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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 11:51:47 AM
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That's all good news, especially that the vet is going to xray (fingers now crossed that that is OK!).
If you go to Jackie JA Taylor's web site (it's http://www.metabolichorse.co.uk/) and email her there, she should be able to send you an invite to the Yahoo group. I think you need to set up a Yahoo alias first but I'm not sure.
Edited cos it helps if I type metabolic right! |
Edited by - Karon on 12 Dec 2008 11:53:00 AM |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 12:41:20 PM
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| Thanks Debs and Karon - I have learned so much from on here and the internet and it is so encouraging to hear stories of horses who go on to lead normal lives for years!! My farrier was telling me about a horse that was diagnosed with Navicular at 6, Cushings at 15 and he is now 18 and going strong!! |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 11:01:58 PM
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hi sarah , sorry i havent been on but its been a busy week for me so dont get to log on much!
i am glad you are making progress, thats great news , with regards to the tablet situ , panche is eating his fine in his feed but then he loves safe and sound so that helps!"
if you are having probs best thing i have found is to mix in some apple juice it usually does the trick on most suspicous feeds!
i am pleased you had the x-rays done , its difficult to know exactly what the pronosis is when you cant see it!
i am turning panache out again but only for 2 hrs a day he is in the rest of the time on vastly soaked hay - i think diet is very important and i have to say the moment i cut it right back was when we made a leap forward in improvement
think of it as a child with a nut allergy! as my farrier said i;ll continue to keep him on safe and sound and the soaked hay it seems to be helping a lot - he is still sound we are having another test after xmas to see how he is improving and to be sure that one tablet is enough 
fingers crossed for now att least! all his buddies are pleased to see him back in the field and are keeping clse eye on him in his paddock , its lovely to see , keep us updated xx
much love sarah & panache  |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 07:40:21 AM
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hi pasha , thought i would refresh this subject as i hadnt heard fromm you ? how is your boy? panache made a return to work and is fine but of course its slowly does it - be nice to see how you are doing xx |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 1:57:41 PM
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I wish I had good news!! Following the 'positive' x-rays where his pedal bone was only 'slightly' rotated (vets words), he hasn't improved!!
We had bloods done again and his Insulin Resistance is still prevalent (vets words again). When I actually asked what the levels were, he said 67 (should be 50). I said that's really high and he said no, normally with Cushings it's in the 80s or 90s?!
So he put him on double-dose Pergolide (2mg a day) and will re-test the bloods on Feb 20th. In the meantime he's been going up and down hill, so I called him out again last week in a panic!
Surprise, surprise when the vet saw him he was much better!! BUT he listened to my concerns (lack of improvement, up and down in levels of lameness and his foot looked all twisted in) and took more x-rays!
He called the next day to say there hasn't been any further rotation to the pedal bone, but his colleague disagreed and thought it was slightly worse, so he's come out with the farrier and re-shoe him accordingly!
Vet and farrier re-shod him with the x-ray machine present on Friday.... I wasn't there but Mum said his pedal bone was 7 % (I think they meant degrees) rotated (What?! I thought he said it was only slightly rotated?! 7 sounds like ALOT). So the farrier trimmed and got it down to 4, then trimmed again and got it down to 1!
He was meant to get used to his new shoes over the weekend and then we were meant to call him with progress - he hasn't improved at all and has managed to twist a bit of the bar supporting the frog!! So waiting to hear back from vet and farrier!!!
The only tiny bit of good news is that he's very well in himself and did a 'rodeo act' in the school when the vet was looking at him!
Strangely, he seems to be worse in the mornings after laying down and better in the evenings (he has his pergolide split, 1 in morning, 1 in evening so cannot be drugs wearing off).... vet says it'll just take time! But we're seriously losing the will to live - it is emotionally exhausting (I can't begin to explain what it's doing to us seeing out beautiful boy's muscles wasting away before our eyes). We feel helpless to help him at the moment!
he has also taken to taking big chunks out of my arm!! But how can I blame him? He is fed up, we are fed up and there is nothing we can do about it!!
Sorry for the essay!! Feel a bit better though getting it off my chest!!
P.S. I did ask the vet about the Vitex supplement and possibly alternative medicine and he said NO WAY as it would interfere with the Pergolide
Sxx |
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Crusaders Angel
Gold Member
England
531 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 2:05:31 PM
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So sorry to hear that things are still  . Did you post anything on the Metabolic Horse forum?
Fingers crossed things start to improve soon, don't worry too much about the muscle wasting, look on it as a good thing, when he does get to be turned out he won't be able to cause too much havoc  .
I know, easier said than done.
