse last night and this morning so we've upped his Danillon to 2, as although we are worried about liver damage, realistically he is 22 in May and it's only for a couple of days until he sees the vet again - I can't watch him in pain, it breaks my heart!
He totally back confined to the box (not even coming out to be mucked out) until we've seen the vet again!
The strange thing is, and i've said this so many times, is that he looks soo well!! He is soo shiny and healthy looking and feels very well in himself, happily munching away on his diet hay, bless him! |
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