Lucy |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 2:11:13 PM
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| No I still can't get onto the forum! I didn't keep my yahoo log-in details and now when I try to log-in I can't! Tried to re-register and it says I already exist!! AHRGG! |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 2:48:59 PM
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Aha - think i've found the problem!! Went into it to try and re-register, clicked on mail and my work error message 'access denied' came up! Work have blocked it and that's why I can't get it!  |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 3:03:22 PM
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As soon as you can get onto the Metabolic forum, it would be well worth posting on there with all the info you've got. Jackie will be able to tell you whether it's worth trying Vitex with pergolide - only one vet I spoke to about it said it might be worth trying Vitex, after I'd had Khafif on it for 2 years (original vet refused to even believe she'd got Cushings).
Are you soaking hay for 12 hours, and feeding a low sugar diet? I know getting the pergolide was the real turning point for Khafif in her weight but she still needed the diet to be spot on. Also have you tried him without shoes on to see what he's like?
67 isn't very high for insulin. Khafif's was off the scale until she had been on pergolide for a while - top measure of it is 250 I think, and she was always coming back as "250+" apart from the first test and once the pergolide had started to wokr. The vet who took the first one refused to believe she was IR even though that insulin was about 130 (normal is 50 or less). Luckily I did speak to a different vet who explained IR in words of one syllable to me and who was very supportive.
I'm not sure how bad a 7 degree rotation is but I feel it's not that good. Getting it back to 1 degree is much better but I wonder if he's taking some time to get used to that position of the pedal bone?
I know how frustrating it all is, especially when things don't seem to be working. Can you ask your vet what his ACTH came back as? I know Jackie will want to know that if/when you get on the forum, although it's not always conclusive anyway (Khafif's was really low despite her having every symptom in the book). I'm really sorry to hear he's not got a lot better, wish there was something I could do for you as I know you can feel so helpless. xx |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 3:22:05 PM
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Sorry things are still not moving forward. poor boy, no wonder he's fed up!
Try emailing Jackie direct from her website,
www.metabolichorse.co.uk
There's a phone number and email address there.
Ros |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 3:22:38 PM
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i thought i'd pm'd you back but didn't sorry!
i wish i had something helpful to say.
i do hope he gets better soon, keep plodding on, must be so fustrating |
pagey |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 3:25:08 PM
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Thanks Karon - I will try to get on the forum at home and will ask the vet what ACHT levels were.....
He's on 20Ib of Timothy (low starch, low sugar) haylege, split into two nets (one day, one night).... I think we will try soaked hay again as he hasn't really lost any weight at all being in!!
For his feed (2 a day) he has a small double-handful of Alfa-A Lite (Laminitis Trust Approved), 1 mug of Blue Chip Anti-Lam and 1 mug of D&H Lesuire Mix (Suitable for box rest) as the vet said he needs some form of protein and he won't eat the Alfa-A Lite and Blue Chip on it's own - guess it doesn't taste of anything!
On top of that he just gets his Equistro Flexadin (for his joints), 1 Danillon and 2 Pergolide.
He's not interested in his boredom breaker so no extra calories there!
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 3:38:37 PM
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| OMG just seen the Metabolic Horse's Office address is in my village - must have ridden past there a hundred times!!!!! Whata small world!! How do I not know her? |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 4:56:26 PM
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 hi pasha , i am so sorry - i didnt realise you were still battling -
can i comment on one thing? just a observation -
i would take him off that feed - the nut allergy - the laminitus is still there -
which means starvation
no mix , no haylage .
try dodson and horrell safe and sound 2 scoops a day nothing else , and soaked hay,only , he's still in the danger area and horses like that sadly need next to nothing however awful it may be -
is there another stable you can put him in ?
a change of rountine ?
this is what helped me
nightime , nashy was in his normal bedroom had soaked hay and 1/2 scoop of safe and sound thats it !
morning - feed 1/2 scoop , feed all horses turn out move nashy into , clean stable ( ramaks) for a different view during the day , with a soaked net maybe 2-3 hrs of soaking if he really wont eat a 12 hr soaked net!
this net would last till 1pm approx , then he would get skipped out and a lunctime net would be given ( small )
at 5.30 i would come down as normal to do all horses and move nashy into his ;bedroom' or normal stable , groom , rug , have nightime net and 1/2 scoop of safe and sound
horrid i know!
but when you have a horse on wieght watchers thats how it has to be!
the hardest thing with nashey now is still controlling his obsession with food - and i did that for 9 weeks!
yes , he has 1 peroglide a day and 2 scoops a day of safe and sound now but thats it -
no apples , treats etc and definately no mix!
no haylage either everything changes with cushings and i have now come to terms that my once fit horse is now a fat little shetland in disguise!
although i have clipped again and he was under all that fluff after all!
i have completely changed my mindset to feeding and less is definately more ...
with regards to shoeing we now have natural balance with the heels lower than normal to take pressure off the lami - its worked so far - 
this may be something you could try , its only my experience and i cant ever tell you what to do
but i do understand completely - big hugs and i will definately be logging much more to see how you are both doing xxxx |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 09:44:02 AM
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Thanks Sarah - to be honest I did think Pasha was having too much BUT the vet has insisted it is fine, that he needs some protein and that his laminits is very mild! Clearly not!!
We gave him a small bit of soaked hay with half his haylege last night but he wouldn't touch it!! I will try again with just the soaked hay only: he isn't a fussy horse at all, but if he really doesn't like something he won't touch it at all!
I've emailed Karen (Metabolic Horse) with full history, diet pre and post Cushings diagnosis and a full 'Cushings diary', she emailed back to say she'd be in touch very soon so i'm going to wait until she comes back to me before changing his diet - I am soo worried about colic!!
Unfortunately, I am on a DIY yard, Pasha has a really bad dust allergy and even the others mucking out set it off!! So unfortunately I can't put him in another box - they are on straw mostly! He also absoluetly hates changes to his routine and guards his own box like a Rottweiler 
I would also love to split his meals BUT I have to leave for work (in London) by 7:30 am and don't get back until 6:30 pm and there isn't anyone there during the day who I can ask.... can you tell i'm feeling a bit hopeless at the moment?
How do you give Nashy his tablet? Pasha has his in a handful of mix - he won't take it in a banana, eat it in his food or in a carrot! |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 10:51:46 AM
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Can anyone give him half a tablet in a piece of apple for you? Will he eat it in an apple? I did sometimes have to give Khafif hers in a handful of mix though!
Would you be able to give him linseed for the protein instead of a mix? It's safer for him and I don't think he's going to get enough protein in a couple of mugs of mix anyway - I'm sure he'd get more from the linseed. Also some horses can't even manage on Alfa A Lite - I know, I've got one She's fine on it when she's living out in bad weather (ie Dec - early Feb) but the rest of the time she'll go slightly footy on even the Alfa A Lite.
It might be worth you emailing Jackie again and seeing if she ahs time to have a face to face chat with you, it's sometimes easier than emailing as you can clarify things more easily. Wish she lived near me!! |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 12:20:03 PM
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Just spoke to mum and we both agree the vet is wrong about his feed, you guys are right (so thank you) and she has spoken to the farmer this morning about his hay - he has given her two different types to try (one crispie, one soft (her words)) and I have a bag of safe and sound waiting at the feed shop for me!!
Fingers crossed he eats the hay Thank you all so much for your help and advice!! We're going to really try to get the weight off and hope he improves xx |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 6:28:59 PM
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I really feel for you., i hope he starts to improve soon.
Have you tried Allen and page fast fibre? They seem to love it, it's easy to make up (and quick) and you can hide all sorts of medication in it because it's sloppy! Add a bit of mint to it if he still won't go for it, or a bit of apple juice or sauce (yum!). Some people swear by marmite sandwiches for giving meds!
I'd steer clear of the haylage if you can. I think it's quite acidic, and if there's any doubt at all, stick to hay. Some horses can tolerate it, others can't (the same with alfalfa products). I agree re the linseed. great stuff and will certainly add the required protein, or just the recommended amount of anti-lam/baileys low cal (mine love it!) or blue chip (if he'll eat it!).
I have also just started giving mine Yea sacc (ask Jackie about it). Great stuff, but your balancer may already have it in at the required amount so check. Probiotics create an acid environment, so stay away from them, but prebiotics (like Yea Sacc) create the right environment for good bacteria to flourish.
Best wishes
Ros x |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 8:58:19 PM
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| Big hugs to you and pasha have been reading these posts, just sorry I cannot advise you as not dealt with cushing for about 30 years, but I can tell you the allen and page fast fibre is really good and the horses love it, milly has lived on that till she came to France for over six months after breaking her jaw and looked fab on it |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 9:05:22 PM
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Thanks guys, still waiting for Karen to get back to me but I'm sure she will soon!
The good news is he loves the crispy hay and the Safe and Sound!! Started giving him his tablet in it to introduce it and I'll gradually change his feed over the next week - we've stopped the mix altogether!
He's also walking a little bit better - he seems to 'hobble' first thing in the morning and once he's started moving around isn't quite so bad, so he's been out for a pick of grass, which made his day |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 10:34:06 AM
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I forgot about Yea Sacc - I used to feed it to Khafif, too. Amazing how quickly you can forget things.
I did laugh at the description of your hay - crispy or soft!
The way he is when he comes out of the stable reminds me very much of Khafif, I used to walk her to the school or the track (both about 50 metres away at most) for a leg stretch once she was starting to improve and she'd hobble for a while, but once she got moving was a lot better.
Glad things are starting to look a little better and you're getting on track a bit more now. Mine love Safe and Sound and look at me as if I'm trying to poison them when I swap it to Happy Hoof! |
Edited by - Karon on 02 Feb 2009 10:37:41 AM |
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